Originally posted by Dondontan:
xXIron_fistXx is fine. He apologised. He is just being ignorant. You should read the troublemaking crap by the googoomuck in "Penalty after death" in this forum. He is all the way out to "kill".
I wouldn't say he is fine when he said he hate Buddhism stuff, note the keyword "hate"...did he apologize for being ignorant or hating others' religion?
I rather not take a look at that what googoomuck said in that thread cause I know what he is like since I debated with him in EH before...
Originally posted by RoyFang:I wouldn't say he is fine when he said he hate Buddhism stuff, note the keyword "hate"...did he apologize for being ignorant or hating others' religion?
I rather not take a look at that what googoomuck said in that thread cause I know what he is like since I debated with him in EH before...
True, posts of no value squanders our precious time
Originally posted by RoyFang:I wouldn't say he is fine when he said he hate Buddhism stuff, note the keyword "hate"...did he apologize for being ignorant or hating others' religion?
I rather not take a look at that what googoomuck said in that thread cause I know what he is like since I debated with him in EH before...
Compared him to googoomad, he is just nothing that harmful, that is why I just live and let live. But that googoomad is a different case. He can come all the way here in buddhism forum to start war and never want to stop.
Christian zealout/extremist/fundamentalist/taliban/Al Qaeda/JI
Originally posted by Rooney9:Christian zealout/extremist/fundamentals/taliban/Al Qaeda/JI
what to do, they are taught from the bible.
Unless that God they worship change it for the better to maintain peace with all in the world.
Originally posted by Dondontan:
what to do, they are taught from the bible.Unless that God they worship change it for the better to maintain peace with all in the world.
devas from the heavenly realm are just like us, subject to death and rebirth. only those who are enlightened will not. there is this brahma, a great deva being who thought that he was the first in this world and it was he who created everything in this world and universe.
Originally posted by Rooney9:devas from the heavenly realm are just like us, subject to death and rebirth. only those who are enlightened will not. there is this brahma, a great deva being who thought that he was the first in this world and it was he who created everything in this world and universe.
What is the name of this deva?
Originally posted by Dondontan:
What is the name of this deva?
brahma lor. he wrote inside his post liao
Originally posted by BanguIzai:brahma lor. he wrote inside his post liao
thot got many brahmas , someone told me one la
i confuse
Originally posted by Dondontan:
thot got many brahmas , someone told me one lai confuse
one brahma nia
Originally posted by BanguIzai:one brahma nia
is it? Thot I was told many brahmas.
Taoism also say that pan gu created earth, now it is brahma.
So who is the one? come own up. kee keeee keee
Originally posted by Dondontan:
is it? Thot I was told many brahmas.Taoism also say that pan gu created earth, now it is brahma.
So who is the one? come own up. kee keeee keee
dunno. but i oni know got one brahma nia. many devas though. devas just means godly beings, so perhaps pangu can be classified as deva not brahma
Originally posted by Dondontan:
is it? Thot I was told many brahmas.Taoism also say that pan gu created earth, now it is brahma.
So who is the one? come own up. kee keeee keee
I am not so sure if pangu is from Taoism. Taoism originally is not a religion. its teachings just on yin and yang and the dao te ching. later it was mixed with all sort of mysticism in china.
Brahma is a hindu god as Hinduism been in India long before Buddhism, so borrowed the brahma from Hinduism. Buddha did went up to the heaven where the Brahma resided. you have to read that sutra to understand. later the Brahma realised his folly and accept the Buddha's teachings I think.
Originally posted by BanguIzai:one brahma nia
Actually there are many brahmas. brahmas are devas that belong to the jhana planes.
The particular brahma that thought he was God was Maha Brahma. I'll post something on it.
Originally posted by Rooney9:I am not so sure if pangu is from Taoism. Taoism originally is not a religion. its teachings just on yin and yang and the dao te ching. later it was mixed with all sort of mysticism in china.
Brahma is a hindu god as Hinduism been in India long before Buddhism, so borrowed the brahma from Hinduism. Buddha did went up to the heaven where the Brahma resided. you have to read that sutra to understand. later the Brahma realised his folly and accept the Buddha's teachings I think.
Sorry, but sound like fairy tale.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Actually there are many brahmas. brahmas are devas that belong to the jhana planes.
The particular brahma that though he was God was Maha Brahma. I'll post something on it.
good thanks for the clarification. will read the article if posted.
In Hinduism, the deity Brahma is known as the Creator, and is a member of a trinity of gods. The other two are Shiva the Destroyer and Vishnu the Preserver. Brahma is credited to be the source of the Vedas, hence you might have noticed him carrying a book representing the Vedas on one of his hands.
The Hindu Brahma and the Buddhist Brahma(s) are quite different.
In Buddhism though, the Brahma have been described as a class (or classes) of higher level gods, and as opposed to Hindu beliefs there are many individual Brahma gods. One of the Brahmas known as Brahma-Sahampati was credited to have persuaded the newly enlightened Buddha to expound his teachings to the world.
Originally posted by Dondontan:
Sorry, but sound like fairy tale.
you are not well versed in Buddhism, so dun blame you. to each his/her own.
this is not important. what is important is the four noble truths. do you see any light in the four noble truths?
Baka Brahm�
Baka Brahm� (literally "crane-Brahm�") appears in the Majjhima Nikaya, where he is a deity who believes that his world is permanent and without decay (and that therefore he is immortal), and that therefore there are no higher worlds than his. The Buddha refutes Baka's claims, relating the concept of anitya or impermanence, but one of Baka's attendants (influenced by M�ra) asserts that Baka is the Creator, that those who praise him will be rewarded, but those who deny his powers will be terribly punished. The Buddha identifies the real speaker as M�ra, and states that he is free of his power.
Baka then states that it is futile to escape his domain (which he imagines to be universal), and points out that if the Buddha depends upon any of the things within Baka's cognizance, he will be within his realm, and Baka can act upon him as he sees fit. The Buddha responds that Baka does have this much power, but that there are realms which Baka knows nothing of, and that the Buddha's knowledge places him beyond Baka's power. Baka is at last convinced by a display of the Buddha's superior magical power and his ability to explain his present situation by reference to his past lives.
Baka was in a past life a human ascetic named Kesava; by various means he saved many people from destruction. For his meditative prowess he was born as a Bṛhatphala deva, and in successive rebirths gradually sank through the levels of the Rūpadh�tu until he became an ordinary Brahm�.
On another occasion, Baka believes that no monk or ascetic can enter his world (through supramundane powers of manifestation), but the Buddha himself and several of his disciples visit him to prove him wrong.
Baka Brahma appears in the Bakabrahma-sutta and the Brahmanimantanika-sutta.
On one occasion, he encouraged a woman whose son was a bhikṣu not to make offerings to Brahm�, but instead to give alms to her son (who coincidentally was named Brahmadeva).
The Saṃyutta Nik�ya contains verses said to have been spoken by Brahm� Sahampati, when he, together with Śakra, attended on the Buddha. He also attended upon the Buddha at his death, and verses attributed to him are included in the Mah�parinibb�na-sutta.
Of all the Brahm�s he seems to have been the closest to the Buddha.
Commentators explained the epithet of "Ever-young" by saying that he had chosen the appearance of a very young man, whose hair was still tied up in the adolescent style of five knots.
The name Mah�brahm�, more of a title than a name, appears in several suttas. It properly belongs to the deity or deities of the third world of the Rūpadh�tu, but may be used for even higher deities. A Mah�brahm�'s titles are: "Brahm�, Great Brahm�, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Ruler, Appointer and Orderer, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be." According to the Brahmaj�la Sutta (DN.1), a Mah�brahm� is a being from the Ābh�svara worlds who falls into a lower world through exhaustion of his merits and is reborn alone in the Brahma-world; forgetting his former existence, he imagines himself to have come into existence without cause. Beings who have been reborn from his world into the human world and are able to gain a memory of it, believe him to be the creator of the world. In the Kevaddha-sutta (DN.11), a Mah�brahm� is unable to answer a philosophical question addressed to him by a monk, but conceals this fact from the devas of his retinue so as not to lose face in front of them. Addressing that monk privately, he tells him to ask his question of the Buddha.
From an old post, but I re-edited.
There is a god who thought he was Creator, known as Maha Brahma. Maha Brahma was known to be "Brahm�, Great Brahm�,
the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing,
All-Powerful, the
Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Ruler,
Appointer and Orderer,
Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be".
In Buddhism, the Mahabrahma resides in the 1st
Jhana plane, the
first plane among the 8 jhanic planes. There
were higher realms
above where he lives that he was unaware of. Nevertheless all the devas below the 1st Jhana
planes considered
him as the Creator God. Buddha did not subscribe
to the belief of
such a notion that the Universe and its
Inhabitants were the
Creation of the Mahabrahma. He met with the
Brahma, asked him
questions which he could not answer. Eventually
he has taken refuge
in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.
The Buddha was also known to have said this,
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what's right did let wrong prevail!
When the previous universe was destroyed and
this universe was
formed, the Mahabrahma was first to be reborn.
Other subsequent
brahmas/devas were to be reborn. Maha Brahma mistaken that he created them by his intentions, whereby it is actually due to the karmas of the previous being that they are born in that realm. There is no creator in Buddhism, no first cause, only conditioned genesis, dependent origination, karma, causes and conditions.
2. 'Now there comes a time, brethren, when, sooner or later, after the lapse of a long long period, this world-system passes away. And when this happens beings have mostly been reborn in the World of Radiance, and there they dwell made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from themselves, traversing the air, continuing in glory; and thus they remain for a long long period of time.
3. Now there comes also a time, brethren, when, sooner or later, this world-system begins to re-evolve. When this happens the Palace of Brahmà appears, but it is empty. And some being or other, either because his span of years has passed or his merit is exhausted, falls from that World of Radiance, and comes to life in the Palace of Brahmà. And there also he lives made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from himself, traversing the air, continuing in glory; and thus does he remain for a long long period of time.
4. 'Now there arises in him, from his dwelling there so long alone, a dissatisfaction and a longing: "O! would that other beings might come to join me in this place! " And just then, either because their span of years had passed or their merit was exhausted, other beings fall from the World of Radiance, and appear in the Palace of Brahma as companions to him, and in all respects like him.
'And those beings themselves, too, think thus: "This must be Brahmà,, the Great Brahmà, the Supreme, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all, appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that are and are to be. And we must have been created by him. And why? Because, as we see, it was he who was here first, and we came after that."
6. 'On this, brethren, the one who first came into existence there is of longer life, and more glorious, and more powerful than those who appeared after him. And it might well be, brethren, that some being on his falling from that state, should come hither. And having come hither he might go forth from the household life into the homeless state. And having thus become a recluse he, by reason of ardour of exertion of application of earnestness of careful thought, reaches up to such rapture of heart that, rapt in heart, he calls to mind his last dwelling-place, but not the previous ones. He says to himself: "That illustrious Brahmà, the Great Brahmà, the Supreme One, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all, appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that are and are to be, he by whom we were created, he is stedfast immutable eternal, of a nature that knows no change, and he will remain so forever and ever. But we who were created by him have come hither as being impermanent mutable limited in duration of life.
'This, brethren, is the first state of things on account of which, starting out from which, some recluses and Brahmans, being Eternalists as to some things, and Non-eternalists as to others, maintain that the soul and the world are partly eternal and partly not.
DN 1 2:5
In reality, the universe works by the law of
Karma and he has no
control over the system of karma.
The Venerable Ledi Sayadaw, a highly renowned
Myanmar scholar-monk
of the first part of this century, gave a
careful analysis of the
powers of Maha Brahma in his Niyama Dipani (MB
pp. 138-39). He
states that although Maha Brahma can perform all
sorts of
transformations, he cannot actually create
independent creatures,
change the kammic law of cause and effect, or
keep anyone from
growing old or dying. Brahma can use his special
powers to
transport a man to the brahma plane for a short
visit, but he
cannot ensure that someone will be reborn there.
from http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol5no3f.htm:
When he came to know about Sakyamuni Buddha in
the human world who
speaks of the universal truth, he was curious
and arrived at the
human world with the intention to debate with
the Buddha. The
Buddha, with his ability to know another's mind,
knew his intention
and asked, "You claim to be the creator of the
human race and all
things in the universe, is this a fact?"
The king replied, "Yes, it is."
Buddha continued to question him, "Since you
created life, why did
you also create death? Is death created by you
too?"
The king paused for while, and thinking that
everyone loves life
and nobody welcomes death, he replied, "I did
not create
death."
Buddha asked him again, "All human beings
experience sickness, did
you create sickness also?" The king knew that
nobody likes to be
ill, and he replied, "I did not create illness."
Buddha asked many questions in succession, but
the king denied that
he created them. Eventually, he admitted that he
did not create the
universe and all things in it, and certainly not
the human race.
The king of heavens was full of regrets and he
felt ashamed.
Finally, he accepted Buddha as his teacher and
invited Him to
spread the Dharma in the heavens.
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-library/whybuddhism2.html
"To those who talked about the first cause
of this world, the
Buddha responded by saying that it is impossible
to find a first
cause since everything is changing,
interdependent and conditioned
by other things. Something that acts as the
cause in the present
may become the effect in the future. Later that
same effect may
again become the cause. Such phenomenon
continues ad infinitum. It
is called the universal law of Anicca or
impermanency.”
----------------------
In Visuddhimagga XIX:
Everywhere, in all the realms of existence, the noble disciple
sees only mental and corporeal phenomena kept going through the
concatenation of causes and effects. No producer of the
volitional act or kamma does he see apart from the kamma, no
recipient of the kamma-result apart from the result. And he is
well aware that wise men are using merely conventional language,
when, with regard to a kammical act, they speak of a doer, or
with regard to a kamma-result, they speak of the recipient of the
result.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits;
Empty phenomena roll on:
This only is the correct view.
And while the deeds and their results
Roll on and on, conditioned all,
There is no first beginning found,
Just as it is with seed and tree. ...
No god, no Brahma, can be called
The maker of this wheel of life:
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all.
Originally posted by Rooney9:you are not well versed in Buddhism, so dun blame you. to each his/her own.
this is not important. what is important is the four noble truths. do you see any light in the four noble truths?
Still learning about buddhism
Originally posted by Dondontan:
Still learning about buddhism
good articles here
good to learn
Just edited my previous post.
Setting in Motion the Wheel of Truth
(Dhammacakkappavattana-Sutta)(1)
(The First Discourse of the Buddha)
(For seven weeks immediately following the enlightenment, the Buddha spent his time in lonely retreat. At the close of this period he decided to proclaim the doctrine (Dhamma), he had realized, to those five ascetics who were once struggling with him for enlightenment. Knowing that they were living at Isipatana (modern Sarnath), still steeped in the unmeaning rigours of extreme asceticism, the master left Gaya, where he attained enlightenment, for distant Varanasi, India's holy city. There at the Deer Park he rejoined them.)
Thus have I heard:
On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Seers) near Varanasi (Benares). Then he addressed the group of five monks (Bhikkhus):
'Monks, these two extremes ought not to be practiced by one who has gone forth from the household life. (What are the two?) There is addiction to indulgence of sense-pleasures, which is low, coarse, the way of ordinary people, unworthy, and unprofitable; and there is addiction to self-mortification, which is painful, unworthy and unprofitable.
Avoiding both these extremes, the Tathagata (The Perfect One) (2) has realized the Middle Path; it gives vision, gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment and to Nibbana. And what is that Middle Path realized by the Tathagata….? It is the Noble Eightfold path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. This is the Middle Path realized by the Tathagata which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment, and to Nibbana.
The Noble Truth of Suffering (Dukkha), monks, is this: Birth is suffering, ageing is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering - in brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.
The Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering is this: It is this craving (thirst) which produces re-becoming (rebirth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding fresh delight now here, and now there, namely craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation).
The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the complete cessation of that very craving, giving it up, relinquishing it, liberating oneself from it, and detaching oneself from it.
The Noble Truth of the Path Leading to the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the Noble Eightfold Path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. (3)
"This is the Noble Truth of Suffering": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This suffering, as a noble truth, should be fully realized": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This suffering, as a noble truth has been fully realized": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before.
"This is the Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Origin of Suffering as a noble truth should be eradicated": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Origin of suffering as a noble truth has been eradicated": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before.
"This is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, should be realized": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth has been realized": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before.
"This is the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Path leading to the cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, should be developed": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Path leading to the cessation of suffering, as a noble truth has been developed": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before.
As long as my knowledge of seeing things as they really are, was not quite clear in these three aspects, in these twelve ways, concerning the Four Noble Truths (4), I did not claim to have realized the matchless, supreme Enlightenment, in this world with its gods, with its Maras and Brahmas, in this generation with its recluses and brahmanas, with its Devas and humans. But when my knowledge of seeing things as they really are was quite clear in these three aspects, in these twelve ways, concerning the Four Noble Truths, then I claimed to have realized the matchless, supreme Enlightenment in this world with its gods, with its Maras and Brahmas, in this generation with its recluses and brahmanas, with its Devas and humans. And a vision of insight arose in me thus: "Unshakable is the deliverance of my heart. This is the last birth. Now there is no more re-becoming (rebirth)."
This the Blessed One said. The group of five monks was glad, and they rejoiced at the words of the Blessed One.
When this discourse was thus expounded there arose in the Venerable Kondanna the passion-free, stainless vision of Truth (dhamma-cakkhu; in other words, he attained sotapatti, the first stage of sanctity, and realized: 'whatever has the nature of arising, has the nature of ceasing.'
Now when the Blessed One set in motion the Wheel of Truth, the Bhummattha devas (the earth deities) proclaimed: 'The Matchless Wheel of Truth that cannot be set in motion by recluse, brahmana, deva, Mara, Brahma, or any one in the world, is set in motion by the Blessed One in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi.'
Hearing these words of the earth deities, all the Catummaharajika devas proclaimed: 'The Matchless Wheel of Truth that cannot be set in motion by recluse, brahmana, deva, Mara, Brahma, or any one in the world, is set in motion by the Blessed One in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi.' These words were heard in the upper deva realms, and from Catummaharajika it was proclaimed in Tavatimsa... Yama... Tusita... Nimmanarati... Paranimmita-vasavatti... and the Brahmas of Brahma Parisajja... Brahma Purohita... Maha Brahma... Parittabha... Appamanabha... Abhassara... Parittasubha... Appa mana subha... Subhakinna... Vehapphala... Aviha... Atappa... Sudassa... Sudassi... and in Akanittha: 'The Matchless Wheel of Truth that cannot be set in motion by recluse, brahmana, deva, Mara, Brahma, or any one in the world, is set in motion by the Blessed One in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi.'
Thus at that very moment, at that instant, the cry (that the Wheel of Truth is set in motion) spread as far as Brahma realm, the system of ten thousand worlds trembled and quaked and shook. A boundless sublime radiance surpassing the effulgence (power) of devas appeared in the world.
Then the Blessed One uttered this paean of joy: 'Verily Kondanna has realized; verily Kondanna has realized (the Four Noble Truths).' Thus it was that the Venerable Kondanna received the name, 'Anna Kondanna' - Kondanna who realizes.
(With the proclamation of the Dhamma, for the first time, and with the conversion of the five ascetics, the Deer Park at Isipatana became the birth place of the Buddha's Dispensation (Buddha-sasana), and the Sangha, the community of monks, the ordained disciples.
Emperor Asoka, 281 years after the event, came on pilgrimage to this holy spot and caused a series of monuments and a commemorative pillar with the lion capital to be erected. This capital with its four magnificent lions upholding the 'Dharma Cakra', the 'Wheel of Dharma', now stands in the museum of Sarnath, and is today the official crest of India. The 'Dharma-Cakra' festival is still maintained in Sri Lanka.
Jawaharlal Nehru, the late prime Minister of India, writes: 'At Sarnath near Benares, I would almost see the Buddha preaching his first discourse, and some of his recorded words would come like a distant echo to me through two-thousand five hundred years. Asoka's pillars of stone with their inscriptions would speak to me in their magnificent language and tell me of a man who, though an emperor, was greater than any king or emperor.' The Discovery of India (The Signet Press, Calcutta), p. 44.
BTW I would like to add regarding Brahma.. that I have a friend who is a Dzogchen practitioner a.k.a Vajrahridaya whose past life is actually a Brahma.
I posted an article by him before in our forum which Thusness thinks is very well written: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/376891
He described being a vast and powerful God and time was entirely different from the way we as humans consider it. It felt very ancient, from a human remembering the experience point of view. He also, at that point though saw that there are infinite Brahmas and infinite universes.
Because of his past life as a Brahma, he had a tendency for God like pride and certain level experiences that reify a Godhead, or a center of the universe type of thing, it's blissful, but he know it's not the realization of Buddhahood.
He was into Hinduism previously and was able to enter very subtle states of samadhi and cosmic consciousness, but after recognising Rigpa and the truth of dependent origination through conversation with Buddhist teacher Loppon Namdrol and meeting his guru Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, he converted to Buddhism.