The Discovery of Awareness and its Impact

• An Eternal Now

  4 Apr 10, 02:34

  "It's probably one of the best, clearest and most comprehensive things I've read about the 'direct path'." - Thittato

  "This is really good stuff! (I just started reading it, and I think it's sensational.)" - Kenneth Folk
  

  "This is a really remarkable piece of qualitative research. It's not the sort of thing that gets a lot of attention these days, where brain studies using fMRI's tend to dominate the academic waterfront and media coverage of meditation research." - Gozen

  The link: http://baumanninstitute.org/Library/The%20Discovery%20of%20Awareness%20-%20Full%20Report.pdf

  Abstract

   

   

   

  Purpose: This study explored the first-person accounts of individuals involved in several contemporary awareness teachings regarding the nature and qualities of awareness, the relationship of awareness and its recognition to the alleviation of human suffering, and the impact that the discovery of awareness has across multiple life domains.

   

  Methods: Purposive sampling was employed and individuals selected who were either senior students of or teachers within several contemporary awareness traditions (n = 28). In consultation with several teachers, a semi-structured interview protocol was developed. Interviews, which took approximately 90 minutes to complete, were then transcribed and thematic analyses subsequently carried out by two independent reviewers.

   

  Results: Despite some diversity across respondents, a number of consistent themes emerged. In general, awareness was defined as that which knows or cognizes phenomena or the conscious space within which phenomenal experience arises and subsides. Several qualities of awareness were noted including vital, wide-open, unobstructed, indivisible, and spontaneously present. The recognition of awareness as the fundamental ground or basis of all perceptions was consistently seen as crucial to the resolution of human suffering for several reasons: a) awareness is undisturbed or unaltered by phenomena; b) by itself, the recognition of awareness in any moment appears to resolve the search for well-being; c) from the vantage of awareness, one recognizes that so-called negative mind states do not require management, control or alteration because they naturally resolve themselves owing

  to their impermanent nature; and d) the recognition that the context of awareness is ultimately inseparable from its dynamic content leads one to view phenomena conventionally labeled as disturbing, as essentially insubstantial, empty and non-

  threatening in nature.   

   

   

   

   

   

   

                                                                         2

  
  

  Along with its role in the resolution of psychological suffering, participants noted several other ways they felt that the realization of awareness had positively impacted their lives. These included: greater intimacy, ease and openness in relationships; diminishment or loss of self-identification and self-focus; an enhanced capacity for skillful and innovative responsiveness to life situations; a movement to be of benefit and service to others; and, insight into the fundamental roots of suffering and a corresponding natural arising of compassion for self and others.

   

  Conclusions: Based on these self-reports, the discovery of awareness as the essential basis or ground of all perception, and the experience that this context of awareness is ultimately inseparable from its phenomenal content appears to have important implications for our understanding of: 1) suffering, it causes and resolution; 2) the potential for human beings to realize a well-being and contentment that is increasingly less dependent upon particular circumstances or experiences; and, 3) the realization of greater equanimity and compassion, and the possibility that these qualities are actually innate, intrinsic to awareness or life itself rather than skills one must learn or cultivate. Taken together, these preliminary findings merit additional follow-up by psychologists, neuroscientists, and other researchers interested in understanding the factors that contribute to optimal

  human well-being and functioning.

   

   

   

• An Eternal Now

  5 Apr 10, 01:15

  There are gold nuggets everywhere in that report.

  Stability, if you want to call it that, comes about by recognizing awareness in all states and not just associating it with particular states or circumstances. Of course it even makes logical sense to say that what’s stable is what's present in everything. That's what makes it stable. That's really a key discovery, to see that it's never absent from any state, that it's not possible for awareness to be absent from any state.

   

  You’re not trying to hold onto any particular moment or trying to pin down awareness as looking any particular way because the next moment it will be something completely different!

   

  I think we end up missing something really fundamental, which is that every perception is inseparable from awareness. It’s not only the moments where the perception is one of an intensification of the sense of presence of awareness because then we’re back in putting it in a category when it’s actually all pervading, and saturating experience. If freedom’s going to be really free, you have to be free in the midst and in and as everything. That’s real freedom.

   

  Awareness is equally present in and as every flash moment no matter what the content of that moment is, which isn’t to say that we might not prefer to be in certain environments where people are talking about awareness and pointing to that and it feels like it’s coming more alive then in another moment where your partner’s pissed off at you or something, whatever it might be that might not be our preferred experience. But there it is in that too, and the whole host of responses that might arise in the face of that kind of an encounter.

   

  One mistake I see many people make (and I have done this myself) is having what we could call an interesting or very profound experience. Now, even if this is evidence that there is recognition of awareness, that we’re growing familiar with awareness, awareness doesn’t reside anywhere. Such experiences arise in, of, as, and through awareness, just like the experience of being totally nervous arises in, of, as, and through awareness. They are equal and even. So, to pinpoint a certain sensation or feeling or vision as “awareness” and then when it isn’t like that, to conclude that it’s not awareness is just a misunderstanding, that’s all. It is devastating if someone does lockdown on a certain perception, thinking that that’s awareness and if they don’t have that experience then they’ve lost it. You know it’s like the greatest lover you’ve ever had and then they’re gone and you’ll never get

   

   

   

  23

  
  

  them back, you know. And then you’ll pine and lament, want to kill yourself, and that’s not an exaggeration, I know people like that.

   

  Let’s say you go on a retreat and you have no external distractions, you’re just resting as awareness, resting in the ease of being. Then you leave the circumstances you’re in and the instruction you’re receiving and now you’re in your life and your wife says something that pisses you off, or the next circumstantial perception arises, a new perception - whatever you want to call it, all the labels, we might give experience. We think awareness is gone now because there’s a new perception. But once we really get that this new perception is also it, how can there ever be instability if every experience is the movement of that? Anything that comes can go because that’s the nature of phenomena, right? We can’t hold anything in place, including recognition of awareness.

   

  I had some amazing experiences – quite cosmic experiences – some quite psychedelic experiences at points, as well as some feelings of incredible bliss

  – absolutely overwhelming bliss, and obviously this is quite amazing because it is so out of the ordinary in terms of our normal everyday experience. But these experiences are nothing special – these experiences are also simply the dynamic energy of awareness. And if that’s the way it’s appearing in the moment, then that’s the way it’s appearing in the moment, which is great so you can enjoy that. But that’s not awareness. Awareness isn’t that blissed- out state. Awareness isn’t that psychedelic display. Awareness is also that feeling of feeling shitty. This is so common, that association, because the first time you really do recognize the fundamental inseparability of everything,

  it’s usually an incredible revelation, and it does feel great and you do feel a

  sense of relief. But then to associate awareness with that particular set of feelings or that particular experience is immediately to limit what can’t be limited – you’re deciding, “This is awareness.” You’re defining it. And yet by nature, it is completely un-definable – completely ungraspable. It is whatever is appearing, and if it’s appearing as bliss, it’s appearing as bliss, if it’s appearing as depression, it’s appearing as depression.  It’s incredibly powerful when you have that recognition in these afflictive or negative states and see that they are also this same ground of being.  That’s a huge recognition. And then there really is no chance of falling back or getting lost in a story of non-recognition of awareness because that story of non- recognition of awareness is evidence of awareness.

• wisdomeye

  5 Apr 10, 01:33

  thanks AEN!

   

   

• longchen

  5 Apr 10, 07:56

  Good article. Thanks for sharing.

  One thing that i discovered is that most articles do not talk about the impact of attachment leading to negative emotions. Yes, the emotions are also Presence. But the arising of the emotion are also due to attachments working behind the background, in the subconscious region of psyche.

  IMO, there can be a limit to how far one can go when soaked in an environment that is bombarded with attachments.

  Presence is everything. Conditions alters the experience of Presence. Need to take care of conditions as well.

  Without proper conditions, the initial awakening may not even arise, although all along 'Reality is like that'.

  Just a sharing.. and its just personal opinion. Better to find out for oneself.

  Hope for more discussions. Thanks.

   

• geis

  5 Apr 10, 09:17

  Originally posted by longchen:

  Good article. Thanks for sharing.

  One thing that i discovered is that most articles do not talk about the impact of attachment leading to negative emotions. Yes, the emotions are also Presence. But the arising of the emotion are also due to attachments working behind the background, in the subconscious region of psyche.

  IMO, there can be a limit to how far one can go when soaked in an environment that is bombarded with attachments.

  Presence is everything. Conditions alters the experience of Presence. Need to take care of conditions as well.

  Without proper conditions, the initial awakening may not even arise, although all along 'Reality is like that'.

  Just a sharing.. and its just personal opinion. Better to find out for oneself.

  Hope for more discussions. Thanks.

   

  firstly thanks AEN for sharing this very important article.

  second thanks longchen for bringing forth this important teaching. from my experience conditions are the most important aspects of practice.

  however, it is very difficult for most people as we live our lives as a wet matchstick and the automatic actions continue to create conditions that will keep the matchsticks wet. yet it will be these conditions that will bring about events with the potential to suddenly dry up the matchstick and ignite a fire.

  once the matchstick is on fire, slowly one will see everything around the environment as conditions for practice. some attachments will slowly lose their grip one by one along the way as one resolves to live according to the Noble Eightfold Path. from this point on the new conditions will set in motion a new direction.

  however there will still be attachments that continue on, and these attachments have a way of presenting themselves so subtly that it appears to not have a big impact on the practice, creating a sense of contentment and its very difficult to work with these attachments. im facing this at the moment, any suggestion on this?

   

• An Eternal Now

  5 Apr 10, 14:54

  Originally posted by longchen:

  Good article. Thanks for sharing.

  One thing that i discovered is that most articles do not talk about the impact of attachment leading to negative emotions. Yes, the emotions are also Presence. But the arising of the emotion are also due to attachments working behind the background, in the subconscious region of psyche.

  IMO, there can be a limit to how far one can go when soaked in an environment that is bombarded with attachments.

  Presence is everything. Conditions alters the experience of Presence. Need to take care of conditions as well.

  Without proper conditions, the initial awakening may not even arise, although all along 'Reality is like that'.

  Just a sharing.. and its just personal opinion. Better to find out for oneself.

  Hope for more discussions. Thanks.

   

  I see... thanks. Can you elaborate more on 'take care of conditions'?

• An Eternal Now

  5 Apr 10, 15:29

  For me, I notice that if my mind or body is not really in optimum conditions... or that it's feeling very unwell, and mind can't focus, I can't really meditate very well.

  Yes, presence/awareness is still here 100%.... but there is no samadhi... I went to sleep instead (mind and body not feeling well, thought it'd be better to rest than meditate).

• longchen

  5 Apr 10, 18:38

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  I see... thanks. Can you elaborate more on 'take care of conditions'?

  Just my opinion only... For all you know, it may just be due to my own incompetence in certain areas of the practice.

  In the past, I thought once the non-dual occurs on a more regular basis... I should be able to be without much experience of struggle with respect to all aspect of one's life experience.

  As a lay practitioner, one have family and other relations to relate to. Others, may not necessarily share the same aspirations as that of a serious practitioner. Notwithstanding that, what one does will inevitably be interwined with the close relations. Decisions are interwined.... many a times one may not be fully agreeable with certain decisions...

  Perhaps, that is why some kind of renunciation is still necessary.

• geis

  5 Apr 10, 20:02

  Originally posted by longchen:

  Just my opinion only... For all you know, it may just be due to my own incompetence in certain areas of the practice.

  In the past, I thought once the non-dual occurs on a more regular basis... I should be able to be without much experience of struggle with respect to all aspect of one's life experience.

  As a lay practitioner, one have family and other relations to relate to. Others, may not necessarily share the same aspirations as that of a serious practitioner. Notwithstanding that, what one does will inevitably be interwined with the close relations. Decisions are interwined.... many a times one may not be fully agreeable with certain decisions...

  Perhaps, that is why some kind of renunciation is still necessary.

  hi longchen, sorry i misunderstood the context of your first sharing.

  this aspect of conditions have been a big part of confusion for me since i started practicing in 2007, and especially so since im working in the financial industry. somehow reconciliation seems impossible.

  my search for some relief has recently brought me to a book by Jack Kornfield, im still in the midst of reading it but already the load is lighter now and im able to start integrating daily practice and work better.

  been reading and enjoy learning alot from your sharing, hope there will be more sharing in this area from your experience. following is an excerpt from the book taken from http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Buddhism/2000/06/After-The-Ecstasy-The-Laundry.aspx:

  Home > Faiths & Prayer > Buddhism > After the Ecstasy, the Laundry

  After the Ecstasy, the Laundry

  Enlightenment is not an end goal; it is just another moment in time.

  BY: Jack Kornfield

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  From "After the Ecstasy, the Laundry: How the Heart Grows Wise on the Spiritual Path" by Jack Kornfield.
  
  

  For almost everyone who practices, cycles of awakening and openness are followed by periods of fear and contraction. Times of profound peace and newfound love are often overtaken by periods of loss, by closing up, fear, or the discovery of betrayal, only to be followed again by equanimity or joy. In mysterious ways the heart reveals itself to be like a flower that opens and closes. This is our nature.

   

  The only surprising thing is how unexpected this truth can be. It is as if deep down we all hope that some experience, some great realization, enough years of dedicated practice, might finally lift us beyond the touch of life, beyond the mundane struggles of the world. We cling to some hope that in spiritual life we can rise above the wounds of our human pain, never to have to suffer them again. We expect some experience to last. But permanence is not true freedom, not the sure heart's release.

   

   

  Says one Western lama, "What became clear is that spiritual practice is only what you're doing now. Anything else is a fantasy."

   

   

  Every wise voyager learns that we cannot hold on to the last port of call, no matter how beautiful. To do so would be like holding our breath, creating a prison from our past. As one Zen master puts it:

   

  "Enlightenment is only the beginning, is only a step of the journey. You can't cling to that as a new identity or you're in immediate trouble. You have to get back down into the messy business of life, to engage with life for years afterward. Only then can you integrate what you have learned. Only then can you learn perfect trust."

   

  Like the monk in the ox-herding pictures [a traditional Zen parable], most of us have to reenter the marketplace to fulfill our realization. As we come down from the mountain, we may be shocked to find how easily our old habits wait for us, like comfortable and familiar clothes. Even if our transformation is great and we feel peaceful and unshakable, some part of our return will inevitably test us. We may become confused about what to do with our life, and how to live in our family or society. We may worry how our spiritual life can fit into our ordinary way of being, our ordinary work. We may want to run away, to go back to the simplicity of the retreat or the temple. But something important has pulled us back to the world, and the difficult transition is part of it.

   

  One lama remembers:

   

  "When I came back it was as if my 12 years of experiences in India and Tibet were a dream. The memory and value of those transcendental experiences was in some way a dream challenged by the culture shock of returning to my family and to work in the West. Old patterns came back surprisingly quickly. I got irritable, confused. I wasn't taking care of my body, I worried about money, about relationship. At the worst point I feared that I was losing what I had learned. Then I realized I couldn't live in some enlightened memory. What became clear is that spiritual practice is only what you're doing now. Anything else is a fantasy."

   

• geis

  5 Apr 10, 20:08

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  "It's probably one of the best, clearest and most comprehensive things I've read about the 'direct path'." - Thittato

  "This is really good stuff! (I just started reading it, and I think it's sensational.)" - Kenneth Folk
  

  "This is a really remarkable piece of qualitative research. It's not the sort of thing that gets a lot of attention these days, where brain studies using fMRI's tend to dominate the academic waterfront and media coverage of meditation research." - Gozen

  The link: http://baumanninstitute.org/Library/The%20Discovery%20of%20Awareness%20-%20Full%20Report.pdf

  Abstract

   

   

   

  Purpose: This study explored the first-person accounts of individuals involved in several contemporary awareness teachings regarding the nature and qualities of awareness, the relationship of awareness and its recognition to the alleviation of human suffering, and the impact that the discovery of awareness has across multiple life domains.

   

  Methods: Purposive sampling was employed and individuals selected who were either senior students of or teachers within several contemporary awareness traditions (n = 28). In consultation with several teachers, a semi-structured interview protocol was developed. Interviews, which took approximately 90 minutes to complete, were then transcribed and thematic analyses subsequently carried out by two independent reviewers.

   

  Results: Despite some diversity across respondents, a number of consistent themes emerged. In general, awareness was defined as that which knows or cognizes phenomena or the conscious space within which phenomenal experience arises and subsides. Several qualities of awareness were noted including vital, wide-open, unobstructed, indivisible, and spontaneously present. The recognition of awareness as the fundamental ground or basis of all perceptions was consistently seen as crucial to the resolution of human suffering for several reasons: a) awareness is undisturbed or unaltered by phenomena; b) by itself, the recognition of awareness in any moment appears to resolve the search for well-being; c) from the vantage of awareness, one recognizes that so-called negative mind states do not require management, control or alteration because they naturally resolve themselves owing

  to their impermanent nature; and d) the recognition that the context of awareness is ultimately inseparable from its dynamic content leads one to view phenomena conventionally labeled as disturbing, as essentially insubstantial, empty and non-

  threatening in nature.   

   

   

   

   

   

   

                                                                         2

  
  

  Along with its role in the resolution of psychological suffering, participants noted several other ways they felt that the realization of awareness had positively impacted their lives. These included: greater intimacy, ease and openness in relationships; diminishment or loss of self-identification and self-focus; an enhanced capacity for skillful and innovative responsiveness to life situations; a movement to be of benefit and service to others; and, insight into the fundamental roots of suffering and a corresponding natural arising of compassion for self and others.

   

  Conclusions: Based on these self-reports, the discovery of awareness as the essential basis or ground of all perception, and the experience that this context of awareness is ultimately inseparable from its phenomenal content appears to have important implications for our understanding of: 1) suffering, it causes and resolution; 2) the potential for human beings to realize a well-being and contentment that is increasingly less dependent upon particular circumstances or experiences; and, 3) the realization of greater equanimity and compassion, and the possibility that these qualities are actually innate, intrinsic to awareness or life itself rather than skills one must learn or cultivate. Taken together, these preliminary findings merit additional follow-up by psychologists, neuroscientists, and other researchers interested in understanding the factors that contribute to optimal

  human well-being and functioning.

   

   

   

  sorry AEN if ive digress too far from your initial thread

• An Eternal Now

  5 Apr 10, 20:53

  Originally posted by geis:

  sorry AEN if ive digress too far from your initial thread

  No it's fine... thanks for the sharing, very true :)

• An Eternal Now

  5 Apr 10, 20:54

  Originally posted by longchen:

  Just my opinion only... For all you know, it may just be due to my own incompetence in certain areas of the practice.

  In the past, I thought once the non-dual occurs on a more regular basis... I should be able to be without much experience of struggle with respect to all aspect of one's life experience.

  As a lay practitioner, one have family and other relations to relate to. Others, may not necessarily share the same aspirations as that of a serious practitioner. Notwithstanding that, what one does will inevitably be interwined with the close relations. Decisions are interwined.... many a times one may not be fully agreeable with certain decisions...

  Perhaps, that is why some kind of renunciation is still necessary.

  I see..

• longchen

  5 Apr 10, 21:11

  Hi Geis,

  Very nice sharing.

  Thank you :)

• wisdomeye

  6 Apr 10, 17:06

   

• wisdomeye

  6 Apr 10, 17:15

  hi geis,

  your point on integrating with life is very good. i have trouble with that too. I imagine everyone has.

  we have to practice in solitude, then go back to life to reintegrate, then solitude then reintegrate.  This kind of pattern is very helpful, in my view.

  Tibetan Buddhism emphasize alot on retreats.  Of course, in our context, most probably life-retreat is impossible, but then going on short retreats is possible and definitely very redefining in many sense.

   also jack kornfield pt is very good.  I think it can be one of the most disappointing highlights of our spiritual life to suddenly realise that you are not going somewhere and there is no escape from our daily hassles.  We have to deal with life and there are no false promises held out . 

  on the bodhisattva path, it is said that bodhisattvas do not cling to samsara, nor nirvana. Then, if we ask, what now, if there is no escape from life.  Then i would suggest that we turn life into as selfless an endeavor as possible for helping others and bringing positivity and benefit to this world.

   

   

• longchen

  6 Apr 10, 18:20

  Originally posted by wisdomeye:

  hmmm... longchen,

  you seem to be a great meditator, so i dun feel qualified to comment on your experiences.

  from my limited understanding, non-dual awareness, assuming what u r doing is truly non-dual awareness, shd indeed loosen the struggling factor.  But maybe that your stability is not yet firm. 

  other factors like orientating the external to your practice are still belonging to acts of hope n fear.  In fact, true practitioner try to go to difficult situations to practice, but that is after stability is firm.  sometimes, even sick also dun try to see doc. 

  if ur stability is not yet firm, can do some reorientating. Can also suggest accumulation of merit and purification.  Traditionally, this has been the way. Even people who have accomplished Dzogchen still do accumulation of merit.

  u know, i am sometimes hesitant to comment on this forum due to potential for misleading people-- very bad karma.  I am just a novice, hope anything i said is useful.  Ignore those not useful.

   

   

  Hi Wisdomeye,

  I really appreciate your input.

  Yes, non-dual really does loosen the struggling factor.

  Let me put it this way. What a practitioner see as practice is not what your spouse or close relations see it. Example of dichotomy...A practitioner will have to 'pretend' to appease the fears of your close ones. Now, pretending is not a great way to honesty, isn;t it. You have to pretend to enjoy a conversation when silence is the natural way. You have to coax to appease the wondering mind of close ones when letting go of the fears is what you think the way should be. These are really the easy examples.

   

  When one live with others who are not sharing the same state of mind, you have to pretend to keep things to their perceived sense of what is normal. What is normal is really madness.

  Many articles will write in a rather sweeping manner. When we go into the details, it is a whole different ball-game. I see the way forward as not being caught into any beliefs or concepts of how things should be... because there isn't any. The path we carve is entirely original and every challenge has no fixed correct answer.

  I hope i am being utterly honest here :)

  Perhaps, that is why some form of renunciation is required.

• geis

  6 Apr 10, 18:37

  Originally posted by wisdomeye:

  hi geis,

  your point on integrating with life is very good. i have trouble with that too. I imagine everyone has.

  we have to practice in solitude, then go back to life to reintegrate, then solitude then reintegrate.  This kind of pattern is very helpful, in my view.

  Occasional retreats, where u drop everything away and just be by yourself somewhere, is very helpful.  Then, u can just merge with the experience without much ado.

  Tibetan Buddhism emphasize alot on retreats.  Of course, in our context, most probably life-retreat is impossible, but then going on short retreats is possible and definitely very redefining in many sense.

   also jack kornfield pt is very good.  I think it can be one of the most disappointing highlights of our spiritual life to suddenly realise that you are not going somewhere and there is no escape from our daily hassles.  We have to deal with life and there are no false promises held out . 

  Although Buddha said in the 4 noble truths that there is nirvana/cessation, i think later on in the later turning of the wheel of dharma he said there is no need for cessation... on the bodhisattva path, it is said that bodhisattvas do not cling to samsara, nor nirvana. I think the first part about nirvana is a skilful means esp for those who are weary of suffering.

  Then, if we ask, what now, if there is no escape from life.  Then i would suggest that we turn life into as selfless an endeavor as possible for helping others and bringing positivity and benefit to this world.

   

   

  true true

  because i have yet to experience the various kinds of insights, i tend to use imagination to integrate practice into daily life.

  usually i imagine that all the people im in contact with and the roles im playing are 'specially' tailored to help in progressing nearer to liberation. i imagine that they are specially tailored because these are the areas that i may have missed out advancing in previous lifetimes. i imagine that the problems that are faced in work and relationships are the ripening of previous karma.

  yes a retreat once every few months is good, would like to go for one this year. on sundays when i have nothing on i will do a self imposed retreat in my room, and usually after that mondays always seems to be the best day haha. also a spirit of renunciation is possible everytime we meditate. before sitting i also prepare by saying i renounce everything for this session.

   

• geis

  6 Apr 10, 18:55

  Originally posted by longchen:

  Hi Wisdomeye,

  I really appreciate your input.

  Yes, non-dual really does loosen the struggling factor.

  Let me put it this way. What a practitioner see as practice is not what your spouse or close relations see it. Example of dichotomy...A practitioner will have to 'pretend' to appease the fears of your close ones. Now, pretending is not a great way to honesty, isn;t it. You have to pretend to enjoy a conversation when silence is the natural way. You have to coax to appease the wondering mind of close ones when letting go of the fears is what you think the way should be.

  When one live with others who are not sharing the same state of mind, you have to pretend to keep things to their perceived sense of what is normal. What is normal is really madness.

  Many articles will write in a rather sweeping manner. When we go into the details, it is a whole different ball-game.

  I hope i am being utterly honest here :)

  Perhaps, that is why renunciation is required.

  my heartfelt agreement here.

  in my course of work i have to do alot of coaching (usually is counselling) for consultants and also clients. and day in day out have to face this situation.

  after a lot of practice i realize many times silence is still the key. most kinds of talk is just an avenue for one to vent out emotions, a response may not be necessary.

  a constant reminder that the practice is on the processes behind the interaction and not on the content does help. still the content usually is the priority for the other party, and this is where some balance is required. its not easy.

  on a positive note, another thing i encountered is when i do coaching, i was able to relate the causes and their emotions better to the extent they find it eerie like i can read their minds. and from noting practice there are occasions where some non verbal cues are picked up and i was able to respond aptly. sometimes i may have to pretend to not notice anything hehe.

  generally it can be quite fun doing the daily interactions, and understanding the problems that others are facing and their inability to see the dhamma does make me feel sad and forgiving.

• longchen

  6 Apr 10, 20:38

  Originally posted by geis:

  my heartfelt agreement here.

  in my course of work i have to do alot of coaching (usually is counselling) for consultants and also clients. and day in day out have to face this situation.

  after a lot of practice i realize many times silence is still the key. most kinds of talk is just an avenue for one to vent out emotions, a response may not be necessary.

  a constant reminder that the practice is on the processes behind the interaction and not on the content does help. still the content usually is the priority for the other party, and this is where some balance is required. its not easy.

  on a positive note, another thing i encountered is when i do coaching, i was able to relate the causes and their emotions better to the extent they find it eerie like i can read their minds. and from noting practice there are occasions where some non verbal cues are picked up and i was able to respond aptly. sometimes i may have to pretend to not notice anything hehe.

  generally it can be quite fun doing the daily interactions, and understanding the problems that others are facing and their inability to see the dhamma does make me feel sad and forgiving.

  Thanks Geis for this very nice sharing.

  Really appreciate it.

   

• wisdomeye

  6 Apr 10, 22:46

  Originally posted by longchen:

  Hi Wisdomeye,

  I really appreciate your input.

  Yes, non-dual really does loosen the struggling factor.

  Let me put it this way. What a practitioner see as practice is not what your spouse or close relations see it. Example of dichotomy...A practitioner will have to 'pretend' to appease the fears of your close ones. Now, pretending is not a great way to honesty, isn;t it. You have to pretend to enjoy a conversation when silence is the natural way. You have to coax to appease the wondering mind of close ones when letting go of the fears is what you think the way should be. These are really the easy examples.

   

  When one live with others who are not sharing the same state of mind, you have to pretend to keep things to their perceived sense of what is normal. What is normal is really madness.

  Many articles will write in a rather sweeping manner. When we go into the details, it is a whole different ball-game. I see the way forward as not being caught into any beliefs or concepts of how things should be... because there isn't any. The path we carve is entirely original and every challenge has no fixed correct answer.

  I hope i am being utterly honest here :)

  Perhaps, that is why some form of renunciation is required.

   

• wisdomeye

  6 Apr 10, 22:50

  Originally posted by geis:

  yes a retreat once every few months is good, would like to go for one this year. on sundays when i have nothing on i will do a self imposed retreat in my room, and usually after that mondays always seems to be the best day haha. also a spirit of renunciation is possible everytime we meditate. before sitting i also prepare by saying i renounce everything for this session.

  wow geis, i admire your style. Very good. I am so lazy compared to you. Please keep up!  i must really pull up my socks.

   

• longchen

  7 Apr 10, 10:50

  Originally posted by wisdomeye:

  hi longchen,

  articles or meditation manuals will always be sweeping.  That's why a teacher's instructions is more specific and situation-oriented. In Dzogchen tradition, called menngak, and this is very impt.  sometimes, menngak can even be opposite from manuals cos that's what u need at that point, for eg, ask us to do something that is full of attachment, when we thot we shd be going for non-attachment.  that's why teacher badly needed, their menngak based on their own experience and realisation.

  as for your practice situation. Many people have this problem. Many realised masters also separated with their spouses over differences.  anyway, i'm not saying you have to divorce or something, please dun misinterpret, i am jus saying such things are there. 

  i wld also like to add that at some point when awareness is stable, thots and emotions become enhancement to the practice, does not detract from the practice.  some of the realised people i know are very animated people.  can talk alot also no problem, i dun think it detracts from their practice. Sometimes, u look at them, like very excited and gan cheong... inside, nothing move...(this my assumption) haha.. maybe as u practice, u will find out that when thots come even better still, at that time, u will not be looking for caves, maybe looking for cities and even discotheques... keke

   

  anyway, all above my interpretation and not sure... please pick and choose as u need.

   

  The sharing is most appreciated.

  Thanks :)

• An Eternal Now

  7 Apr 10, 16:25

  While having a conversation with a friend yesterday I noticed something.

  There is just one thought happening spontaneously, one action happening spontaneously at every moment.. but the sense that a 'me' led to a thought or action is actually an illusion... is also just an arising thought... therefore any effort or action to control thoughts or do anything is also the result of the illusion, theres actually just a presently arising thought. There is always only presence and spontaneous arising... theres nothing 'we' can ever do or have ever done.

  The sense that theres something that must be done to experience presence is also really just story, actually there is always just a thought, an action arising in presence.. only in concepts do we create a sense of distance and a need and a 'doer' to fulfill certain
  things like getting rid of certain thought or feeling to 'reach' presence.. in direct nonconceptual looking one sees there is just always just presence and spontaneous arising.

• wisdomeye

  7 Apr 10, 18:29

  since thots do not have a controller, sometimes, we get so guilty or self-judgemental over our own bad behavior/thots or whatsoever, does that mean that since there is actually no need for this? because in a sense, it is not really "our" fault.  i mean since there is no "I".

   

• An Eternal Now

  7 Apr 10, 18:37

  Originally posted by wisdomeye:

  since thots do not have a controller, sometimes, we get so guilty or self-judgemental over our own bad behavior/thots or whatsoever, does that mean that since there is actually no need for this? because in a sense, it is not really "our" fault.  i mean since there is no "I".

   

  Repentance is necessary. But one sees that deeds are done but there is no doer... you are repenting for the deeds, but you are not adding or clinging on to a guilty self image.