some questions:
1. Do States as well as State Stages happen or unfold in a particular sequence (ie. Gross Awareness -> Subtle Awareness -> Causal Awareness -> Non-Dual) ?
2. If so, would it be helpful and faster to tailor practices to address each "body"/"state" as they unfold sequentially?
For example:
Gross Body: Gain concentration in the gross body through concentration exercises on breath, mantra, physical sensations, etc.
Subtle Body: Using your built up concentration, target your awareness in your subtle or interior body by doing dream practices as well as some form of meditation targeting subtle or interior experiences. I happen to be a fan of Shinzen Young http://shinzen.org/ who has variousvipassana practices for this some of which are especially good for interior experience are: Focus In, Focus on Change, Focus on Rest and Focus on Positive. But you could use any other kind of interior meditation like visualization, dream yoga etc.
Causal Body: Then once you can maintain some stability within your Subtle experience (lucid dreams, astral projection, visualization etc.), then move on to causal practices (ie. Shinzen Young's Focus on Nothing ((return to the Source)), Self Inquiry, Shikantaza, etc.)
Non-Dual: Finally do practices more focused on unifying the Subject/Object differentiation. (ie. Shinzen Young's Focus Out, Self Inquiry, Big Mind etc.)
3. Does awakening typically blossom in this linear way? I've heard of many stories of spontaneous awakenings. I have a feeling this is more the exception than the rule though. Or is it just different depending on the individual?
I realize this outline is very conceptual and perhaps leaves out many insights but I'm just trying to come up with a training plan, so to speak, to wake up. From a lot of the material I've read the typical training seems a bit random and you either get "lucky" or not.
Perhaps this is the way the paths have been teaching to approach Enlightenment all along, and I'm just now putting it together. Any help would be appreciated. It seems like, as old as the technology to awaken is, it still seems primitive to me in many ways and perhaps is in need of a operating system upgrade. ;) For the goal of coarse is to awaken the most people, in the deepest way possible, in the fastest time possible is it not?
Again any comments or insights that could help me and others on our paths would be greatly appreciated.
I see you are following the Ken Wilber's model of the states of consciousness.
When I think of Gross or Nature Mysticism, what comes to mind is the experiences of total unity without inside and outside with regards to nature.
That means in a natural setting or environment, while looking at a tree, the sunrise, etc... suddenly the sense of an inner-outer division dissolve and for a moment you BECOME the tree, the seeing, the sunrise, the environment. It is a temporary non-dual experience with relation to gross forms. However it is not non-dual insight.
When I think of Subtle mysticism, what comes to mind is the Vajrayana practice of visualizing and attaining union with a deity. Unlike gross mysticism, I do not have experience with this because I do not practice Vajrayana.
When I think of Causal or formless mysticism, you are right that what comes to mind is the practice of self inquiry ala Ramana Maharshi style. This is emphasized in Advaita, but also in some schools of Buddhism, some form of Zen emphasize this like Ch'an Master Hsu Yun's teaching. It leads to the I AM/Witness realisation.
When I think of Non-Dual mysticism, I think of some kind of inquiry into the relationship of presence/awareness and phenomena, or some kind of koan, that leads to the realisation of the unity of absolute and relative. This results in non-dual realisation. Similarly, Vipassana practice leads to non-dual realisation at the later phase of one's practice (Anagami-hood and Arhatship)
One *does not* need to climb the above in linear stages. First of all, gross mysticism and subtle mysticism, the resultant experience cannot be considered a form of realisation or enlightenment. But the Causal realisation of the I AM is a form of realisation as there is a direct insight into luminosity and one's true identity. Similarly, Non Dual is a form of realisation/enlightenment. Therefore the I AM and Non Dual are listed in Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
You *do not* have to go through gross mysticism, though from my experience by simply practicing mindfulness it is likely you will have glimpses of unity in a natural setting similar to gross mysticism. You *do not* have to go through subtle mysticism to get enlightenment either, as many Buddhist teachings do not go through visualisation on deity, etc as well.
And you even *do not* have to go through the Causal level of realisation. Though many teachings like those of Advaita actually goes through the Causal level first. Our moderators Thusness and Longchen went through the Causal level first. I, too, am going through this level first and I am focusing on self-inquiry.
However this is not the case for everyone: there are in fact practitioners who skipped the causal level of realisation and gone straight to Non Dual realisation. For example Vipassana practitioners like Daniel Ingram who actually reached non dual realisation and the realisation of anatta without having gone through the I AM phase.
However the Gross Mysticism, Subtle Mysticism, Causal Mysticism can be helpful parts of the path and can bring some important insights. For example, having insight into I AM will make it faster for other insights to come as one has direct insight into one's essence/luminosity... that is why it is called 'direct path' whereas Vipassana is considered gradual, because the insight into luminosity comes only at a later stage in that path. This however does not mean Vipassana is any less effective, it can still lead to enlightenment at a very fast pace. Also someone who has gone through I AM then Non Dual may later come to value Vipassana practice as well.
That said, Non-Dual is still not the end stage of realisation. Non Dual is only Stage 4 in Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment. There is still the realisation of Anatta (Stage 5) and the realisation of Emptiness (Stage 6) - so if you follow Ken Wilber's model, you still have not reached Buddhist enlightenment. Ken Wilber is still at Stage 4 in Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment.
A conversation with Thusness 4 years ago:
(note: Fulcrum 10 = Non Dual, Fulcrum 9 = I AM/Witness/Causal, Fulcrum 8 = Subtle, Fulcrum 7 = Gross)
• Session Start: Sunday, August 27, 2006
(12:12 PM) Thusness: Read ur email about the ken wilber page 250.
(12:12 PM) AEN: ok wait
(12:13 PM) AEN: icic
(12:13 PM) Thusness: fulcrum 10 is the peak of no-self (non-dual) and beginning to understand emptiness as it is but not necessary understood the meaning of emptiness.
(12:13 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:14 PM) Thusness: to date, ken wilber's description of enlightenment is closest to my description.
(12:14 PM) Thusness: it is from fulcrum 9-10
(12:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:15 PM) Thusness: except that fulcrum 7-9 is waking, dreaming and dreamless is what i told u should not be followed.
(12:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:15 PM) Thusness: let's take longchen for example, from his understanding and my description to him, where do u think i am leading him?
(12:16 PM) AEN: emptienss?
(12:16 PM) AEN: no-self and emptiness
(12:16 PM) AEN: lol
(12:16 PM) Thusness: yes
(12:16 PM) Thusness: so where was he when he first communicated with u?
(12:16 PM) AEN: i nterms of falcrum?
(12:17 PM) Thusness: yeah
(12:17 PM) AEN: falcrum 9-1?
(12:17 PM) Thusness: yes
(12:17 PM) Thusness: did he go through 7 and 8?
(12:17 PM) AEN: no
(12:18 PM) Thusness: okie then how is one to experience fulcrum 9? That is what i disagree.
(12:18 PM) Thusness: in fact true enlightenment should only start at 9.
(12:18 PM) Thusness: and a glimpse of our nature starts at 9.
(12:18 PM) AEN: oic
(12:19 PM) AEN: u mean he said otherwise?
(12:19 PM) Thusness: 7 can be the result of mindfulness
(12:19 PM) AEN: which page is 7
(12:19 PM) Thusness: page 7?
(12:19 PM) Thusness: i mean fulcrum 7
(12:19 PM) AEN: oh ok found it
(12:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:20 PM) Thusness: mindfulness can lead us to fulcrum 7. That is the result of being mindful and non conceptual.
(12:20 PM) Thusness: but our true nature isn't experience...means there is no this sudden awareness of "I AMness".
(12:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:21 PM) Thusness: this "I AMness" is a natural progression when the karmic propensities is still very strong and yet there is a sudden glimpse of our nature.
(12:21 PM) AEN: icic
(12:21 PM) Thusness: at that moment, one is not able to discern what is the meaning of no-self
(12:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:22 PM) Thusness: why no doership and why no I. Because the experiene of that Presence (They experience it as ISness, as Pure Presence but yet still fall back to 'Self') because of karmic propensities and habitual energy.
(12:23 PM) Thusness: They were being misled by the hypnotic spell of 'I'.
(12:23 PM) Thusness: and how to break this spell?
(12:23 PM) Thusness: that is the question.
(12:23 PM) AEN: icic
(12:23 PM) Thusness: the experiene is there but there is no clarity, this is the problem.
(12:23 PM) AEN: oic
(12:24 PM) AEN: eh btw page 184 about falcrum 7,there is some sort of nondualism experience?
(12:24 PM) Thusness: so one must know exactly the stage to lead to the next stage by carefully breaking that spell of identification.
(12:24 PM) AEN: 'u're on a nature walk.... and suddenlyt you look at a beautiful mountain and wham - there is no looker - just the mountain'
(12:24 PM) AEN: icic
(12:24 PM) Thusness: yes that is experience of clarity without knowing the nature.
(12:24 PM) AEN: oic
(12:25 PM) Thusness: it is a stage
(12:25 PM) AEN: not 'i amness'?
(12:25 PM) Thusness: yes..
(12:25 PM) Thusness: means one can experience clarity but has no understanding of AMness.
(12:25 PM) AEN: o hmm last time i tink maybe i experience falcrum 7
(12:25 PM) AEN: hahaha
(12:25 PM) Thusness: he must continue to practice
(12:25 PM) AEN: icic
(12:25 PM) Thusness: yeah...
(12:26 PM) Thusness: when u told me about the clarity about the awareness taht everything seems so clear and real.
(12:26 PM) Thusness: this is come and go.
(12:26 PM) Thusness: and i told u to see, the scenery but no one there.
(12:26 PM) AEN: icic
(12:26 PM) Thusness: that is the vividness, the clarity...all these are the attributes of awareness
(12:27 PM) Thusness: now i tell u to experience the calmness to gather strength
(12:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:27 PM) Thusness: stillness of body and mind
(12:27 PM) Thusness: this is tranquility and calmness, not clarity and luminosity
(12:27 PM) AEN: icic
(12:28 PM) Thusness: so one can experience clarity and vividness but the path of enlightenment hasn't start yet.
(12:28 PM) AEN: oic
(12:28 PM) Thusness: there must be this intuitive understanding of "I AM" then it begins.
(12:29 PM) Thusness: like echkart tolle
(12:29 PM) AEN: icic
(12:29 PM) Thusness: like longchen and ken wilber...all these ppl experience the 'Self'.
(12:29 PM) Thusness: the 'Self' is a misunderstood version.
(12:30 PM) AEN: oic
(12:30 PM) Thusness: When I told longchen first there is no I, no self yet there is Presence, he confused.
(12:30 PM) Thusness: remember?
(12:30 PM) AEN: ya
(12:31 PM) Thusness: then he was thinking can one experience to a high stage but yet is still ignorance of the source...this is the question he asked bob.
(12:31 PM) AEN: oic
(12:31 PM) Thusness: remember?
(12:31 PM) AEN: not too sure
(12:31 PM) AEN: which post?
(12:31 PM) Thusness: hmm....what is his site url>
(12:31 PM) Thusness: heheeh
(12:31 PM) AEN: wait
(12:31 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com
(12:31 PM) Thusness: u r the one that send me the post what.
(12:32 PM) Thusness: kok ur head
(12:32 PM) Thusness: lol
(12:32 PM) AEN: hahaha
(12:32 PM) AEN: i mean around when?
(12:53 PM) Thusness: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1118915725
(12:54 PM) Thusness: ahaha....
(12:54 PM) Thusness: me of Me.
(12:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:54 PM) Thusness: wah...take so long to look for this post that u send me.
(12:55 PM) AEN: yea hahaha... thanks for looking
(12:55 PM) Thusness: « Reply #8 on Oct 24, 2005, 12:39am »
(12:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:56 PM) Thusness: he was asking bob can one be so aligned with vast absolute yet not aware of the thinker of thoughts.
(12:57 PM) AEN: oic
(12:57 PM) Thusness: he doesn't dare to ask in religion/sects...
(12:57 PM) Thusness: lol
(12:57 PM) AEN: haha why??
(12:57 PM) Thusness: he said so what...
(12:57 PM) AEN: yea i mean y he wldnt dare
(12:58 PM) Thusness: paiseh to ask lah...later say like all ppl in Buddhism forum not enlightened.
(12:58 PM) AEN: hahaha
(12:58 PM) AEN: icic
(12:59 PM) Thusness: it is important that he breaks through that witness and see it in manifestation, that is exactly what ken wilber said.
(12:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:59 PM) Thusness: in fact i borrow his books last week just because i saw this phrase.
(1:00 PM) AEN: oh.. icic
(1:00 PM) AEN: haha
(1:00 PM) Thusness: otherwise no value.
(1:00 PM) AEN: oic
(1:00 PM) Thusness: because it is very common for one to sink back to the source.
(1:00 PM) Thusness: but for his case, it is a bit unique...he dwell completely into manifestation.
(1:00 PM) AEN: icic...
(1:01 PM) Thusness: and he experience witnessing consciousness in all three stages.
(1:01 PM) AEN: oic
(1:01 PM) Thusness: waking, dreaming and dreamless
(1:01 PM) AEN: icic
(1:02 PM) Thusness: but the way he puts it into fulcrum 7 and 8 before 9 is experienced, i can't agree.
(1:02 PM) Thusness: i think it is not right and dangerous.
(1:02 PM) AEN: how come/
(1:02 PM) Thusness: however i like his books because of his experience.
(1:02 PM) AEN: wait falcrum 8 is...?
(1:03 PM) AEN: falcrum 7 is dangerous? lol
(1:03 PM) Thusness: because that sort of practice is first not towards liberation means there is no wisdom in our nature but merely a stage.
(1:03 PM) AEN: oic
(1:03 PM) Thusness: next the tranquil calm that is most important for any practices isn't mentioned.
(1:03 PM) Thusness: that to me is not right.
(1:03 PM) Thusness: and very dangerous.
(1:03 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:04 PM) Thusness: a correct practice should lead one towards calmness, purity and tranqulity.
(1:04 PM) AEN: oic
(1:04 PM) Thusness: this comes first then even one experience nothing about our nature is able to benefit from such fruition.
(1:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:05 PM) Thusness: during death, ward off evils, solve daily problems, deal with mental stress
(1:05 PM) AEN: icic
(1:05 PM) Thusness: such calmness itself is the 'mantra', is the cure for all the above.
(1:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:06 PM) AEN: ward off evil as in
(1:06 PM) Thusness: or serve as the base for it.
(1:06 PM) AEN: oic
(1:06 PM) Thusness: yeah...when the mind is calm, there is lil power over some person.
(1:06 PM) Thusness: it is difficult to penetrate such a mind.
(1:06 PM) AEN: o icic...
(1:06 PM) Thusness: therefore that must be the base of practice first.
(1:07 PM) AEN: oic
(1:07 PM) Thusness: only when conditions are right and one is quite sure that the practitioner is ready, then it is appropriate to guide one towards dreamless and dream stage...and real qualified masters are need.
(1:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:08 PM) Thusness: dealing with the mind itself into a realm that is not easily understood by ppl is dangerous.
(1:08 PM) Thusness: and those masters are sure themselves unless they are really high achievers.
(1:08 PM) Thusness: how many of them are truly so?
(1:08 PM) AEN: oic
(1:09 PM) Thusness: therefore one should refrain from such practice.
(1:09 PM) AEN: oic
(1:10 PM) Thusness: and teachers must correctly advise their students or followers their practices toward achieving the virtuous attributes of the mind.
(1:10 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:10 PM) Thusness: and at the same time provide correct knowledge of our nature, leading them only when the conditions are right.
(1:10 PM) AEN: icic
(1:11 PM) Thusness: lol...otherwise if nub ask then i start telling them this and that or twe asked then reply this and that...then they are misled.
(1:11 PM) AEN: oic hahah
(1:12 PM) Thusness: rather lead them towards the experience of the tranquil calm, it will solve their problems and experience the benefits and fruition of chanting and meditation.
(1:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:13 PM) Thusness: then get them aquainted with dharma and have correct understanding of what our true nature is like.
(1:13 PM) Thusness: that's all.
(1:13 PM) AEN: oic
(1:14 PM) Thusness: the page 250 of what ken wilber described is exactly what longchen need now, he must stabilize this experience
(1:15 PM) Thusness: and return to the practice of tranquility and calmness through letting go to master the thought pattern.
(1:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:15 PM) Thusness: with this mastery, he is able to complete allow the condition of sleep to manifest as it is.
(1:16 PM) Thusness: now during night, sleep will definitely occur
(1:16 PM) Thusness: why?
(1:16 PM) Thusness: because the conditions are there.
(1:16 PM) Thusness: the mind knows
(1:16 PM) AEN: icic
(1:16 PM) Thusness: and is aware of it.
(1:16 PM) Thusness: right?
(1:16 PM) AEN: ya
(1:17 PM) Thusness: when the conditions are there, there is manifestation and that is itself the source.
(1:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:17 PM) Thusness: when we din sleep, it is not that the stage is high but rather we are unable to allow conditions to be as it is
(1:18 PM) Thusness: if we can enter into deep sleep, it is because of this
(1:18 PM) Thusness: one must observe the condition
(1:18 PM) AEN: oic
(1:19 PM) Thusness: when we are not able to take nothingness as an object which is so obvious during deep sleep, we are denying that condition
(1:19 PM) Thusness: it is a form of subtle attachment
(1:19 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:19 PM) Thusness: and also not knowing emptiness
(1:19 PM) AEN: icic
(1:19 PM) Thusness: an attachment to the self.
(1:19 PM) AEN: oic
(1:20 PM) Thusness: natural awareness can be substained but through another way.
(1:20 PM) Thusness: that is, one is able to control the thought patterns and allow thoughts to subside
(1:20 PM) AEN: icic
(1:20 PM) Thusness: only after achieving this level, we have mastery we can go into it.
(1:20 PM) Thusness: that is achievement
(1:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:22 PM) Thusness: when u read ken wilber's book, do know about what can be practiced, what can't.
(1:22 PM) AEN: icic ok
(1:22 PM) Thusness: when future u faced problem u must know what can solve ur problems
(1:23 PM) AEN: oic
(1:23 PM) Thusness: it is always about the mastery of our thoughts (the capacity to slow down and settle it) in a mandane world.
(1:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:24 PM) Thusness: then it comes to ultimate liberation and enlightenment, that is the intuitive experience of our pristine nature.
(1:24 PM) AEN: icic
(1:25 PM) Thusness: for one that experience "I AM", one can still take another 20 years to experience what ken wilber said.
(1:25 PM) Thusness: it is just a 'spell' that bond and it takes more than 20 yrs for him to break.
(1:25 PM) Thusness: nothing changes
(1:25 PM) Thusness: just a bond
(1:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:26 PM) AEN: hmm ask u arh, if a practitioner attains a very high stage this lifetime, will he still need to go through all the various stages ken wilber mentioned in the next lifetime? lol
(1:26 PM) Thusness: yeah
(1:27 PM) Thusness: as far as i know...hehehe
(1:27 PM) AEN: haha
(1:27 PM) AEN: icic
(1:27 PM) Thusness: but don't worry too much...coz the strength of the practice is latent deep inside...