for the benefit of the buddhist audience here, please note that what i said above shd not be analysed using theory of emptiness. We have to keep the two truths, relative and absolute apart when doing this logic thing.
that's why buddhism is not easy to understand. the teachings of the buddha need to be practised and not merely reading and studying. regarding attachment, how many of buddhists, can say they can detach from money, relationships, clinging, desire etc. even dhamma needed to be let go.
Originally posted by january:Another way to help your camp prove that your theory is more convincing and more powerful stuff rather than psuedo science.
Either straits time, or any reputable foerginer country media or any major science body, to get hold of just one freaking people, just one freaking person out of the billions of people in the world, or in history last time, where their past life is someone freaking famous so that more people can related to. Not some ah kao , ah mao, where only a few people knows these past life.
SOme one like gandhi, some albert einstein, qin shi huang(chinese emperor), ong teng cheong(our past president), michael jackson, issac newton, princess diana.,,,, i just need one freaking famous name out of the thouands that have passed away so that more people can see and realize.......
JUST ONE>>>.......!!!!...... i beg... you... just get them on a major media, endorsed by youtube, or facebook CEO, some Freaking major newspaper.... please.... JUST one will do...
than i will be more excited about my reincarnation next time.....
Even if there are really someone who claim to be the reincarnation of some big guys, the reputable media will also won't publish them because the readers are of mix mindset. They will not want to go to the extent of proving and provide evidence. You may go to the internet and search for the reincarnation of Marilyn Manroe. There are serious talk on the person who claim to to be the reincarnation of Marilyn Manroe. If I am not wrong, there are others who claim to be the reincarnation of some big guys.
In Tibetan Buddhism, Living Buddha the 16th Karmapa (I believe most of the Buddhists know who he is) left a letter before he passed away. In the letter, he stated clearly his next rebirth, the place, his next life's mother's name and father's name, the year he would be reborn etc. His disciples were instructed to read the letter many years after he passed away. The disciples were supposed to search for him based on the details in the letter.
The searching process for the 17th Karmapa was recorded in the video from the day the letter was opened till the day they found the 17th Karmapa. When he was found, he was only 4 years old but he knew exactly when his disciples were looking for him as he told his parents that someone would be coming to look for him in few days time and when his disciples found him, he was all ready to go with them.
I believe all human beings go through the same process, just like all human beings have to die some day, so is reincarnation which is part of the natural process.
Originally posted by january:agree with herzog-zwei.
Reincarnation is just hocus-pocus stuff. Same league as UFO and astral travelling.
Strange evidence they use to justify their theory.
Just a with weird case studies and people must stubornly claimed its link to reincarnation. Gods know the validity of these cases studies. So unscientific.
As what herzog as said, global scientific circle will unanimously dismiss such theory as just another psuedoscience.At least most of them, cause for some reasons, some scientists can be irrational also. Also, if something is scientific, i will surely be the first to know, and i can easily check whether certain claims has become scientific already with just a simple research.
Do not link the corpenius theory of spherical earth to justify accepting reincarnation. i can also say your science textbook is going to become a stack of one thousand dollar for you only because you are the chosen one and you just have to believe in it for one year. Will u believe me?
For something to be credile like reincarnation, overwhelming evidence must be converging. Nope, it is not happening in this issue. Period. 20 years later, there will still be people like you posting on the topic of " reincarnation finally accepted"
ASTROTURFING
What I'd like to say is to keep an open mind. The research is based on recounts of experiences of subjects.
To discover anything, we first formulate and or take an existing theory and the proceeds to use existing values and facts to either prove or disprove it.
Certain belief and "facts" we take for granted will subsequently be found untrue!
Until someone discovers and quantifies what conciousness is made of or what medium and or receptors related to it, then rebirth may be investigated. Obviously, whatever it is, the conciousness transferred from point of death to point of life must be measured. Currently this out of the scope of established scientific community!
If you must, scientifically disprove the methods or the motives of both the subjects and researchers vested. At the moment, belief in rebirth lies rest on accounts of memories of young subjects, you may speculate that these are" fed" to the subjects. But you have given into speculation without adequate proof of your own!
What is that you have given is only your opinion!
To discover what consciousness/mind is.. one only has to look within through the practice of meditation and self-inquiry.. and discover something that will change our perspective and understanding of consciousness, reality and identity.
A partial quotation from http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/B%20-%20Theravada/Teachers/Ajahn%20Brahmavamso/Meditation%20The%20Heart%20of%20Buddhism/Meditation%20The%20Heart%20of%20Buddhism-%20Ajahn%20Brahm.htm
Remember "con men," "con women" as well. These con men can sell you anything! There's one living in your mind right now, and you believe every word he says! His name is Thinking. When you let go of that inner talk and get silent, you get happy. Then when you let go of the movement of the mind and stay with the breath, you experience even more delight. Then when you let go of the body ,all these five senses disappear and you're really blissing out. This is original Buddhism. Sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch completely vanish. This is like being in a sensory deprivation chamber but much better. But it's not just silence, you just don't hear anything. It's not just blackness, you just don't see anything. It's not just a feeling of comfort in the body, there is no body at all.
When the body disappears that really starts to feel great. You know of all those people who have out of the body experiences? When the body dies, every person has that experience, they float out of the body. And one of the things they always say is it's so peaceful, so beautiful, so blissful. It's the same in meditation when the body disappears, it's so peaceful, so beautiful, so blissful when you are free from this body. What's left? Here there's no sight, sound, smell, taste, touch. This is what the Buddha called the mind in deep meditation. When the body disappears what is left is the mind.
I gave a simile to a monk the other night. Imagine an Emperor who is wearing a long pair of trousers and a big tunic. He's got shoes on his feet, a scarf around the bottom half of his head and a hat on the top half of his head. You can't see him at all because he's completely covered in five garments. It's the same with the mind. It's completely covered with sight, sound, smell, taste and touch. So people don't know it. They just know the garments. When they see the Emperor, they just see the robes and the garments. They don't know who lives inside them. And so it is no wonder they're confused about what is life, what is mind, who is this inside of here, were did I come from? Why? What am I supposed to be doing with this life? When the five senses disappear, it's like unclothing the Emperor and seeing what is actually in here, what's actually running the show, who's listening to these words, who's seeing, who's feeling life, who this is. When the five senses disappear, you're coming close to the answer to those questions.
What you're seeing in such deep meditation is that which we call "mind," (in Pali it's called Citta). The Buddha used this beautiful simile. When there is a full moon on a cloudy night, even though it's a full moon, you can hardly see it. Sometimes when the clouds are thin, you can see this hazy shape shining though. You know there is something there. This is like the meditation just before you've entered into these profound states. You know there is something there, but you can't quite make it out. There's still some "clothes" left. You're still thinking and doing, feeling the body or hearing sounds. But there does come a time, and this is the Buddha's simile, when the moon is released from the clouds and there in the clear night sky you can see the beautiful full disc of the moon shining brilliantly, and you know that's the moon. The moon is there; the moon is real, and it's not just some sort of side effect of the clouds. This is what happens in meditation when you see the mind. You see clearly that the mind is not some side effect of the brain. You see the mind, and you know the mind. The Buddha said that the mind released is beautiful, is brilliant, is radiant. So not only are these blissful experiences, they're meaningful experiences as well.
How many people may have heard about rebirth but still don't really believe it? How can rebirth happen? Certainly the body doesn't get reborn. That's why when people ask me where do you go when you die, "one of two places" I say "Fremantle or Karrakatta" that's where the body goes! [3] But is that where the mind goes? Sometimes people are so stupid in this world, they think the body is all there is, that there is no mind. So when you get cremated or buried that's it, that's done with, all has ended. The only way you can argue with this view is by developing the meditation that the Buddha achieved under the Bodhi tree. Then you can see the mind for yourself in clear awareness - not in some hypnotic trance, not in dullness - but in the clear awareness. This is knowing the mind
When you know that mind, when you see it for yourself, one of the results will be an insight that the mind is independent of this body. Independence means that when this body breaks up and dies, when it's cremated or when it's buried, or however it's destroyed after death, it will not affect the mind. You know this because you see the nature of the mind. That mind which you see will transcend bodily death. The first thing which you will see for yourself, the insight which is as clear as the nose on your face, is that there is something more to life than this physical body that we take to be me. Secondly you can recognise that that mind, essentially, is no different than that process of consciousness which is in all beings. Whether it's human beings or animals or even insects, of any gender, age or race, you see that that which is in common to all life is this mind, this consciousness, the source of doing.
Once you see that, you have much more respect for your fellow beings. Not just respect for your own race, your own tribe or your own religion, not just for human beings, but for all beings. It's a wonderfully high-minded idea. "May all beings be happy and well and may we respect all nations, all peoples, even all beings." However this is how you achieve that! You truly get compassion only when we see that others are fundamentally just as ourselves. If you think that a cow is completely different from you, that cows don't think like human beings, then it's easy to eat one. But can you eat your grandmother? She's too much like you. Can you eat an ant? Maybe you'd kill an ant because you think that ants aren't like you. But if you look carefully at ants, they are no different. In a forest monastery living out in the bush, close to nature, one of the things you become so convinced of is that animals have emotions and , especially, feel pain. You begin to recognise the personality of the animals, of the Kookaburras,(Australian bird) of the mice, the ants, and the spiders. Each one of those spiders has a mind just like you have. Once you see that you can understand the Buddha's compassion for all beings. You can also understand how rebirth can occur between all species - not just human beings to human beings, but animals to humans, humans to animals. You can understand also how the mind is the source of all this.
The mind can exist even without a body in the realms of ghosts and angels (what we call in Buddhism Devas). It becomes very clear to you how they exist, why they exist, what they are. These are insights and understandings which come from deep meditation. But more than that, when you know the nature of the mind then you know the nature of consciousness. You know the nature of stillness. You know the nature of life. You understand what makes this mind go round and round and round, what makes this mind seek rebirth. You understand the law of Kamma.
The First Knowledge. When the Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree, according to tradition he gained three knowledge's. The first knowledge was the memory of past lives. When you get close to the mind, there are certain powers that come with that experience. The powers are no more than an ability, a dexterity with the use of the mind. It's like the difference between a dog that has been running wild and a dog that has been well trained. You can tell the trained dog to go and pick up the newspaper. It wags its tail and goes and picks up the newspaper for you. Some people have got their dogs so well trained that they can actually pick up the telephone. Maybe they could answer the telephone as well, then that would really save you a lot of time!
When you get to these deep states of meditation often, the mind becomes well trained. One of the things which the Buddha did (and which you can do when you get into deep meditation) is tell the mind to go back to the past. What's your earliest memory? Go back further and further and further. Monks who do this get early memories of their childhood. They even get memories of the moment they were born. Sometimes people say that when you're born, you have no consciousness because the neuron's aren't developed yet, or something like that. But when you re-experience your birth, you know that that is just not true. When the memory of your own birth appears, it is just like you are there and you experience all feelings of that birth. Then you can ask yourself for an even earlier memory, and then you get back into your past lives. That's what the Buddha did under the Bodhi tree. Through meditation you know rebirth, you know your own past lives. This is just what happens with the mind and you know how it happens. That was the first knowledge that the Buddha had.
The Second Knowledge. The second knowledge was to know how you are reborn. Why you are reborn. Where you are reborn. This is the Law of Kamma. Someone was showing me a book today which, unfortunately, we had for free distribution but which I hadn't seen before. It had some really weird ideas in it about the Law of Kamma. I think what it said was that if you read one of the Suttas while you are lying on the ground, you will be reborn with a bad back, or something like that. Just stupid ideas! Kamma is much more complex than that and it depends mostly upon the quality of your intention. The movement of the mind itself is what determines the Kamma, not just the act, but why and where it came from. You can see this in meditation, but also you can see just how that mind gets fully liberated.
The Third Knowledge. The third knowledge was the ending of suffering. With understanding of The Four Noble Truths, you realise the Way and what enlightenment really means. It means freedom! The mind is liberated, especially liberated from the body, liberated not just from the suffering of the body but liberated from the happiness of the body as well. That means that there is no more inclination for sexuality, no fear of pain, no grief over the destruction of the body, no ill will and no fear of criticism. Why do people get worried about bad words that are said? Only because of ego. They take something to be themselves. Just imagine for a moment being free from all of those things. What would that be like, no fear, no craving, no need to move from this moment - In other words nothing missing, and nothing left to do, nowhere to go because you’re completely happy right here no matter what happens! This is what we mean by enlightenment. This meditation is the source of the Buddha's enlightenment and the source of every person’s enlightenment.
There is no enlightenment without that meditation. This is why Buddhism is far more than a psychotherapy. It's far more than a philosophy. It's far more than a religion. It goes deep into the nature of being, and it is accessible to all people. You know how to meditate. Teachers are giving all the instructions free without any charge. Do you want to do it? Usually the answer is, "Maybe tomorrow but not today." Never the less because the seeds have been placed in the mind, because the meditation has begun already, there is an interest. Already there is a sense of this enlightenment, a fascination for peace, and you will not be able to resist that path. You may be able to put it off for a while, maybe for lifetimes, but it's a strange thing that, as someone said to me many years ago, "When you hear these teachings you can't discard them." You just can't forget them. They aren't telling you what to believe. They aren't giving you a theory which is merely rational. But they are pointing you to something which you can understand and experience for yourself, and you get intuitions of this the deeper you go.
The Buddha was a very remarkable person, his peacefulness, compassion and wisdom, were legendary. There is something about enlightenment that is very attractive. In the same way there is something about freedom that you cannot ignore. That is why little by little, you will understand what Buddhism is all about. You won't understand Buddhism from the books nor will you understand Buddhism from what I say. You'll only understand Buddhism in your own experiences of peaceful meditation. That's where Buddhism is taught. So have fun with your meditation and don't be afraid of enlightenment. Get in there, enjoy it, and you will have no regrets.
That's what Buddhism is. That's it's heart, meditation and enlightenment. That's it's meaning. I hope you can understand some of this. I can say no more because the time has gone. I'll complete my talk now.
"How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG?" the authors ask, adding that "NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind–brain relation."
Near-Death Experiences: Evidence of Afterlife, Says Radiation Oncologist
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1955636,00.html
http://www.nderf.org/
Originally posted by january:yup, i am an atheist. Reincarnation talk has been around for centuries already.
Other than so called these few evidence of people and child having those abilities to recall and do certain skills, what else have you people found out and develop in this field. See?
No progress at all. How do i believe in this things when all you can show me is this same old recycled information and evidences without any progressive information and facts and experiments...... How?
I really want to be believe that i have a next life , you know? But its just that i do not like to delude myself so easily by all these salesman talk. Come on, more obvious things to show me, no more examples of miracles children already, i am opening my eyes now..
For example, can you please tell Straits time, or the some reputable media , like United nations, or like Nature.com , or microsoft, to do a study on this things so that it is more convincing for me.
SGforums + sgforumers telling me that something is true and true , and link to some unreputable or bias website, and with same old 'evidence' ??
I will be the first to sign up if there is really a afterlife for me. really. I hope it true. But you know what? Hoping is futile, if you want to have forever life, you must be the miracle to achieving it, not by waiting to find out with reincarnation is true, because it will never be.
good to know you're not a christian................better not to believe the truth then to believe in falsehood........
you mean to say you believe in Straits Times ? which is a PAP propaganda tool ? and microsoft ?
aiyoh.........you need a reality check, brudder...........
there are so much reported incidences of people reporting recalling their past lives that your eyes will fall out from reading them.................most of the stories i read were from Angmohs some more...............christians some more................don't tell me all these countless cases (when you include India) are all made-up..................
so what do you believe anyway since science also you don't believe..................don't tell me you believe in the Cookie Monster or Big Bird ?
I dont believe in rebirth , seems nonsensical to me.
My buddhsit friends told me about rebirth , I also do not believe in such stuff.
I watched on Discovery channel, skeptics and critics slam such a theory too.
I dont believe in karma too .
Just my view , dont take it too seriously.
Some rebirth stories told by man dont fit into buddhist theories.
I recount a story seen on TV, the man has been reborn into human for many lifetimes without observing the buddhism 5 precepts. many lifetimes !!! He remembered he was continously reborn as a man over multiple times.
I thought buddhist believe in five precepts to obtain human life again.
Another rebirth story is abt a world war two soldier who died in the war. He became a human again in his afterlife. People who died in war should be reborn into ghosts or into lower realms. He also did not observe 5 precepts as he was a christian , how did he became a human being again and got born into our eath again ?
Put it this way, "you" are born from a human mother, but you have certain traits of personality and tendencies that is in incongruent with your existence in your mother womb.
Meaning traits not inherited, do not derive from your parents union, their intelligence, or lack of. Your mother's emotional and physical states affecting the baby. The things that make it an unique "you", inspite of all other suppositions.
Rebirth depends on karma, and is not as simplistic as many make out to be.There is a thread on karma, will post it here when I find it!
Originally posted by Weychin:
wow. nice
Originally posted by ~PEPPER~:Some rebirth stories told by man dont fit into buddhist theories.
I recount a story seen on TV, the man has been reborn into human for many lifetimes without observing the buddhism 5 precepts. many lifetimes !!! He remembered he was continously reborn as a man over multiple times.
I thought buddhist believe in five precepts to obtain human life again.
Another rebirth story is abt a world war two soldier who died in the war. He became a human again in his afterlife. People who died in war should be reborn into ghosts or into lower realms. He also did not observe 5 precepts as he was a christian , how did he became a human being again and got born into our eath again ?
Not everyone who fought in war had to be reborn in ghost or lower realms. They may not have killed anyone. They may be forced to enlist into war.
Our moderator Longchen actually has vivid recollection of his past life in his meditation of fighting in World War 1 in France.
Other religions also have their own commandments which are not much different than precepts.
Even if a person does not have a religion but is virtuous can also get reborn as human.
Rebirth is entirely according to his karma.
The goal of Buddhism however is not to have a better rebirth, but to ultimately transcend uncontrolled rebirths by attaining enlightenment and liberation (from all sufferings, rebirths, etc).
What I am saying here is based on what I have seen on TV shows.
The man has been reborn into humans multiple times.
Normally in buddhism , he goes up and down in the 6 realms.
That man seem to be telling stories that he was reborn everytime as a human, he wont be animal or in other realms.
This proves that some rebirth stories are not in synch with buddhism theory.
I dont think that man is virtuous. according to what I have seen , he seems to be a non virtuous man. Yet he can be reborn as a human everytime.
But nevertheless, I dont believe in karma and rebirth. I am just sharing some interesting stuff i have seen on TV.
I have some hindu frenz who told me they are human every lifetime too. I ignore them completely. haha lol.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Not everyone who fought in war had to be reborn in ghost or lower realms. They may not have killed anyone. They may be forced to enlist into war.
Our moderator Longchen actually has vivid recollection of his past life in his meditation of fighting in World War 1 in France.
Other religions also have their own commandments which are not much different than precepts.
Even if a person does not have a religion but is virtuous can also get reborn as human.
Rebirth is entirely according to his karma.
The goal of Buddhism however is not to have a better rebirth, but to ultimately transcend uncontrolled rebirths by attaining enlightenment and liberation (from all sufferings, rebirths, etc).
I dont believe in Karma though.
so have you watch Sesame Street lately on TV......................?
so will Big Bird and the Cookie Monster make it to heaven ?
let me guess, those so-called experts on those TV shows you watched that slammed rebirths are all Angmohs and obviously they're christians.................LOL
Originally posted by ~PEPPER~:What I am saying here is based on what I have seen on TV shows.
The man has been reborn into humans multiple times.
Normally in buddhism , he goes up and down in the 6 realms.
That man seem to be telling stories that he was reborn everytime as a human, he wont be animal or in other realms.
This proves that some rebirth stories are not in synch with buddhism theory.
I dont think that man is virtuous. according to what I have seen , he seems to be a non virtuous man. Yet he can be reborn as a human everytime.
But nevertheless, I dont believe in karma and rebirth. I am just sharing some interesting stuff i have seen on TV.
I have some hindu frenz who told me they are human every lifetime too. I ignore them completely. haha lol.
It is perfectly normal to be reborn consistently as a human. Not everyone has to go to another realm. Lots of people who I know who remember their past lives have also been humans consistently for many lifetimes. In fact I have another friend who remembered a lifetime being a dolphin, however his recent rebirths were all human.
To understand the concept of rebirth, you have to first understand karma, which is a complex subject to begin with. You version of going up the 6 realms makes me think of anescalator, going up and down! Ha! Ha!(not laughing at you!)
When we think of cycle of samsara, we are talking of countless lifetimes, for scale, a Arahant will remember up to 500 hundred lifetimes !
Originally posted by ~PEPPER~:I dont believe in Karma though.
You reap what you sow.
Originally posted by As romanista2001:so have you watch Sesame Street lately on TV......................?
so will Big Bird and the Cookie Monster make it to heaven ?
let me guess, those so-called experts on those TV shows you watched that slammed rebirths are all Angmohs and obviously they're christians.................LOL
Who knows, maybe the skeptics and critics they themselves slam Christianality.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It is perfectly normal to be reborn consistently as a human. Not everyone has to go to another realm. Lots of people who I know who remember their past lives have also been humans consistently for many lifetimes. In fact I have another friend who remembered a lifetime being a dolphin, however his recent rebirths were all human.
You all should form a club discussing rebirth.
Many of my friends do not believe in rebirth, they are atheists, free thinker and christians.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You reap what you sow.
Haha, funny theories.
Those who remembered past lives should be checked by psychiatrist for further evaluation .
Originally posted by ~PEPPER~:Those who remembered past lives should be checked by psychiatrist for further evaluation .
Often people go to psychiatrist because they are feeling unwell, or unhappy, and very often the problem arises from habitual tendencies. Upon hypnosis, if memories regress to previous life, then recognizing root cause of habitual tendencies is not a bad thing!
Originally posted by ~PEPPER~:Those who remembered past lives should be checked by psychiatrist for further evaluation .
There are many things which do not need to go through ourselves to know that it is true. Just like do you need to die before you know there is death ? To me, 16th Karmapa was able to foretell his details (parents' name, place and year etc.) for his next rebirth before he passed away is already a solid proof that there is rebirth.
Below is a video clip from Fox News. Fox news is a reliable media in U.S. The boy was able to recall details of his past life and proven that what he said were correct. He even caught the attention of the Japanese.
There are many things which do not need you to believe to happen. Just like death, you believe in it or not or you like it or not, the truth is every human being will die someday.