What is the big fuss about defrocking the Venerable Ming Yi?

• Pure Emptiness

  6 Dec 10, 20:00

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  Buddha once use a simile that bad monks(/nuns) are like dead carcasses in the ocean. though they cannot cross the ocean themselves, but we all can still use or hold onto them to ferry ourselves across the ocean to the other shore.

  their bad actions are their unwholesome karma. ur respect is your own merit. seperate issues.

  /\

  
  but if monks do bad things ppl slander the monk ppl also get bad karma.

  U know alot of the public dunno slander monk gt bad karma.

• Pacman_73

  6 Dec 10, 20:51

  Definition of slander : See pt. 2

  1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.

  2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.

  3. Law . defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.

  I don't think anyone slandered him.

• sinweiy

  6 Dec 10, 22:23

  Originally posted by Pure Emptiness:

  
  but if monks do bad things ppl slander the monk ppl also get bad karma.

  U know alot of the public dunno slander monk gt bad karma.

  
  then they dunno how to hold onto the floating carcasses to save their dharma lifes 法身慧命. but i think the simile is more for Buddhists than for normal people.

  we can also see how Buddha deal with Devadatta. Buddha is more in silence treatment. i think the ppl at that time still have their judgemental view. we try not to judge, same like jesus taught. ;)

  i can't find, but if i recall correctly, Buddha did taught us on how to deal with such situations. also something to do with silence treatment and upholding your own precepts. 

  btw last of the 5 gravest offenses is creating schism in the sangha. "slander" monk might just be under the 10 unwholesome deeds of bad mouthing.

  /\

• Aik TC

  6 Dec 10, 22:44

   

  Whether a karma is going to be consider good or bad will depends on the person’s intention when he is taking the actions.  In Ven. Ming Yi case, he may think that what he has done is not wrong, i.e. he may have a very clear conscience of his own actions. If that is the case, I do not believe he is going to suffer any bad effect in his next life. However, his action to date has already incurred plenty of negative effects not just for others but for himself as well. His karma have already bear fruition.

• sinweiy

  6 Dec 10, 23:10

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  i can't find, but if i recall correctly, Buddha did taught us on how to deal with such situations. also something to do with silence treatment and upholding your own precepts. 

  
  recall and found. at least my memories coming back.

  佛�世，以佛为师，佛入��，以�为师？佛答：「以戒为师。�凡佛弟�，�管在家出家，皆以戒为师。二�佛�世时，�佛安�，佛入��，�何为�？佛答：「�四念处安�。�乃心之安�，�身之安�。三��性比丘，如何治之？佛答：「默摈治之。�莫�他，管好自己，作好榜样，彼自生惭愧，端正己之三业。四�佛��，结集�典，一切�首当安何语，以�信未�众生？佛答：「当安如是我闻等�。

  when Buddha was about to pass on, Ananda asked Buddha wat to do with bad monk/nuns. Buddha said use the silent treatment and just don't care about them. u do your own part. no need to bad mouth or anything.

  默摈就是完全��会

   

   

  净空法师开示
  

   

  1 修净土的人è¦�修什么？视而ä¸�è§�ã€�å�¬è€Œä¸�闻。别人修行如ä¸�如法，ä¸�è¦�去ç�†ä»–——他如法我们尊敬他，他ä¸�如法我们默摈，ä¸�说他。

   

  2 我们自己�有主宰，�为邪师所动。邪师说法，我们需�需��会？�需�。佛教给我们办法，默摈。

   

  3 默摈就是完全��会，他说他的，我们说我们的，他批评我们，我们�必答�，�必解释。

   

  4 在日常生活当中，跟别人在一起，这个心���平�，��为外境所动。别人讲什么，点头应付应付，是是是，是了�天，人家问：他讲什么？�知�，�知�就是了。

   

  5 我心里å�ªæœ‰é˜¿å¼¥é™€ä½›ï¼ŒçœŸçš„是如此，ä¸�能ä¸�æ•·è¡�ï¼�这就是å�¤å¾·æ•™ç»™æˆ‘们“敬而远之”，我们的æ€�度相貌很æ�­æ•¬ï¼Œ“è¿œ”是他讲的东西我没å�¬è§�，而ä¸�是离他远远的。

   

  6 我的心å�ªæœ‰ä¸€æ¡©äº‹æƒ…——阿弥陀佛ï¼�人家说我长ã€�说我短，我统统都没有å�¬åˆ°ï¼Œæˆ‘å�ªæ˜¯é˜¿å¼¥é™€ä½›ã€‚人家讲我是ã€�讲我é�žï¼Œä¸Žæˆ‘ä¸�相干，我还是阿弥陀佛，这就对了。

   

  7 ��被境界动摇，我心就乱了�就�了�就被污染了，那就�是念佛人，就�是修净土了。常常��自己心地清净，真正修净土的人�从这里修。

   

  8 所以，会修的人很少，大多数人�会修。虽然念佛，�到一点点声音，心里疑神疑鬼，�到别人讲几��，是�是说我的是�？这个糟糕�糟糕�

   

  9 别人�是说他的是�，他也认为是在说他，一天到晚在那儿胡�乱想，你想想看，他的心怎么会定下�？这是什么？天下本无事，庸人自扰之，自己找自己麻烦。

   

  10 所以佛的戒律真正是伟大了ä¸�起，他的戒律å�ªæˆ’自己ä¸�戒别人——别人犯戒也好ã€�破戒也好ã€�æŒ�戒也好，与我统统ä¸�相干。ä¸�管别人，我对于一切人决定ä¸�起心ã€�ä¸�动念，我自己æ‰�能得一心。

   

  11 佛教我们�一个人自己守戒律，��管别人，这真正是了�起，这�构想�常符�现代人讲的科学精神。

   

  12 佛纯粹是å�«æˆ‘们自律而ä¸�律他，æ¯�一个人都能容å¿�，自己守规矩，ä¸�管别人，æ¯�一个人都能自律，这个团体当然和å�ˆã€‚别人有ä¸�守规矩的，僧团里头有ä¸�守规矩的，佛教我们一个方法——默摈。

   

  13 他跟我说�，说别人的是�，我对他�敬，是是是，是了�天，一�没�进去，这就是默摈的方法，或者我�了决定�传，�对�告诉第二个人，他就无能为力了。

   

  14 僧团真正�维护和�，这个默摈的方法很�紧。默摈，就是对他尊敬，决定�说他，他的所作所为，我们决定��去����去想�也��说，更�能够学他。

   

  15 释迦牟尼佛教给我们，僧团里头有�守规矩的，调皮�蛋的，�以正法影�他，慢慢他也会改邪归正。他��改邪归正，这僧团大家都��他，他��孤家寡人一个，�好从多数�从大众。

   

  16 ��然的�，他自然会离开僧团，你也��赶他，他就���了，没有人�他，他自然就离开。佛教给我们这个方法，决定�得罪人。

   

  17 �得罪人，��管他，���他，我们的心还是清净，一定���自己的清净心�能达到一心�乱，这是修学净土�常��的原则。

   

  18 释迦牟尼佛对学生最严厉的处分是默摈，这是最严厉的处分，没有把他开除掉，总是希望他回头，希望他觉悟，这是教育，这些地方我们都�学习。

   

  �无阿弥陀佛

• Rooney9

  6 Dec 10, 23:17

  dun let the bad monks and nuns disturb your practise and peace. kamma will take care of them sooner or later. what is more important is your own practise.

• Asromanista2001

  6 Dec 10, 23:31

  that Chao Botak still head of the temple meh ???

• Rooney9

  6 Dec 10, 23:36

  yes he is still the abbot there. the management committee there can decide his fate, but then I doubt so, dun think they will remove him by force.

  I think, MingYi will resign soon after this media blitz.

• Dawnfirstlight

  7 Dec 10, 08:04

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  
  recall and found. at least my memories coming back.

  佛�世，以佛为师，佛入��，以�为师？佛答：「以戒为师。�凡佛弟�，�管在家出家，皆以戒为师。二�佛�世时，�佛安�，佛入��，�何为�？佛答：「�四念处安�。�乃心之安�，�身之安�。三��性比丘，如何治之？佛答：「默摈治之。�莫�他，管好自己，作好榜样，彼自生惭愧，端正己之三业。四�佛��，结集�典，一切�首当安何语，以�信未�众生？佛答：「当安如是我闻等�。

  when Buddha was about to pass on, Ananda asked Buddha wat to do with bad monk/nuns. Buddha said use the silent treatment and just don't care about them. u do your own part. no need to bad mouth or anything.

  默摈就是完全��会

   

   

  净空法师开示
  

   

  1 修净土的人è¦�修什么？视而ä¸�è§�ã€�å�¬è€Œä¸�闻。别人修行如ä¸�如法，ä¸�è¦�去ç�†ä»–——他如法我们尊敬他，他ä¸�如法我们默摈，ä¸�说他。

   

  2 我们自己�有主宰，�为邪师所动。邪师说法，我们需�需��会？�需�。佛教给我们办法，默摈。

   

  3 默摈就是完全��会，他说他的，我们说我们的，他批评我们，我们�必答�，�必解释。

   

  4 在日常生活当中，跟别人在一起，这个心���平�，��为外境所动。别人讲什么，点头应付应付，是是是，是了�天，人家问：他讲什么？�知�，�知�就是了。

   

  5 我心里å�ªæœ‰é˜¿å¼¥é™€ä½›ï¼ŒçœŸçš„是如此，ä¸�能ä¸�æ•·è¡�ï¼�这就是å�¤å¾·æ•™ç»™æˆ‘们“敬而远之”，我们的æ€�度相貌很æ�­æ•¬ï¼Œ“è¿œ”是他讲的东西我没å�¬è§�，而ä¸�是离他远远的。

   

  6 我的心å�ªæœ‰ä¸€æ¡©äº‹æƒ…——阿弥陀佛ï¼�人家说我长ã€�说我短，我统统都没有å�¬åˆ°ï¼Œæˆ‘å�ªæ˜¯é˜¿å¼¥é™€ä½›ã€‚人家讲我是ã€�讲我é�žï¼Œä¸Žæˆ‘ä¸�相干，我还是阿弥陀佛，这就对了。

   

  7 ��被境界动摇，我心就乱了�就�了�就被污染了，那就�是念佛人，就�是修净土了。常常��自己心地清净，真正修净土的人�从这里修。

   

  8 所以，会修的人很少，大多数人�会修。虽然念佛，�到一点点声音，心里疑神疑鬼，�到别人讲几��，是�是说我的是�？这个糟糕�糟糕�

   

  9 别人�是说他的是�，他也认为是在说他，一天到晚在那儿胡�乱想，你想想看，他的心怎么会定下�？这是什么？天下本无事，庸人自扰之，自己找自己麻烦。

   

  10 所以佛的戒律真正是伟大了ä¸�起，他的戒律å�ªæˆ’自己ä¸�戒别人——别人犯戒也好ã€�破戒也好ã€�æŒ�戒也好，与我统统ä¸�相干。ä¸�管别人，我对于一切人决定ä¸�起心ã€�ä¸�动念，我自己æ‰�能得一心。

   

  11 佛教我们�一个人自己守戒律，��管别人，这真正是了�起，这�构想�常符�现代人讲的科学精神。

   

  12 佛纯粹是å�«æˆ‘们自律而ä¸�律他，æ¯�一个人都能容å¿�，自己守规矩，ä¸�管别人，æ¯�一个人都能自律，这个团体当然和å�ˆã€‚别人有ä¸�守规矩的，僧团里头有ä¸�守规矩的，佛教我们一个方法——默摈。

   

  13 他跟我说�，说别人的是�，我对他�敬，是是是，是了�天，一�没�进去，这就是默摈的方法，或者我�了决定�传，�对�告诉第二个人，他就无能为力了。

   

  14 僧团真正�维护和�，这个默摈的方法很�紧。默摈，就是对他尊敬，决定�说他，他的所作所为，我们决定��去����去想�也��说，更�能够学他。

   

  15 释迦牟尼佛教给我们，僧团里头有�守规矩的，调皮�蛋的，�以正法影�他，慢慢他也会改邪归正。他��改邪归正，这僧团大家都��他，他��孤家寡人一个，�好从多数�从大众。

   

  16 ��然的�，他自然会离开僧团，你也��赶他，他就���了，没有人�他，他自然就离开。佛教给我们这个方法，决定�得罪人。

   

  17 �得罪人，��管他，���他，我们的心还是清净，一定���自己的清净心�能达到一心�乱，这是修学净土�常��的原则。

   

  18 释迦牟尼佛对学生最严厉的处分是默摈，这是最严厉的处分，没有把他开除掉，总是希望他回头，希望他觉悟，这是教育，这些地方我们都�学习。

   

  �无阿弥陀佛

  During Buddha's time, there was no media. So, bad monks or nuns would not have much impact on Buddhism. However, in today's world, like Ming Yi's case, the whole of Singapore know about his actions. If SBF keeps quiet, others will think that silence means consent and Buddhism condones his actions. Other monks or nuns will follow his actions thinking it is right to do so.

• sinweiy

  7 Dec 10, 09:53

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  During Buddha's time, there was no media. So, bad monks or nuns would not have much impact on Buddhism. However, in today's world, like Ming Yi's case, the whole of Singapore know about his actions. If SBF keeps quiet, others will think that silence means consent and Buddhism condones his actions. Other monks or nuns will follow his actions thinking it is right to do so.

  
  u have a point for modern time, esp for those uninformed..i think during Buddha's time, those who know who the bad monks are, will still know; and those who don't know will still do not know and follow blindly, no need media to inform them. moreover Buddha's disciples should have high spiritual knowing power that are more powerful than media. but right and wrong will depend on one's cultivation and spiritual achievement.  so easily move by others mean their cultivation are not there. like for example u yourself know what's right and wrong. will u follow his actions thinking it's right? :)

  perhaps one's blind by fame.

  afaik, Buddha also have his long term reason for the silent treatment that is related to upholding one's precepts. if people see Buddhists never uphold their precepts, then they also follow not to uphold their precepts. then Buddhism will degenerate even faster.

  /\

• Demon Bane

  7 Dec 10, 10:05

  Originally posted by Pure Emptiness:

  
  but if monks do bad things ppl slander the monk ppl also get bad karma.

  U know alot of the public dunno slander monk gt bad karma.

  Yes, its quite true.

• Pure Emptiness

  7 Dec 10, 10:51

  The public will start to slander ming yi fashi n the triple gems.

  The mouth is special once start slander fashi will slander all the triple gems.

   

• Pure Emptiness

  7 Dec 10, 10:53

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  
  u have a point for modern time, esp for those uninformed..i think during Buddha's time, those who know who the bad monks are, will still know; and those who don't know will still do not know and follow blindly, no need media to inform them. moreover Buddha's disciples should have high spiritual knowing power that are more powerful than media. but right and wrong will depend on one's cultivation and spiritual achievement.  so easily move by others mean their cultivation are not there. like for example u yourself know what's right and wrong. will u follow his actions thinking it's right? :)

  perhaps one's blind by fame.

  afaik, Buddha also have his long term reason for the silent treatment that is related to upholding one's precepts. if people see Buddhists never uphold their precepts, then they also follow not to uphold their precepts. then Buddhism will degenerate even faster.

  /\

  
  Five precepts cannot be uphold easily especially speech.

  Speech the hardest.

  I had many difficulties with five precepts.

   

   

• Pure Emptiness

  7 Dec 10, 10:55

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  During Buddha's time, there was no media. So, bad monks or nuns would not have much impact on Buddhism. However, in today's world, like Ming Yi's case, the whole of Singapore know about his actions. If SBF keeps quiet, others will think that silence means consent and Buddhism condones his actions. Other monks or nuns will follow his actions thinking it is right to do so.

  
  Even my malaysian relatives slander him. Bad news spread fast with today's media.

   

• Demon Bane

  7 Dec 10, 11:02

  Whatever the motive of the people who want him out, I still think he has alot of supporters. He's done more good than bad I suppose.

• Rainbow Jigsaw

  7 Dec 10, 14:48

  If people willingly choose to follow the directions of a character with a questionable heart, then they should be responsible for their own choice. If the consequences are carried over to subsequent lifetimes, then they should also blame themselves for choosing to follow, as no one forced them to do so.

  This sort of situation happens all the time, everywhere in the world, throughout history. When no one dares to question, or when no one knows what to question, the leader has a lot of power to play with. This is just one of the higher profile cases that has been unearthed to the Singaporean public. Many other cases are still not uncovered yet, for the time being.

• Demon Bane

  7 Dec 10, 15:49

  In the "Gladiator" movie there's this saying: "U must kill your name before it kills u". Fame is certainly a vanity that had caused so many problems for Ming Yi. He should learn to stay low profile, at least until the dust settled.....

• Aik TC

  7 Dec 10, 16:38

   

  Found this article which was posted on the Buddhist Channel.

  More Moral Integrity Please

  by Vajrakumara, The Buddhist Channel, Dec 6, 2010

  Singapore -- A 'monk' who is an 'abbot' made grave mistakes. He has yet to express clear and open repentance for his multiple misgivings, even after being jailed. Most Buddhists are enraged at why the local Buddhist federation is not disciplining him - e.g. by defrocking him or demoting his monastic status.

  Some Buddhists support him, saying he had paid his dues. But how about paying the Buddhist community affected by his shamelessness with a sincere apology in word and deed?

  No, he agrees to attend an extravagant $200,000 dinner to 'honour' him by his devotees instead, when the money can go to the charity whose trust he seriously damaged. What is worth honouring anyway? The senior monks, including the one who ordained him refuse to comment. This is the summary of the situation so far.

  While the 'monk' seems to lack the moral integrity to apologise, it is uncertain that the federation has power to trial the 'monk' because of it is not truly a central Buddhist body authorised by the Buddhist community to look after all matters of monastic discipline. In fact, it is questionable if the federation has enough moral integrity to judge him too.

  For example, please see these articles on the serious mishandling of a recent international incident - 'Singapore's Minster did NOT Meet the Panchen Lama' (http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=22,9581,0,0,1,0) and 'Please Do Not Mix Religion & Politics' (http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=22,9582,0,0,1,0).
  The federation itself has not yet apologised on this matter - of endorsing a puppet 'monk', which indirectly supports keeping the real one a political prisoner.

  Back to the case of the unrepentant 'monk', it seems that all the key monks involved are at fault to some extent. Correctional action is wanting on all sides. What is the protagonist doing, by not apologising?

  What is his teacher doing, by not openly demanding him to apologise publicly? What are his devotees doing, by feeding the 'monk' with undeserved honour? What is the federation doing, by not pulling up its socks of respectability by doing what is right and needed? (If it cannot defrock or demote the 'monk', he should simply be publicly denounced - to shame him appropriately as a last resort - to wake him up.)

  What are the other apathetic monastics and laypeople doing, by remaining silent on this? If Buddhists do not care for the integrity of their community, who will? We will only be a laughing stock to non-Buddhists. The Buddha is unlikely to smile at this.

   

• leetahsar

  8 Dec 10, 12:05

  first of all, is it easier to be a rich monk or a poor one? but a buddhist is neither rich nor poor. he has vowed to forsake all materialism. so a poor monk becoming a rich monk would be very difficult to detach. why would a monk need to possess so many private properties? always thought that his priced property is living in a temple. (isn't temple built to house monks??)

  so being a poor humble monk is indeed a blessing. buddha himself gave away his kingdom to seek enlightenment. he just needed a 2ft by 6 ft space to rest his weary body.

  should buddhism enrich a monk or should a monk be "enriched" by buddhism, materialistically that is?

• Demon Bane

  8 Dec 10, 12:08

  A monk is also a human being. All human beings make mistakes.....

• leetahsar

  8 Dec 10, 12:20

  a good person usually feels bad when he does bad; feels good when he does good. a bad person would feel feel good when he does bad and feels bad when he does good.

  confusing!!

  maybe the monk wouldn't feel good when admitting his bad and continue to feel good when doing bad.

  yep! very confusing!!

• iceFatboy

  8 Dec 10, 13:15

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  
  u have a point for modern time, esp for those uninformed..i think during Buddha's time, those who know who the bad monks are, will still know; and those who don't know will still do not know and follow blindly, no need media to inform them. moreover Buddha's disciples should have high spiritual knowing power that are more powerful than media. but right and wrong will depend on one's cultivation and spiritual achievement.  so easily move by others mean their cultivation are not there. like for example u yourself know what's right and wrong. will u follow his actions thinking it's right? :)

  perhaps one's blind by fame.

  afaik, Buddha also have his long term reason for the silent treatment that is related to upholding one's precepts. if people see Buddhists never uphold their precepts, then they also follow not to uphold their precepts. then Buddhism will degenerate even faster.

  /\

  i like your answer.. pity, still so many, struck in the vortex..

• Pure Emptiness

  8 Dec 10, 13:46

  Originally posted by Demon Bane:

  A monk is also a human being. All human beings make mistakes.....

  
  He fashi nt monk , monk make mistake impact lesser. famous fashi make mistakes sure impact reputation by a lot.

• Amitayus48

  8 Dec 10, 14:59

  It is worthy for the SBF to consider 8 precepts (沙彌�戒) at least to the monastic way of life on the monks and nuns.

  《出家功德功》云：“诸布施中，出家功德，最为殊胜。å�³ä½¿ä¸€æ—¥ä¸€å¤œå�—æŒ�出家净戒，命终生天，二å��劫中ä¸�å •è�½ä¸‰æ¶‚，常生人间天上，最å�Žå�‘心，æˆ�辟支佛。”
  
  出家人的戒律, �严格地说，沙彌�戒.
  
  《�严�》上讲：就�众生��木，一切的生长，都��大地一样，出世间的善根都�戒��就。出世间就是我们�走�觉悟，��佛。

  http://www.bailinsi.net/06xly/03yjj/14/20yj-mhfs.htm

  
  ��时食戒，大概是从当天中�到第二天早上天亮�进食。严格地说，除了�以�水，��以�其他的食物。
  
  在出家人的修行中，��时食有助于我们禅定，有助于将身体里的粗的能���为细的能�，有助于身体内的能�管�的畅通。刚�讲的�性也就是这个问题，�性素质�高了。你有没有注�，�样是一碗饭，有人拿这碗饭去骂人�去打架�去�体力劳动，有的人拿这碗饭去写一篇文章，有的人拿这碗饭去�一个数学公�，有的人拿这碗饭的能�去打�，对�? 所以，�样这一碗饭在��的人身上所�挥出�的渠�是�一样的。我们�以生命境界�说呢，这个能�的通�是��的，能�粗细�用起��一样。
  
  如果你们在一日一夜的八关斋戒中能够体验到��时食带�的身心清凉和清净，那么你们就找到出家人的那个感觉了。那�感觉��体验一天或者一段时间，就会深深地�在你们的心里。因为我们平常比较注�满足我们的欲望，这个差别很大。在佛教里有一个比喻，我们满足自己欲望的快�相当于我们长了疥疮去挠，越挠越舒�，但是到一定的时候，就被你挠破了，很痛啊�所以，我们欲望的满足也是这个��。

• Dawnfirstlight

  8 Dec 10, 20:56

  One of Ven. Ming Yi's supporter spoke to me yesterday. She told me she did not see anything wrong with Ming Yi holding the $200K gala dinner. She said as long as he could afford it, he could do anything he liked. I really do not know what to say to her. I wonder does she know what are the things that monks are supposed and not supposed to do. Hopefully not many Buddhists are like her.