Is Yi Kwan Tao Buddhism?
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Originally posted by Zenist69:
Like I said, there are lots of elementary Buddhism textbooks out there. Why cant they serve as entry and foundation to Buddhism instead?
He advocate only to people that have respect in a teacher? Not true. His DVD, he cant see who's the audience at the other end. When he record his so call 'learning process', his dharma talk, he should know that it will be spread out, propagate thru DVD distribution and Internet. So, this skillful mean defense dun apply here.
and like i said, they CAN, if they have TIME to read and study, and that there are too MANY.
yea, u have this point that he cannot see. though many of us here seeing them can understand and interprete it correctly. so u have to decern and pick for yourselve. not asking u to follow all that u cannot understand. those who can decern well out of respect for any teacher, get the real message. the real message is the matter at hand. he pointing the moon with the finger, but some people keep clinging on the finger and don't see the moon.
some of the message are ch'an messages. if one have some ch'an knowledge, one'll understand. as we know ch'an message are non-sensical. they said "if you meet Buddha in the road, kill him." ....then u really kill a buddha? not true what.
or the ch'an story of burning the Buddha statue for heat and honouring firewood as Buddha. so it's in the heart/mind that count, not the label.
http://www.purifymind.com/StoryBuddhaStatue.htm
difficult to explain, as a half glass of water, i see half empty, you see half full. u must see us upside down, we see u upside down..é¢ å€’æ˜¯é�ž 是é�žé¢ 倒.
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Sinwei you said: as mentioned, the simple reason, is because many household buddhists nowaday (like me) do not have much time to read the vast hinayana (foundation) sutras, due to working and all. Confucianism and Daoism helped by consolidated it to something more summarised and most of all, more effective.He advocate it to all people that have respect in a teacher. if not, if he see u no respect, he won't say.
and also he's sharing and recording his learning process. the people listen can pick which ever useful to their daily life. to me, i also don't follow all everything. as some are talking to christian, or Confucianism and Daoism, telling them to learn their own teachings well and be a good person. Same like Dalai Lama is doing now. He's not converting people.
Sinwei, are you sure only "HINAyana" teaches morals? As i have mentioned to you, Buddhism we have 5 precepts, 10 wholesome deeds and codes of living from the Singalovada Sutra (Shan Sheng Jing 善生�) you have no time to read and accept these teachings of the Buddha that we have to start resorting to using tai shang gan yin pian, dizigui, holy bible and quran for our Buddhist progress.
We should respect even non buddhist teachings, no doubt for that but we should not advocate or spread it. I have respect for Taoism but that does not equate to me as a Buddhist to start spreading Taoism and puting a statue of tai shang lao jun beside my Buddha and more n more. Respect is something we all need to give but advocating and mixing into Buddhism is something we Buddhists should draw the line and refrain from doing.
If the talks on Tai Shang gan Yin Pian, Bible, Quran are distribited within the followers of the respective faiths, I can understand but the problem is now these talks are distributed amongst Buddhist and in Buddhist temples distribution corners. Instead of leading taoists, christians and muslims to Buddhism, you lead Buddhists to rojak Buddhism and all other religions are same, thus losing the exclusivity in the Buddha's teachings.
From 五乘共法 to 三乘共法 to 大乘�共法 none of these include non buddhist teachings, becos the basic of wu cheng gong fa requires acknowledeing the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha as a source of refuge.
I am not advocating for Buddhist to go convert people and win "souls" for Buddha, I am asking that we as Buddhists do not need to corrupt the Buddha teachings by importing non buddhist texts and teachings into Buddhism making Buddhism a "3 religion or all religion oneness" faith. -
end of the day, it's different affinity. some will go and follow YKT thinking it's right. u cannot control much. it's up to the person to discern for themselve, now with the mass media explosion. our right dharma also have NO Choice but to use mass media to propagate, and teach people to do good. if not it will fade away.
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Originally posted by WeeShun:
Sinwei you said: as mentioned, the simple reason, is because many household buddhists nowaday (like me) do not have much time to read the vast hinayana (foundation) sutras, due to working and all. Confucianism and Daoism helped by consolidated it to something more summarised and most of all, more effective.He advocate it to all people that have respect in a teacher. if not, if he see u no respect, he won't say.
and also he's sharing and recording his learning process. the people listen can pick which ever useful to their daily life. to me, i also don't follow all everything. as some are talking to christian, or Confucianism and Daoism, telling them to learn their own teachings well and be a good person. Same like Dalai Lama is doing now. He's not converting people.
Sinwei, are you sure only "HINAyana" teaches morals? As i have mentioned to you, Buddhism we have 5 precepts, 10 wholesome deeds and codes of living from the Singalovada Sutra (Shan Sheng Jing 善生�) you have no time to read and accept these teachings of the Buddha that we have to start resorting to using tai shang gan yin pian, dizigui, holy bible and quran for our Buddhist progress.
We should respect even non buddhist teachings, no doubt for that but we should not advocate or spread it. I have respect for Taoism but that does not equate to me as a Buddhist to start spreading Taoism and puting a statue of tai shang lao jun beside my Buddha and more n more. Respect is something we all need to give but advocating and mixing into Buddhism is something we Buddhists should draw the line and refrain from doing.
If the talks on Tai Shang gan Yin Pian, Bible, Quran are distribited within the followers of the respective faiths, I can understand but the problem is now these talks are distributed amongst Buddhist and in Buddhist temples distribution corners. Instead of leading taoists, christians and muslims to Buddhism, you lead Buddhists to rojak Buddhism and all other religions are same, thus losing the exclusivity in the Buddha's teachings.
From 五乘共法 to 三乘共法 to 大乘�共法 none of these include non buddhist teachings, becos the basic of wu cheng gong fa requires acknowledeing the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha as a source of refuge.
I am not advocating for Buddhist to go convert people and win "souls" for Buddha, I am asking that we as Buddhists do not need to corrupt the Buddha teachings by importing non buddhist texts and teachings into Buddhism making Buddhism a "3 religion or all religion oneness" faith.There are many Buddhist temples conducting Di Zi Gui lessons for young children. So, who says it cannot be an entry point to Buddhism. Don't you think Di Zi Gui is easier for the children than 五乘共法 , 三乘共法 , 大乘�共法.
Be honest with yourself, can you practise according to Di Zi Gui. Let me be honest with you, I can't. MCK is only saying as a stepping stone. What is wrong with that ?
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Dawnligth you said: I have no comments if Yi Kwan Dao stands on its own and did not claim their link to Buddhism, but that is not the case. They went round telling people that Amitabha's era is over, now it is another era which is what they are promoting. This is not true, there are many Buddhists who experienced the existence of Amitabha. Spreading the false dharma is a serious matter as it will æ–众生的法身慧命。
I have no comments for other religion which threaten their followers as long as they don't claim their linkage to Buddhism. That is why I choose Buddhism which does not threaten its followers. What is there to threaten if the religion is the truth. So, to me Buddhism is the truth.
I have listened to MJK's talk but I did not hear what you mentioned that he said God has many faces. But anyway, he did say the only way to Pureland is to recite Amitabha's name which he is promoting unless you tell me MJK advise people to recite Tai Shan Lao Jun's name to go Pureland. If he did, I will agree that it is not right.
Dawnlight, Yi kwan Tao claims Sakyamuni Buddha's era is over not amitabha buddha's era. Simialrly, Ven CK says now Buddhism is no longer enough to save and uplift the moral standards of Human and he further says in this era, only Taoism and Confucianism can uplift human standards now. issn't such a proclaimation æ–众生的法身慧命?
Since you have no comments on other religons who threatens their followers why did you object to Yi Kwan Tao so fervently?
I will source for all these of Ven CKs teachings out for you to research and please don't say I æ–ç« å�–义, you should read it and verify for yourself.
Ven Ck says He can recite on the bible and quran to go pureland. Yeah, he did say this explicitly. (Hold! people will start to argue, must understand the meaning not the word he say) sorry to say, the word was already wrong from the beginning to potray the correct meaning behind it. -
HINAyana.
:)
btw my hinayana understanding is not what some people think it is.
re-post:
base on experience on Hua Yen Sutra/Buddha vehicle(Yi chan fa), and seeing people's reactions, i had notice the difference between [I]hinayana and mahayana [/I]not base on the apparent or what people had wrote or journalized, that said Theravada is Theravada/Arahathood and Mahayana is Mahayana/Bodhisattvahood. or Theravada is hinayana.
actually. i think within Theravada, there's mahayana And hinayana. And within Mahayana, there's hinayana and mahayana. All in one, one in All. note i use cap for the 'm' and 'M'.
So what's the differences? i think....
hinayana cultivator - emphasis on the apparent meaning of what Buddha said; emphasis on sunyata of self; clear distinction between Buddhism from worldly dharma; prefer to meditate base on stillness of body; avoid polutions best as possible.
mahayana cultivator - emphasis more on the significant than apparent; emphasis on sunyata of self And Dharma itself; able to blend/use worldly dharma to convert into Buddhadharma; "tong zhong xiu" able meditate amidst daily activities. ie they after cultivated bodily stillness in the mountain, they re-enter 'polutions' of urban area to enhance their meditative stillness. such standard of stillness of the mind powerful.
so sometime i fall into the hinayana category and sometimes in mahayana category. but look forward to practice like mahayana standard, while hinayana is my foundation.
ps: why i rather use the word 'hinayana' is because so that we can differ within Mahayana. so it's not directly refering to Theravada./\
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Sinwei, you did not ans the crux of my question, but nevermind so i repost my question.
Does Theravada Buddhism not teaches morals? As i have mentioned to you, Buddhism we have 5 precepts, 10 wholesome deeds and codes of living from the Singalovada Sutra (Shan Sheng Jing 善生�) or even the Mangala Sutta on the 32 blessings (These are shorter discourses than those non buddhist texts) you have no time to read and accept these teachings of the Buddha that we have to start resorting to using tai shang gan yin pian, dizigui, holy bible and quran for our Buddhist progress?
This is my question. -
Originally posted by WeeShun:
Ven Ck says He can recite on the bible and quran to go pureland. Yeah, he did say this explicitly. (Hold! people will start to argue, must understand the meaning not the word he say) sorry to say, the word was already wrong from the beginning to potray the correct meaning behind it.
ch'an also said "if you meet Buddha in the road, kill him." .... -
Repost:
Sinwei, you did not ans the crux of my question, but nevermind so i repost my question.
Does Buddhism on the whole not teaches morals? As i have mentioned to you, Buddhism we have 5 precepts, 10 wholesome deeds and codes of living from the Singalovada Sutra (Shan Sheng Jing 善生�) or even the Mangala Sutta on the 32 blessings (These are shorter discourses than those non buddhist texts) you have no time to read and accept these teachings of the Buddha that we have to start resorting to using tai shang gan yin pian, dizigui, holy bible and quran for our Buddhist progress?
This is my question. -
sinweiy, you seem like to suddenly use zen koans now. So you want to tell me i am attached to Dharma now?
If you cannot discuss healthiy and I will start using your zen koan way to rely you and in the end it leads to no where
to beginn with: I spank you 3000 times and ask you to eat dog shit. Dogs have Buddha nature but sinweiy u have no buddha nature. ZEN KOAN way of answering copying you.
See where this kind of discussions leads to, it leads to nowhere? You say somewhere I hit you 300 times you say nowhere I hit you 3000 times, you say only don;t know mind, i also hit you 30000 times, you keep silent I hit you 300000 times, you give a smile i ask you to bang the wall, you dont bang the wall, I say you got no buddha nature and you bang the wall i say u got no buddha nature.
Sinweiy, advise for you. don't use zen koasn for discussions, its more meant for realizations, esp for purelander buddhists, we should hold dearly to the name and vow power of amitabha Buddha alone. -
Originally posted by WeeShun:
Dawnligth you said: I have no comments if Yi Kwan Dao stands on its own and did not claim their link to Buddhism, but that is not the case. They went round telling people that Amitabha's era is over, now it is another era which is what they are promoting. This is not true, there are many Buddhists who experienced the existence of Amitabha. Spreading the false dharma is a serious matter as it will æ–众生的法身慧命。
I have no comments for other religion which threaten their followers as long as they don't claim their linkage to Buddhism. That is why I choose Buddhism which does not threaten its followers. What is there to threaten if the religion is the truth. So, to me Buddhism is the truth.
I have listened to MJK's talk but I did not hear what you mentioned that he said God has many faces. But anyway, he did say the only way to Pureland is to recite Amitabha's name which he is promoting unless you tell me MJK advise people to recite Tai Shan Lao Jun's name to go Pureland. If he did, I will agree that it is not right.
Dawnlight, Yi kwan Tao claims Sakyamuni Buddha's era is over not amitabha buddha's era. Simialrly, Ven CK says now Buddhism is no longer enough to save and uplift the moral standards of Human and he further says in this era, only Taoism and Confucianism can uplift human standards now. issn't such a proclaimation æ–众生的法身慧命?
Since you have no comments on other religons who threatens their followers why did you object to Yi Kwan Tao so fervently?
I will source for all these of Ven CKs teachings out for you to research and please don't say I æ–ç« å�–义, you should read it and verify for yourself.
Ven Ck says He can recite on the bible and quran to go pureland. Yeah, he did say this explicitly. (Hold! people will start to argue, must understand the meaning not the word he say) sorry to say, the word was already wrong from the beginning to potray the correct meaning behind it.If Yi Kuan Tao claims that Sakyamuni Buddha's era is over, why are they still praying to Goddess of Mercy ? Sakyamuni Buddha was the one who told us about Goddess of Mercy and yet Yi Kuan Tao only recognises Goddess of Mercy and not Buddha which does not make sense at all. 忘�负义, 过河拆桥。WithoutSakyamuni Buddha, they will not even know there is a Goddess of Mercy. In Yi Kuan Tao, Goddess of Mercy is one of their main God.
As I said, I have problem with Yi Kuan Tao because they claim their linkage to Buddhism.
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Originally posted by WeeShun:
Dawnligth you said: I have no comments if Yi Kwan Dao stands on its own and did not claim their link to Buddhism, but that is not the case. They went round telling people that Amitabha's era is over, now it is another era which is what they are promoting. This is not true, there are many Buddhists who experienced the existence of Amitabha. Spreading the false dharma is a serious matter as it will æ–众生的法身慧命。
I have no comments for other religion which threaten their followers as long as they don't claim their linkage to Buddhism. That is why I choose Buddhism which does not threaten its followers. What is there to threaten if the religion is the truth. So, to me Buddhism is the truth.
I have listened to MJK's talk but I did not hear what you mentioned that he said God has many faces. But anyway, he did say the only way to Pureland is to recite Amitabha's name which he is promoting unless you tell me MJK advise people to recite Tai Shan Lao Jun's name to go Pureland. If he did, I will agree that it is not right.
Dawnlight, Yi kwan Tao claims Sakyamuni Buddha's era is over not amitabha buddha's era. Simialrly, Ven CK says now Buddhism is no longer enough to save and uplift the moral standards of Human and he further says in this era, only Taoism and Confucianism can uplift human standards now. issn't such a proclaimation æ–众生的法身慧命?
Since you have no comments on other religons who threatens their followers why did you object to Yi Kwan Tao so fervently?
I will source for all these of Ven CKs teachings out for you to research and please don't say I æ–ç« å�–义, you should read it and verify for yourself.
Ven Ck says He can recite on the bible and quran to go pureland. Yeah, he did say this explicitly. (Hold! people will start to argue, must understand the meaning not the word he say) sorry to say, the word was already wrong from the beginning to potray the correct meaning behind it.Yi Kwan Tao causes many people to turn away from main stream Buddhism, whereas many people take 3 refuges because of MCK. Whether Dizigui or waidao, I know many people who have taken 3 refuges under MCK are reciting Amituofo diligently. So, do you see the difference ? Yi Kwan Tao æ–众生的法身慧命but MCK did not, instead he has helped many to turn to main stream Buddhism.
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dawnlgiht you said: If Yi Kuan Tao claims that Sakyamuni Buddha's era is over, why are they still praying to Goddess of Mercy ? Sakyamuni Buddha was the one who told us about Goddess of Mercy and yet Yi Kuan Tao only recognises Goddess of Mercy and not Buddha which does not make sense at all. 忘�负义, 过河拆桥。WithoutSakyamuni Buddha, they will not even know there is a Goddess of Mercy. In Yi Kuan Tao, Goddess of Mercy is one of their main God.
As I said, I have problem with Yi Kuan Tao because they claim their linkage to Buddhism.
Dawn: First to beginn, I have never agreed with Yi kwan Tao. Secondly, how is it different from Yi kwan Tao claims of Sakyamuni Buddha era over and now its their era to Ven Ck's claim of "this era buddhism no longer enough to uplift the moral standards, only Taoism and confucianism can do that"
Issn't Yi Kwan Tao claims and Ven Ck's claim almost the same in nature? Ven Ck too preaches these in the great image and linkeage of Buddhism. -
Dawn you said: Yi Kwan Tao causes many people to turn away from main stream Buddhism, whereas many people take 3 refuges because of MCK. Whether Dizigui or waidao, I know many people who have taken 3 refuges under MCK are reciting Amituofo diligently. So, do you see the difference ? Yi Kwan Tao æ–众生的法身慧命but MCK did not, instead he has helped many to turn to main stream Buddhism.
Dawn: err .. how mainstream buddhism is that by a Buddhist ignoring the Buddha's teachings or even combining it with taoism, confucian, bible and quran?
very mainstream? -
Originally posted by WeeShun:
Dawn you said: Yi Kwan Tao causes many people to turn away from main stream Buddhism, whereas many people take 3 refuges because of MCK. Whether Dizigui or waidao, I know many people who have taken 3 refuges under MCK are reciting Amituofo diligently. So, do you see the difference ? Yi Kwan Tao æ–众生的法身慧命but MCK did not, instead he has helped many to turn to main stream Buddhism.
Dawn: err .. how mainstream buddhism is that by a Buddhist ignoring the Buddha's teachings or even combining it with taoism, confucian, bible and quran?
very mainstream?To me, as long as MCK did not ask people to recite other gods'name besides Amituofo to go Pureland is considered as mainstream. The rest that he quoted is only stepping stones.
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to what i know, china last time also have 俱�宗, �实宗, which are in line with "hinayana" teachings, but when Buddhism went into china, slowly the past well learnt ancient masters stopped propagating them with the knowing that china's own teaching system can teach the moral conduct better. 10 wholesome deeds are a step higher than Dizigui.
so u agree that there are "non-sensical", yet sensical saying in Buddhism.
sorry i won't answer all the demanding questions until i see at least 50 over % of some respect toward old master. without the respect, i won't answer.
as too difficult to explain, as a half glass of water, i see half empty, you see half full.
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Dawnlight: To me, as long as MCK did not ask people to recite other gods'name besides Amituofo to go Pureland is considered as mainstream. The rest that he quoted is only stepping stones.
Yeah. sinweiy says Namo Tai Shang Lao Jun also can go amitabha Buddha's pureland and he also said that by relying on the bible and quran, buddhist also can go to Amitabha Buddhas pureland. -
yes if i at level of 法云地. if not Amituofo for now. also the more people recite the same thing, the more power it has. ride with the wind.
not say cannot be done.
the ch'an story of burning the Buddha statue for heat and honouring firewood as Buddha. so it's in the heart/mind that count, not the label.
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sinweiy, so i finally got somethng from you.
You finally admit that as a Buddhist, you find Buddhism incomplete and empty of foundation as that you have to seek dizigui and taishang gan yinpian as the foundational aspect of Buddhism. (Can this corresponds to the wu sheng gong fa as taught in Buddhism?
Since you cannot answer my questions, its allright becos there are many pairs of eyes and brains out there who can see and judge for themselves.
See the Buddha kill the Buddha right? I spank you heavily 30000 times, becos there is no Buddha and no eyes no senses no sight. Love the way you u use zen koans to construct a unhealthy exchange of proper discussions.
Rely on Amitabha Buddha and his vow power alone is suffice.
Namo Amituofo -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
and like i said, they CAN, if they have TIME to read and study, and that there are too MANY.
yea, u have this point that he cannot see. though many of us here seeing them can understand and interprete it correctly. so u have to decern and pick for yourselve. not asking u to follow all that u cannot understand. those who can decern well out of respect for any teacher, get the real message. the real message is the matter at hand. he pointing the moon with the finger, but some people keep clinging on the finger and don't see the moon.
some of the message are ch'an messages. if one have some ch'an knowledge, one'll understand. as we know ch'an message are non-sensical. they said "if you meet Buddha in the road, kill him." ....then u really kill a buddha? not true what.
or the ch'an story of burning the Buddha statue for heat and honouring firewood as Buddha. so it's in the heart/mind that count, not the label.
http://www.purifymind.com/StoryBuddhaStatue.htm
difficult to explain, as a half glass of water, i see half empty, you see half full.
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What do u mean if they can, if they have the time? Elementary Buddhist text book are written in simple language. Cannot read elementary Buddhist textbook, but can read Di Zi Gui and Tai Shang Gan Yin Pian? Got time to read Confucianism book and Daoism book, no time to read Elementary Buddhist textbook?
And also, the content. Confucianism and Daoism teachings though some of it are compatible to Buddhism, nevertheless, its not Buddhism. Asking people to go read those non buddhist book as entry to Buddhism, thats misleading. A detour.
He's very clear on his position of using Confucianism and Daoism as entry and foundation to Buddhism. Roots he said. Confucianism and Daoism are roots of Buddhism. Its not a Chan koan. Its explicit.
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Originally posted by Zenist69:
What do u mean if they can, if they have the time? Elementary Buddhist text book are written in simple language. Cannot read elementary Buddhist textbook, but can read Di Zi Gui and Tai Shang Gan Yin Pian? Got time to read Confucianism book and Daoism book, no time to read Elementary Buddhist textbook?
And also, the content. Confucianism and Daoism teachings though some of it are compatible to Buddhism, nevertheless, its not Buddhism. Asking people to go read those non buddhist book as entry to Buddhism, thats misleading. A detour.
He's very clear on his position of using Confucianism and Daoism as entry and foundation to Buddhism. Roots he said. Confucianism and Daoism are roots of Buddhism. Its not a Chan koan. Its explicit.
never mind, zero thought is kind to post from late Venerable Master Hsuan Hua in the link. don't say u dun know.
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/420304
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yes if i at level of 法云地. if not Amituofo for now. also the more people recite the same thing, the more power it has. ride with the wind.
not say cannot be done.
Sinwei, can i know which sutra or where did the Buddha stated that at the 10th Bhumi of Fa Yun Di, reciting Namo Taishang Lao Jun can go to pureland? or just your personal mere assumption. -
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
There are many Buddhist temples conducting Di Zi Gui lessons for young children. So, who says it cannot be an entry point to Buddhism. Don't you think Di Zi Gui is easier for the children than 五乘共法 , 三乘共法 , 大乘�共法.
Be honest with yourself, can you practise according to Di Zi Gui. Let me be honest with you, I can't. MCK is only saying as a stepping stone. What is wrong with that ?
Basic elementary Buddhist textbooks are easier than Di Zi Gui.
Its a wrong stepping stone. Buddhism has got elementary reading material, much simpler than Di Zi Gui. Start from there then. Why he advocate Di Zi Gui instead? Isn't it clear he is bias against Buddhism cant do the job of covering the entry and foundation of Buddhism?
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zenist69, you are right. Its already wrong to begin with non buddhist scriptures especially true in the Singapore context now.
The idea is not to bash Taoism, Confucianism or other religions. The simple message is START ON THE RIGHT PATH - the BUDDHA'S PATH.
Kudos again for your perserverence -
法云地, all and all they truely awakened to emptiness and self. the idea are countless to be recordered. 法云地 eat metal also can become food. è¬å¦‚金山活佛 is one example in real life.