Namo Medicine Buddha
Namo Millions buddha of the Ten Realms
Namo Dharma Protectors of the Ten Realms
Weeshun you are a gentleman. Thank you for clarifying about the pen and sand tray.
I am not saying you are bashing other faiths, it's clearly you don't.
I am saying you are bashing Monk Jing Kong for encouraging readings of other texts. He is an elderly monk and a good dharma master but you and Zenist69 bash him exactly on his status as a dharma master. I think it's not right. You two can disagree with Monk Jing Kong. You are also entitled to your opinions but the manner you both critize Monk Jing Kong is too self righteous and opinionated. Both of you are describing him as kind of a "Sinner".
Secondly, both of you are bend on having only one Buddha in your vision of the right kind of Buddhism. The Amituofo Buddha. This is also vastly out of context with Buddhism teachings. You two should visit the Buddha tooth relics temple and count how many buddhas are there in the temple.
Do you two know that some Buddhists recite only the names of Dharma Protectors and not even Buddha. They also want to enter the Pureland of the Dharma Protectors. ( tibetan buddhism)
Thirdly, you remind me of Hitler who wanted to annilate the Jews because he wanted a pure race in his country. Your one Amituofo Buddha is good enough is puritan and totalitan opinion. It's definitely not what Sakyamuni Buddha has been teaching.
Fourthly i do not agree with you that Buddha's Way is the only Way. Others' faiths also say that their Way is the only Way. Everyone says the same phrase. But is it really true ?
wiser said: Namo Medicine Buddha
Namo Millions buddha of the Ten Realms
Weeshun you are a gentleman. Thank you for clarifying about the pen and sand tray.
I am not saying you are bashing other faiths, it's clearly you don't.
I am saying you are bashing Monk Jing Kong for encouraging readings of other texts. He is an elderly monk and a good dharma master but you and Zenist69 bash him exactly on his status as a dharma master. I think it's not right. You two can disagree with Monk Jing Kong. You are also entitled to your opinions but the manner you both critize Monk Jing Kong is too self righteous and opinionated. Both of you are describing him as kind of a "Sinner".
Secondly, both of you are bend on having only one Buddha in your vision of the right kind of Buddhism. The Amituofo Buddha. This is also vastly out of context with Buddhism teachings. You two should visit the Buddha tooth relics temple and count how many buddhas are there in the temple.
Thirdly, you remind me of Hitler who wanted to annilate the Jews because he wants a pure race in his country. Your one Amituofo Buddha is good enough is puritan and totalitan opinion. It's definitely not what Sakyamuni Buddha has been teaching.
Wiser: i can equally rejoice that you contemplate on the name of Medicine Buddha and the infinte buddhas of the 3 times and 10 directions. I all totally rejoice at this auspicious karmic affinity you created with all these great Buddhas and Bodhisatvas, Amituofo and still amituofo for that! wonderful.
First, I do not see myself in any position to bash Venerable Chin Kung, what we are discussing here is that for the good and healthy progress of Buddhism, we should keep non-buddhist teachings out from Buddhist practises, because as Buddhists we know the Buddha's teaching alone is suffice for us.
As for a Dharma Master, A person who propagates the Dharma is known as the teacher of the Dharma but a person who propagates non-dharma is known as Non-Dharma teacher. In the vinayas, layman are not allowed from discussing the vinayas of sangha members and however, here we are not on a platform of discussing Ven Chin Kung's vinaya codes, we are on a platform of the Dharma which the Buddha had entrusted us before his final Nirvana.
Quoting from the Nirvana Sutra: "Teach the Dhamma, declare it, establish it, expound it, analyse it, make it clear, and be able by means of the Dhamma to refute false teachings that have arisen.
A Buddhist once wrote "Subjecting a point of view to careful scrutiny and criticism has an important part to play in helping to winnow truth from falsehood, so that we can be in a better position to choose between "the two and sixty contending sects. "Criticism of another religion only becomes inappropriate when it is based on a deliberate misrepresentation of that religion, or when it descends into an exercise in ridicule and name-calling.
I have never resorted to calling ugly names upon Ven CK and infact i disagree to names calling as I told Zenist in another topic, this is not gracious and contributing to a healthy discussion. Thus I do not consider Ven CK as a sinner and I am nobody to judge. However, when Ven Ck has opened a doors to other religious texts which cannot even compliment the teachings of the Buddha, such beliefs should be subjected to scritinity. Remember the Buddha had always asked us to rely on the Dharma not the person, we should always carefully think for what is right and what is wrong, we do not accept just because one wears a robe or one appears to be elder. There is a chinese saying, some people are 越�越糊涂, but so we should always carefully examine no matter words from young or old, lay or ordained.
I have a serious problem with you claiming that I have only one Buddha in my mind, as I mentioned, Amitabha Buddha is the Buddha which I have most karmic affinity with and thus I practised the Pureland Dharma door. However as a Pureland Buddhist, that does not mean I deny other Buddhas and Bodhisattvas! As long as it is the teachings of our teacher Sakyamuni Buddha, we should uphold and propagate it. If I have been secterian like you said, I would have only printed Pureland Sutras for distribution and do my yearly Sangha Dana to only Pureland Venerables, which I never did.
Lastly, I don't know since when did i want to destory another religion as you compared to the "hitler and jews". Have I wanted to destory Taoism? Confucianism? Christianity? Islam? burn their scriptures?
I guess you are still unclear of what the topics which zenist and myself have been going to, its a simple message.
As Buddhist, we start on the Buddha's path, practise only the Buddha;s teachings and build our foundational entry to Buddhism through the Buddha's teachings NOT teachings and scriptures outside Buddhism for those are teachings not taught by our Buddha Sakyamuni. This does not equte to bashing nor denying these non buddhist teachings, we should respect and recongise it but not import into Buddhism to be practised as foundational entries to Buddhism and more should not propagate it to existing Buddhists. The Buddha's teachings has already covered all.
Lastly, I get your point that saying Buddha's way is not the only way, this is quite simalr to Yi Kwan Tao corresponding back to the topic of this thread, Yi kwan Tao believes that all religions are ways too. But for Buddhist, the Triple Gems alone is suffice, no need additional gods, texts and priests. This is why Buddhists build our refuge upon the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
Namo Amituofo
Originally posted by Wiser:Namo Medicine Buddha
Namo Millions buddha of the Ten Realms
Namo Dharma Protectors of the Ten Realms
Weeshun you are a gentleman. Thank you for clarifying about the pen and sand tray.
I am not saying you are bashing other faiths, it's clearly you don't.
I am saying you are bashing Monk Jing Kong for encouraging readings of other texts. He is an elderly monk and a good dharma master but you and Zenist69 bash him exactly on his status as a dharma master. I think it's not right. You two can disagree with Monk Jing Kong. You are also entitled to your opinions but the manner you both critize Monk Jing Kong is too self righteous and opinionated. Both of you are describing him as kind of a "Sinner".
Secondly, both of you are bend on having only one Buddha in your vision of the right kind of Buddhism. The Amituofo Buddha. This is also vastly out of context with Buddhism teachings. You two should visit the Buddha tooth relics temple and count how many buddhas are there in the temple.
Do you two know that some Buddhists recite only the names of Dharma Protectors and not even Buddha. They also want to enter the Pureland of the Dharma Protectors. ( tibetan buddhism)
Thirdly, you remind me of Hitler who wanted to annilate the Jews because he wanted a pure race in his country. Your one Amituofo Buddha is good enough is puritan and totalitan opinion. It's definitely not what Sakyamuni Buddha has been teaching.
Fourthly i do not agree with you that Buddha's Way is the only Way. Others' faiths also say that their Way is the only Way. Everyone says the same phrase. But is it really true ?
You should know better. The issue is not Ven JK encouraging people to read non buddhist text. Its more than that. He teaches, advocating Confucianism and Daoism as entry and foundation to Buddhism.
If stating as it is, thats too opinionated and self righteous, then I am sorry, I dun see any other efficient way than stating it as it is.
When did I tell u say there's only one Buddha - The Amitoufo?!!? I dun even noe why am I talking to u now. The first few exchange of messages with u, u deliberately twist and turn the article which I shown u, stating MJK didn't say Daoism is the roots of Buddhism. And I have to highlight it to u. That kind of dishonesty, little lies, sprinkle in almost all of your messages to me in the thread talking about MJK.
I understand one feel protective to the Dharma Master he/ she highly respect. But not to the extend of playing word games, and telling lies, twisting words, putting words into other people mouth when comes to discussion on the Dharma Master view, teaching.
Hitler? Why is it pointing out the false view of a Dharma Master make one Hitler? Like I said to u in other post, if stating one's view, thats forcing one's view on others, then are u saying that we should all shutup and keep our view to ourselves?
What about the other faith? This is a Buddhism forum, no? Whats wrong for Buddhist having strong faith in Buddhism?
AMTF
Dear Weeshun
I am not implying that you want to destroy other faiths. I am refering more to your puritan and totalitan viewpoint of ONE Buddha is the only Way. I disagree with that.
May be you and Zenist69 should pay a visit to Monk Jing Kong. Tell him what both of you feel. I think the best person to answer your dis-satisfaction is Monk Jing Kong himself. Stage a protest in front of his temple if you two want to. No point doing it here. It doesn't get to Monk Jing Kong himself.
Any-way, i have this different perspective from both of you. I think Monk Jing Kong is trying to introduce ancient China/Chinese teachings into Buddhism. Merging both worlds together.
Zenist69, watch your language. Calling other forummers liars here is damn rude. If you can't debate on the topic, then shut up.
wah this topic still hot
anyway a question out of context
am I a buddhist?
its supposed to be fri nite, chill time :)
to be or not to be....
there are people who dream to be a soaring bird, a seagull, phoenix, dragon...symbolizing their beliefs and conviction of what holds the best, the truth and possesses the greatest liberation...to be a buddhist, to be a christian, a muslim.....to be like water...to be rainbow...an infinite list of beliefs and idealism....
yet no beliefs are below one another as when their perception and beliefs are strong towards what they think and feel in their deepest ..
the language of hope
Wiser said: I am not implying that you want to destroy other faiths. I am refering more to your puritan and totalitan viewpoint of ONE Buddha is the only Way. I disagree with that.
May be you and Zenist69 should pay a visit to Monk Jing Kong. Tell him what both of you feel. I think the best person to answer your dis-satisfaction is Monk Jing Kong himself. Stage a protest in front of his temple if you two want to. No point doing it here. It doesn't get to Monk Jing Kong himself.
Any-way, i have this different perspective from both of you. I think Monk Jing Kong is trying to introduce ancient China/Chinese teachings into Buddhism. Merging both worlds together.
Zenist69, watch your language. Calling other forummers liars here is damn rude. If you can't debate on the topic, then shut up.
Wiser: The Buddha has taught the way, it is a fact that the Buddha had paved the path 2500 years ago for us, for Buddhists to follow and walk on the path accordingly, we shall attain just as what the Buddha has.
Do you mean it is wrong and narrow minded for Buddhists to practise Buddhism singlely? Err... now what's so wrong here for Buddhists to wholeheartely devote to the practise and propagation of only the teachings of our Lord Buddha?? anything wrong?
I do not see a need to stage a process aganist anyone, as I have mentioned from beginning in this thread, I believe in healthy and progressive discussion, each have their own choice of views and however if you chose to comment you should also have the courtesy to reply questions and back it up with scriptural proof in anycase to support your view, this is what i call a healthy discussion.
I believe I replied every question in full details instead of running away and posting a new question, I back my views and comments with proper research, analysis and proof, I reply every single question carefully with full comment because I respect the person whom questioned me but I am afraid the way you question n question ignoring my questions does not earn you any respect, you discredit yourself.
I have already shared with you that Buddhism has a full and complete system from foundational entry aspect all the way to university, there is no need for a Buddhist to rely on non buddhist texts bible, taishang, dizigui, quran as either entry or even ending. Also do you mean or imply that we have to start to cut and paste all the good values from other religions and make it the "foundational entry" for Buddhism? Does buddhism lack of these aspects that we have to resort to use other religious text to build our buddhist foundation? Did the Buddha not teach us the Buddhist foundation?
As a Buddhist, we follow the Buddha as our teacher
As a Buddhist, we practise the Dharma as our guide
As a Buddhist, we respect the Sangha as our friends
As a Buddhist whom seek refuge in the Triple Gems, whom we built our reliance upon the Triple Gems as the sole foundational rock of our faith, the triple gems solely is enough. Unless you want to tell us that Buddhism is incomplete or Buddhism is lacking of all those things which Taoism and Confucianism has.
This is the time where we should clarify what Buddhism is and what Buddhism is not, for the continuation of Buddhism and welfare of all sentient beings
Quoting from the straits times published on the 13th Jan 2011 for your reading:
But when the 47-year-old taxi driver enrolled for a course conducted by the Taoist College last year, he realised he was more a Taoist than a Buddhist.
Buddhism is about overcoming suffering by reaching enlightenment or by cultivating it, whereas Taoism is a philosophy for finding balance and harmony with the universe.
'Previously, I couldn't differentiate between Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism. I used to pray to Guanyin bodhisattva and so I thought I was Buddhist,' said Mr Kok, who is married with four children.
He added that he used to care only about making money.
However, his priorities changed when he reached age 44 and he wanted to understand more about life.
'I also wanted to find my own faith,' he said.
AMANDA TAN
Geis said : wah this topic still hot
anyway a question out of context
am I a buddhist?
its supposed to be fri nite, chill time :)
Geis: Nobody can judge or stop you from calling yourself a Buddhist or not. However, it is very much up to how you practise and how you establish you faith on the Buddha, the teachings and views that very much affects if what kind of Buddhist are you.
Why not you share with us what you believe Buddha and Buddhism is?
Dear Weeshun
I do not think that by using quotes and scriptures quotes prove that you truly understand the truth , the wisdom and the universe in which you are living in.
It is just academic discussion, using phrases and quotes from books to support your viewpoints. Being able to manipulate words, doesn't imply that you have digested what you read. Or that you have attained the level of wisdom taught in the scriptures.
Any professor who studied buddhism can do better than you. Theories and quotes are just that , theories and quotes.
Unless you tell me you have travelled to Amituofo Buddha Pureland during your meditation and you see for yourself exactly what is being written in the Amituofo sutra, then you can use your own personal experiences to share with others here.
Not using words from scriptures that you only READ. Understanding Buddhism is not studying Buddhism to the extent that you are repeating the words to throw at others in a discussion.
Originally posted by WeeShun:Geis said : wah this topic still hot
anyway a question out of context
am I a buddhist?
its supposed to be fri nite, chill time :)
Geis: Nobody can judge or stop you from calling yourself a Buddhist or not. However, it is very much up to how you practise and how you establish you faith on the Buddha, the teachings and views that very much affects if what kind of Buddhist are you.
Why not you share with us what you believe Buddha and Buddhism is?
to form beliefs about the Buddha is to not understand the teachings of the Buddha.
:) dun be lazy, just check out my posts or my blog
im not a buddhist im just a passerby learning the dharma. yet im a buddhist taking refuge in the the triple gems.
what i do know is this
got time to debate so much, why not just sit down and be with our breaths.
nothing else is more important.
Originally posted by Wiser:Dear Weeshun
I am not implying that you want to destroy other faiths. I am refering more to your puritan and totalitan viewpoint of ONE Buddha is the only Way. I disagree with that.
May be you and Zenist69 should pay a visit to Monk Jing Kong. Tell him what both of you feel. I think the best person to answer your dis-satisfaction is Monk Jing Kong himself. Stage a protest in front of his temple if you two want to. No point doing it here. It doesn't get to Monk Jing Kong himself.
Any-way, i have this different perspective from both of you. I think Monk Jing Kong is trying to introduce ancient China/Chinese teachings into Buddhism. Merging both worlds together.
Zenist69, watch your language. Calling other forummers liars here is damn rude. If you can't debate on the topic, then shut up.
You are a liar! U said I have only one Buddha in my vision of the right kind of Buddhism, The Amituofo Buddha, which is not true! So what is wrong to call u a liar? How about downgrade to intellectually dishonest? Feels better?
Dun flatter yourself. U are not interested in debating on the topic. U are interested in playing games and defend MJK here with any means, and trick in your pocket. WeeShun shouldn't waste time on you. This would be my last message to u.
Wiser said: I do not think that by using quotes and scriptures quotes prove that you truly understand the truth , the wisdom and the universe in which you are living in.
It is just academic discussion, using phrases and quotes from books to support your viewpoints. Being able to manipulate words, doesn't imply that you have digested what you read. Or that you have attained the level of wisdom taught in the scriptures.
Any professor who studied buddhism can do better than you. Theories and quotes are just that , theories and quotes.
Unless you tell me you have travelled to Amituofo Buddha Pureland during your meditation and you see for yourself exactly what is being written in the Amituofo sutra, then you can use your own personal experiences to share with others here.
Not using words from scriptures that you only READ. Understanding Buddhism is not studying Buddhism to the extent that you are repeating the words to throw at others in a discussion.
Wiser: When we want to discuss towards a healthy and progressive manner, facts, claims all should be credited from sources to support our claims and views. If you feel that Buddhist Sutras should not be quoted to prove Buddhist practises, then may I know how can one justify if this and that is or not a teaching of the Buddha. This is also the importance on why we need to spread the Dharma both in words and in deed. Infact the Dalai Lama had asked for all Buddha's teachings to be translated to Tibetan langague. http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=42,9818,0,0,1,0 It is not right to deny the value and existence of Buddhist sutras and quotes in support of the views and beliefs we build upon.
Also if you have found quoting from Buddhist sutras as something we should not do, I would like to point out the sutra you quoted from the Avamtasaka Sutra on "all beings have Buddha nature in them" Didn't you quote the sutra ? Of cos in your case, you quoted out of context and I quoted back to you the exact full sentence of the verse as a mark of respect for the Buddha's word.
Words will forever be words if we do not put words into practise but if there are no words as guidance, practise will not be able to proceed on. Also Buddhism is a intellectual religion which posses all areas from academic, philospical, religious and historical, it is perfectly why we need to learn the Dharma dilligently and be a Buddhist not only spiritually but also socially and academically. No, I do not agree to making Buddhism as a sole academic topic for research or debate, this will not progress Buddhism nor readers towards the Bodhi path. By the way, do not call Buddhist sutras just phrases and theories, because of these words, phrases and theories, the truth of Buddhism has been able to be passed on through generations after generations. Just as the Buddha had taught us to spread the Dharma (both in word and in deed) for the welfare of our sons and future generations.
The systematic approch to learn Buddhism consists of 4 stages namely: Faith, Understanding, Pratise and Attaining. 信解行� Faith is preliminary and we must proceed to learning the Dharma, listening to mitras (kind and noble learners of the Dharma) , analysing and proceed on to practise it dilligently which may be a simultanenous job with understanding as we practise before finally attaining the fruit of liberation. Furthermore, the Buddha had stressed on the importance on being able to encounter, listen and practise the Dharma, being unable to encounter the Dharma is considered as an unfortunate encounter read further in Ba Nan Chu 八难处。
Again，I got to repeat incase you cannot understand, the purposes of phrasing and backing up with proper evidence to sustian our views and beliefs about Buddhism is vital and the civillised way towards a healthy exchange of views. Don't you see the Lamas in tibetan doing the Dharma debate everyday? The motivation is to make the Dharma clearer through each and our personal understanding of the Dharma through righteous effort. IF a buddhist discussion had evolved to "I think Buddhism is like that so its like that, don't need to prove if the buddha had taught or not, as long i feel i like it, i believe in it and i claim it" such kind of beleifs are unhealthy to carry on a proper exchange of discussion.
I have not traveled to Pureland nor seen Amituofo for myself, I am building my faith upon the teachings which are the true words of Sakyamuni Buddha, the easy path for people like me to embrace Amitabha Buddha's never ending Grace and for I know, the Buddha speaks no lies but only the truth, as long I follow the Buddha's prescription about Amituofo's vow power, Pureland is mine for sure. Faith should be built upon the Buddha's teachings not personal experiences. However, we can always use personal experiences as a reference or encouragment for our practise on the Buddha's path.
Please credit your views if you want to engage in a healthy and progressive discussion. Otherwise, if you want to use "I think buddhism is like that then it's like that" mentality, this discussion will lead to nowhere but only to further boast your ego.
I put my hands together towards the Buddha nature in you.
Namo Amituofo.
gei said: to form beliefs about the Buddha is to not understand the teachings of the Buddha.
:) dun be lazy, just check out my posts or my blog
im not a buddhist im just a passerby learning the dharma. yet im a buddhist taking refuge in the the triple gems.
what i do know is this
got time to debate so much, why not just sit down and be with our breaths.
nothing else is more important.
Gei: To establish first a proper and true understanding of the Buddha is the first thing a Buddhist should do, such as the Buddha is not a God etc etc
Secondly, progressing it to learning and practising the Dharma and this is precisely why as a Buddhist the presence of Triple Gems is important, we cannot only take refuge in 2 gems or 1 gem or 1.5 gem.
Since you already have a answer that if you are a Buddhist or not a buddhist, you need not ask others if you are a buddhist for you have known it much more better anyone else here.
I do not consider this as debate, I consider it as a very healthy exchange of views and beleifs which will benefit myself in all aspects of my learning of the Dharma. A debate only becomes rotten when it has evolved into claims with no accreditions and names calling and boasting of one's ego. Such inpure motivation should never be the cause of a discussion to go on.
I respect your choice of wanting to sit down and breathe instead of participating in a discussion, it's again very much up to your personal choice, I have no qualms over that. However if you are now interested to participate to discuss after enough of "breathing" , i welcome you with clasped hands.
Namo Amituofo
Originally posted by Zenist69:You are a liar! U said I have only one Buddha in my vision of the right kind of Buddhism, The Amituofo Buddha, which is not true! So what is wrong to call u a liar? How about downgrade to intellectually dishonest? Feels better?
Dun flatter yourself. U are not interested in debating on the topic. U are interested in playing games and defend MJK here with any means, and trick in your pocket. WeeShun shouldn't waste time on you. This would be my last message to u.
Last message ? you sure...good riddance then.
Weeshun i see you want to sharpen your sword of debate with whoever can out-talk you on this forum.
Good luck then.
Any professor who teaches buddha dharma in the university here? Please engage Weeshun on a good round of debate.
I am sure it will be a good reading on the subject of Who is Buddha and what is Buddhism.
Yawn...time to breathe and open my chakra ....^^
Om Mani Padme hum....Om Mani Padme Hum....Om Mani Padme Hum