Originally posted by Zenist69:Pushing for Di Zi Gui to people who show interest in Buddhism, thats not right. 'cause Di Zi Gui is not Buddhism. Shouldn't pass Di Zi Gui off pretending it to be Buddhism text. Its almost like deception. I speak out on this issue here in this forum. So why does that make me fixated, dun noe about moderation and middle path?
MJK sect should heed this middle path advise. Stop pushing for Di Zi Gui. Maybe some people really not into Buddhism, boh bian, then we resort to other skillful means, such as sharing Di Zi Gui. But to push Di Zi Gui to all newbies, thats obsess with Di Zi Gui, attachment to wai dao books.
my humble 2 cents worth.
i dunno about Master Jing Kong's teachings directly that's why i will not comment. only if i have direct experience in his Sangha will i be able to comment. reading about it online is not enough.
so called wai dao or not is all dualistic concepts. if sweeping the floor can open the Dharma eye, anything can be the Dharma door.
Originally posted by geis:my humble 2 cents worth.
i dunno about Master Jing Kong's teachings directly that's why i will not comment. only if i have direct experience in his Sangha will i be able to comment. reading about it online is not enough.
so called wai dao or not is all dualistic concepts. if sweeping the floor can open the Dharma eye, anything can be the Dharma door.
Anything can be the dharma door, I agree with that. But no need to be fixated in Di Zi Gui as the door to Buddhism, am I right to point that out?
And also, to pass Di Zi Gui to people who curious and show interest in Buddhism, isn't that misleading?
Originally posted by geis:This is of course.
Well, the impression i get from your posts is you will give/ recommend/ push Buddhist books no matter what conditions.
the key word here is discernment. we need to discern the present conditions.
like i already mentioned. if Di Zi Gui reaches out to someone more, i will use that. if the Bible reaches out to someone more, i will use that too.
The condition is newbie who is curious and show interest in Buddhism! Thats the condition I am talking about all along.
So why push Di Zi Gui to those who had show interest and curious about Buddhism regardless? Thats not discernment. Thats not skillful means. Thats attachment to Di Zi Gui.
u not fixated? i already miss count how many thread u post regarding about it.
i think pushing or not depend on the situation. its like applying medicine, if illness is bad, u apply more. t'is what MJK see from his perspective. not necessary from our perspectives and working situation.
like u think the chinese culture is declining in the other thread, u push ur defending idea.
there's not much wrong-er or right-er. as æ³•æ— å®šæ³•. haha, zen-talk. see the current situations. Buddhism also changes. like Mahayana, Theravada think it's a changed form of buddhism. but is Mahayana wrong?
佛门也有两��,"慈悲多祸害,方便出下�". Compassion can also lead to evil doing, skillful mean lead to low grade people. if people so fix on Di Zi Gui and make them commit killing to those who do not fix on Di Zi Gui, i will be happy to defend with u.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:u not fixated? i already miss count how many thread u post regarding about it.
i think pushing or not depend on the situation. its like applying medicine, if illness is bad, u apply more. t'is what MJK see from his perspective. not necessary from our perspectives and working situation.
like u think the chinese culture is declining in the other thread, u push ur defending idea.there's not much wrong-er or right-er. as æ³•æ— å®šæ³•. haha, zen-talk. see the current situations. Buddhism also changes. like Mahayana, Theravada think it's a changed form of buddhism. but is Mahayana wrong?
佛门也有两��,"慈悲多祸害,方便出下�". Compassion can also lead to evil doing, skillful mean lead to low grade people. if people so fix on Di Zi Gui and make them commit killing to those who do not fix on Di Zi Gui, i will be happy to defend with u.
Because u guys dun get it, so i have to keep on explaining to u guys. I am doing my part of stop this nonsense of passing di zi gui to newbie who shown interest in buddhism.
I had already show u my reason, then lets talk about why is it my idea reasoning is wrong. Not turning and twisting throughout the thread. Please talk straight can u please do that?
Passing off Di Zi Gui as Buddhism text, thats deceptive and misleading. When newbie show interest in Buddhism, why need to introduce them to Di Zi Gui regardless? Thats not skillful means. Thats unskillful means.
Originally posted by Hun7qing77:å�‘å�„ä½�维护æ£æ³•çš„师兄, 师å§�, å�ˆä»€.
任何法师或é�“场对佛教å�Šä¼—生所å�šçš„一切, å…¶å› æžœè‡ªè´Ÿ. 法师æŒ�æ£çŸ¥æ£è§�, 弘扬佛法,普渡众生, 往生净土, å…¶åŠŸå¾·æ— é‡�. 必能为广大众生所接å�—. è‹¥å��å…¶é�“而行.
å…¶é�“场也会自å�–ç�亡,.必竞外é�“辨ä¸�过æ£æ³•.
佛的教育有八万四å�ƒæ³•é—¨, 弟å�规å�Šæ„Ÿåº”篇的å�«ä¹‰æ˜¯å�¦å·²åœ¨å…¶é—´?
Exactly. Thats how i feel about it. Unless really for some special reason, then, no choice introduce some other good book such as di zi gui or even bible. But for those already show interest in Buddhism, what did the MJK sect advocate? They go push Di Zi Gui to them. Thats why I am here voicing out my concern.
84000 dharma path, so many path, and yet, MJK sect wanna push Di Zi Gui as the basic text and foundation to Buddhism? Thats ridiculous.
Originally posted by Zenist69:Because u guys dun get it, so i have to keep on explaining to u guys. I am doing my part of stop this nonsense of passing di zi gui to newbie who shown interest in buddhism. Thats not right.
I had already show u my reason, then lets talk about why is it my idea is wrong. Not turning and twisting throughout the thread. And not making some nonsensical accusation that I am not walking middle path.
Passing off Di Zi Gui as Buddhism text, thats deceptive and misleading. When newbie show interest in Buddhism, why need to introduce them to Di Zi Gui instead regardless? Thats not skillful means. Thats unskillful means.
on the contary, u of those few people don't get it. majority here who are not wholehearted followers of MCK get it.
di zi gui from Li Yuxiu is simply an educational curriculum on morality not some waidao idea.
Originally posted by sinweiy:
on the contary, u of those few people don't get it. majority here who are not wholehearted followers of MCK get it.di zi gui from Li Yuxiu is simply an educational curriculum on morality not some waidao idea.
If one is a Buddhist, and keep on pushing Di Zi Gui for newbie who shown interest in Buddhism, thats very likely a MJK supporter! Are u saying that there are Buddhist who are not MJK supporter and insist to push for Di Zi Gui for all newbie to read??
Di Zi Gui is a good book 善书, a educational curriculum on morality or not, tats not the point! The point is dun go push di zi gui to newbie who show interest to Buddhism! 'cause Di Zi Gui is not Buddhism book!
Originally posted by Zenist69:Unless really for some special reason, then, no choice introduce some other good book such as di zi gui or even bible. But for those already show interest in Buddhism, what did the MJK sect advocate? They go push Di Zi Gui to them.
nope, we although already show interest in Buddhism ARE pushing, "Unless really for some special reason, then, no choice introduce some other good book such as di zi gui or even bible."
现今有很多人å¦å¼Ÿå�规, 他们从弟å�规的观念进入佛教ä¸�洽当å�—? 为何一直è¦�排斥MJK法师的倡导?
心善，人间处处是净土!( 新少林寺里说的)
Originally posted by Hun7qing77:现今有很多人å¦å¼Ÿå�规, 他们从弟å�规的观念进入佛教ä¸�洽当å�—? 为何一直è¦�排斥MJK法师的倡导?
心善，人间处处是净土!( 新少林寺里说的)
If they show interest in Buddhism, why not just pass them buddhism book? Why?
Originally posted by sinweiy:nope, we although already show interest in Buddhism ARE pushing, "Unless really for some special reason, then, no choice introduce some other good book such as di zi gui or even bible."
So why is it a case of no choice? People show interest in Buddhism! Thats a good start! Why need to introduce Di Zi Gui to newbies regardless? Why?
Originally posted by Zenist69:If one is a Buddhist, and keep on pushing Di Zi Gui for newbie who shown interest in Buddhism, thats very likely a MJK supporter! Are u saying that there are Buddhist who are not MJK supporter and insist to push for Di Zi Gui for all newbie to read??
Di Zi Gui is a good book 善书, a educational curriculum on morality or not, tats not the point! The point is dun go push di zi gui to newbie who show interest to Buddhism! 'cause Di Zi Gui is not Buddhism book!
of all the thread i didn't see a post that 'we' are Pushing the detail teaching of Di zi gui. if so we will be saying 'Hey u newbies , u all MUST "æœ�èµ·æ—©ï¼Œå¤œçœ é�² In the morning rise early; at night go to sleep late!"
as
For reasons of health, I think this verse should be changed to: "In the morning rise early; at night go immediately to sleep."
http://www.tsoidug.org/dizigui_trans_comp.php#Note7E
Why, oh why?
When I first got in contact with MCK teachings, I found them a tad too pious and smacking somewhat of Chinese chauvinism. I knew I wasn't totally comfortable with such a stance, but I still did come away learning an important attitude towards spiritual cultivation; which is to be single-minded and to persevere in practice.
Like what another forummer said at the beginning of one such related thread, I choose to take what's useful for me and leave what I'm not totally comfortable with.
Having said that, I now realise that what I'm probably most uncomfortable with about MCK's teachings is not so much what standards he uses to judge morality, but his views on sickness and seeking medical help. I have personally gone and read some of his talks where he mentions his views with regards to contracting diseases, and his attitude towards consulting doctors and taking medicine. His implication that staunch Buddhists who are practising well will not get sick and if sick, can get well simply by faith, is a form magical thinking. I found it irresponsible and reckless.
Sorry. I know adherents of MCK's teachings will be upset, but I realise I must speak up because this question mark has been on my mind.
While I do wish Zenist were less militant and adamant in his arguments and will stop going on and on, I really do feel like he was also pushed into a corner right from the start. This made him need to defend more and more.
Originally posted by Zenist69:So why is it a case of no choice? People show interest in Buddhism! Thats a good start! Why need to introduce Di Zi Gui to newbies regardless? Why?
hehe, u tell me, u are the one that wrote "no choice".
Originally posted by sinweiy:
of all the thread i didn't see a post that 'we' are Pushing the detail teaching of Di zi gui. if so we will be saying 'Hey u newbies , u all MUST "æœ�èµ·æ—©ï¼Œå¤œçœ é�² In the morning rise early; at night go to sleep late!"as
For reasons of health, I think this verse should be changed to: "In the morning rise early; at night go immediately to sleep."
http://www.tsoidug.org/dizigui_trans_comp.php#Note7E
Twisitng and turning again... Pushing di zi gui to newbie, thats not pushing the detail teaching of di zi gui to them? Recommend newbie to go read and study di zi gui, but dun recommend the teachings in it?? Huh?
Originally posted by sinweiy:hehe, u tell me, u are the one that wrote "no choice".
no choice as in if people really not into buddhism, and they dun have any faith or teachings to guide them. then bor bian, introduce them some good book.
But why supporters of MJK insist in passing di zi gui to people who shown interest in Buddhism? Why?? Can please explain?
Originally posted by realization:Why, oh why?
When I first got in contact with MCK teachings, I found them a tad too pious and smacking somewhat of Chinese chauvinism. I knew I wasn't totally comfortable with such a stance, but I still did come away learning an important attitude towards spiritual cultivation; which is to be single-minded and to persevere in practice.
Like what another forummer said at the beginning of one such related thread, I choose to take what's useful for me and leave what I'm not totally comfortable with.
Having said that, I now realise that what I'm probably most uncomfortable with about MCK's teachings is not so much what standards he uses to judge morality, but his views on sickness and seeking medical help. I have personally gone and read some of his talks where he mentions his views with regards to contracting diseases, and his attitude towards consulting doctors and taking medicine. His implication that staunch Buddhists who are practising well will not get sick and if sick, can get well simply by faith, is a form magical thinking. I found it irresponsible and reckless.
Sorry. I know adherents of MCK's teachings will be upset, but I realise I must speak up because this question mark has been on my mind.
While I do wish Zenist were less militant and adamant in his arguments and will stop going on and on, I really do feel like he was also pushed into a corner right from the start. This made him need to defend more and more.
i agree with u, u talk sense. i too choose to take what's useful for me and leave what I'm not totally comfortable with. think newbies can learn this.
regarding the health part from MCK, he recently also think that his past view is too fixated. last time he seldom eat heaty food, like ginseng which people give, he throw/give away, and only eat vegetables/colder fruit, but after his doctor said that his body is too cold, and he's weaker and less energy, he change his own view and start eating food that are heatier, like ginseng, ginger and nuts.
/\
Originally posted by sinweiy:
i agree with u, u talk sense. i too choose to take what's useful for me and leave what I'm not totally comfortable with. think newbies can learn this.regarding the health part from MCK, he recently also think that his past view is too fixated. last time he seldom eat heaty food, like ginseng which people give, he throw/give away, and only eat vegetables/colder fruit, but after his doctor said that his body is too cold, and he's weaker and less energy, he change his own view and start eating food that are heatier, like ginseng, ginger and nuts.
/\
So is the MJK sect willing to let go of the habit of handing out di zi gui to newbie, people who show interest in Buddhism? Do they realize they are being too fixated in pushing Di Zi Gui, tai shang gan yin pian, etc to the newbies?
for me personally, it's not so much the actual deed of introducing Di Zi Gui that is the issue here.
it's the cognitive dissonance arising from views that is worth exploring.
from this, perhaps we can look carefully on how dualistic views are binding in nature.
out of point, but relevant to the context. :D
Originally posted by Zenist69:Twisitng and turning again... Pushing di zi gui to newbie, thats not pushing the detail teaching of di zi gui to them? Recommend newbie to go read and study di zi gui, but dun recommend the teachings in it?? Huh?
think u are the first to post the thread. but later u changed it. i however never posted any pushing texts on DZG. MCK advocatED, but i think he didn't go through them thoroughly. so one can
see the link esp on the note part on some changes according to modern lifestyle.
http://www.tsoidug.org/dizigui_trans_comp.php#Note7E
like Mahayana changes. we also have to change those that does not suit our modern lifestyle. but overall, it's still a very good book 善书.
to newbies, u can learn, but choose to take what's useful for u and leave those that are not totally comfortable with.
note: i also never go through them thoroughly.
Originally posted by Zenist69:So is the MJK sect willing to let go of the habit of handing out di zi gui to newbie, people who show interest in Buddhism? Do they realize they are being too fixated in pushing Di Zi Gui, tai shang gan yin pian, etc to the newbies?
can, as i wrote on the changes to suit modern needs. u also step back on ur militant /adamant comment on MCK. u don't MJK sect here, MJK sect there, pretty ignoring.
Originally posted by sinweiy:
think u are the first to post the thread. but later u changed it. i however never posted any pushing texts on DZG. MCK advocatED, but i think he didn't go through them thoroughly. so one cansee the link esp on the note part on some changes according to modern lifestyle.
http://www.tsoidug.org/dizigui_trans_comp.php#Note7E
like Mahayana changes. we also have to change those that does not suit our modern lifestyle. but overall, it's still a very good book 善书.
to newbies, u can learn, but choose to take what's useful for u and leave those that are not totally comfortable with.
note: i also never go through them thoroughly.
I post the torrent link to di zi gui speech by dr chua, 'cause I am ignorant. I trusted the MJK sect. But when I go think deeper, I just find its not right to push di zi gui to newbie. And I didn't push di zi gui to newbie, as ENTRY AND FOUNDATION TO BUDDHISM. U could go dig out that thread. I never say DI ZI GUI IS ENTRY AND FOUNDATION TO BUDDHISM.
So MJK doesn't push for di zi gui thoroughly?? But I know of at least two seperate occassion, MJK supporters push di zi gui to newbie. Are u saying those are unusual, just some kind of fluke, 'cause MJK supporters dun usually do that??
Why u keep telling me di zi gui is a good book? I dun deny di zi gui is a good book! I had said it so many times already. But the problem is not with di zi gui, but MJK supporters pushing di zi gui to newbies!
If u dun go thru it thorougly, shows u are really not into that book, so why keep on defending the MJK supporters act of pushing di zi gui to newbies? Serve wat purpose? just a blind sense of loyalty to defend MJK camp regardless?
To Zenist:
You know, MCK is not the only Buddhist teacher who sees non-Buddhist texts as exemplary and worthy of learning. Master Hsing Yun to my memory ever mentioned one of Dr. Sun Yat-sen's treatises in his Dharma talks and said that adhering to this particular treatise will help bring about good governance (at political/country level).
I'm pretty sure that there are Buddhist texts which also teach good governance, but Master Hsing Yun still chose to give mention to Sun Yat-sen's text. Can we then come to the conclusion that Hsing Yun is not a good teacher because of this? I'm sure that as my learning increases (albeit at snail's pace) I will find out that there are other Dharma teachers who also use non-Buddhist examples to teach.
Actually, after such a protracted discussion (started since Dec/Jan if I'm not wrong), we all already know and understand what you think. You have been heard. You cannot ask others to come round to your point of view, just as you won't concede with theirs. To each his own. What's important is that we ultimately arrive at the same destination.
Even if as you so believe, that some people have to take a more 绕 （round-about) way to get there if they were to follow MCK's teachings, you have to let "nature" or should I say karma take its course. You want to warn others of possible pitfalls, but each one has their own path to take. We can understand your concerns and your 苦�婆心.