Originally posted by Zenist69:I post the torrent link to di zi gui speech by dr chua, 'cause I am ignorant. I trusted the MJK sect. But when I go think deeper, I just find its not right to push di zi gui to newbie. And I didn't push di zi gui to newbie, as ENTRY AND FOUNDATION TO BUDDHISM. U could go dig out that thread. I never say DI ZI GUI IS ENTRY AND FOUNDATION TO BUDDHISM.
So MJK doesn't push for di zi gui thoroughly?? But I know of at least two seperate occassion, MJK supporters push di zi gui to newbie. Are u saying those are unusual, just some kind of fluke, 'cause MJK supporters dun usually do that??
Why u keep telling me di zi gui is a good book? I dun deny di zi gui is a good book! I had said it so many times already. But the problem is not with di zi gui, but MJK supporters pushing di zi gui to newbies!
okay i accepted u that it's not the problem of di zi gui. non did MJK supporters pushing di zi gui to newbies. what we push is the idea of morality, if u read back.
Originally posted by sinweiy:
can, as i wrote on the changes to suit modern needs. u also step back on ur militant /adamant comment on MCK. u don't MJK sect here, MJK sect there, pretty ignoring.
I try to this, just speak my mind, straight from the gut and heart. Its not easy to go by this. I fail many times. If go straight talk is consider militant and adamant, then I am sorry, i cant change it. Its a golden rule of thumb to avoid miscommunication for me. The one that need to change is your twisting and turning, not willing to talk straight.
If I dun address MJK problem as MJK, then what should i use?? XXX dharma master ? like that? XXX sect?? Please. If its him, its him.
Originally posted by Zenist69:I try to this, just speak my mind, straight from the gut and heart. Its not easy to go by this. I fail many times. If go straight talk is consider militant and adamant, then I am sorry, i cant change it. Its a golden rule of thumb to avoid miscommunication for me. The one that need to change is your twisting and turning, not willing to talk straight.
If I dun address MJK problem as MJK, then what should i use?? XXX dharma master ? like that? XXX sect?? Please. If its him, its him.
no, it's conditions. study more Buddhism, esp emptiness. MJK is taught be Li Binan who's taught by 13th PL Patriarch Yin Guang and so on without begining.
Buddha said He never taught a word of Buddhadharma, as previously, a previous Buddha also taught before, and before that, another previous Buddha also taught it and so on without begining. 缘起性空.
Study emptiness please. it's not a twisting words. :)
Originally posted by realization:To Zenist:
You know, MCK is not the only Buddhist teacher who sees non-Buddhist texts as exemplary and worthy of learning. Master Hsing Yun to my memory ever mentioned one of Dr. Sun Yat-sen's treatises in his Dharma talks and said that adhering to this particular treatise will help bring about good governance (at political/country level).
I'm pretty sure that there are Buddhist texts which also teach good governance, but Master Hsing Yun still chose to give mention to Sun Yat-sen's text. Can we then come to the conclusion that Hsing Yun is not a good teacher because of this? I'm sure that as my learning increases (albeit at snail's pace) I will find out that there are other Dharma teachers who also use non-Buddhist examples to teach.
Actually, after such a protracted discussion (started since Dec/Jan if I'm not wrong), we all already know and understand what you think. You have been heard. You cannot ask others to come round to your point of view, just as you won't concede with theirs. To each his own. What's important is that we ultimately arrive at the same destination.
Even if as you so believe, that some people have to take a more 绕 （round-about) way to get there if they were to follow MCK's teachings, you have to let "nature" or should I say karma take its course. You want to warn others of possible pitfalls, but each one has their own path to take. We can understand your concerns and your 苦�婆心.
There's a difference. I am sure Hsin Yun never ever push di zi gui to newbie. A buddhist or dharma master could say, hey, xyz daoist book, abc confucist book, xyz chinese leader book, etc, is really a good book. I have no issue with that. But the isssue i have with MJK sect, is they push di zi gui to people who first show some interest in Buddhism. Thats just plain misleading, 'cause di zi gui is not buddhist book. There's an element of deception in the act.
I could accept the fact, many local Buddhists insist in handing out di zi gui to people who first show some interest in Buddhism. But the problem i have is people dun talk straight here in this forum. I bring up this issue, and all kind of excuses excuses excuses people here in this forum come spewing here. Come up with all kind of twist and turn, even lock up thread to prevent further debate on the issue. I mean, lets talk sense. Buddhist precept talk about right speech. Not deceptive speech. Thats why I keep on talking about it trying to debunk those people false speech on this issue. Thats why this issue until now still haven't settle. Just look at sinweiy reply and others. They are not backing down. Only until just now, there's a glimpse of light breaking out, sinweiy admit that MJK do make mistakes in his view. But if he/ she dun be so stubborn and play it straight from start, this issue would end within a few days after I brought it up.
Hope u understand....
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
no, it's conditions. study more Buddhism, esp emptiness. MJK is taught be Li Binan who's taught by 13th PL Patriarch Yin Guang and so on without begining.Buddha said He never taught a word of Buddhadharma, as previously, a previous Buddha also taught before, and before that, another previous Buddha also taught it and so on without begining.
Study emptiness please. it's not a twisting words. :)
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Originally posted by Hun7qing77:æ…§å¾‹æ³•å¸ˆæ— æ—¶æ— åˆ»ä¸�在æ��醒佛弟å�å�Šä¼—生,åˆ‡èŽ«é€ å�£ä¸š,æ¯�谤修行僧人,å…¶å› æžœå°†å� æ— é—´åœ°ç‹±ã€‚è‹¥é€ å�£ä¸šï¼Œä¸€ä¼ å��，å��ä¼ ä½°ï¼Œä½°ä¼ å�ƒï¼ŒæžœæŠ¥å‰©äºŽå�ƒå€�，更何况现今科技å�‘达，弹指间任何讯æ�¯èƒ½ä¼ é��世界å�„地，其å�Žæžœå�¯æƒ³è€ŒçŸ¥ã€‚
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Okay, I am sorry that I posted threads and messages from other sites criticizing mjk. The reason I did that, is to show that MJK has got some credibility issue. But since those messages are enormous, and need more time to verify, so, its pretty reckless to posted them here. I am not an academic, and I dun have time to verify and sift thru all those criticisms from other site on MJK. For that I sincerely apologize for my reckless behavior.
That said, I dun think my criticism on MJK on this di zi gui issue is wrong. And I dun think its creating bad karma for me. In fact, i think i did right to bring out this particular issue of MJK, this di zi gui issue.
My take is pretty straightforward. To newbie who show interest in Buddhism, lets just dun waste time, introduce them buddhism books right away. To introduce newbie di zi gui, thats misleading. Its telling them di zi gui is buddhism book. But it is not.
Originally posted by Zenist69:There's a difference. I am sure Hsin Yun never ever push di zi gui to newbie. One could say, hey, xyz daoist book, abc confucist book, xyz chinese leader book, etc, is really a good book. I have no issue with that. But the isssue i have with MJK sect, is they push di zi gui to people who first show some interest in Buddhism. Thats just plain misleading, 'cause di zi gui is not buddhist books. There's an element of deception in the act.
I could accept the fact, many local Buddhists insist in handing out di zi gui to people who first show some interest in Buddhism. But the problem i have is people dun talk straight here in this forum. I bring up this issue, and all kind of excuses excuses excuses people here in this forum come spewing here. Come up with all kind of twist and turn, even lock up thread to prevent further debate on the issue. I mean, lets talk sense. Buddhist precept talk about right speech. Not deceptive speech. Thats why I keep on talking about it trying to debunk those people false speech on this issue. Thats why this issue until now still haven't settle. Just look at sinweiy reply and others. They are not backing down. Only until just now, there's a glimpse of light breaking out, sinweiy admit that MJK do make mistakes in his view. But if he/ she dun be so stubborn and play it straight, this issue would end within a few days after I brought it up.
Hope u understand....
like a mirror, we see, u are the one being stubborn and pushing and keep saying the same stanza over and over and over again, hence also one reason why i lock up the threads. i stopped as i see that u are less pushing and more polite.
we still 'push' morality as the basic of Buddhism.
Originally posted by sinweiy:like a mirror, we see, u are the one being stubborn and pushing and keep saying the same stanza over and over and over again, hence also one reason why i lock up the threads. i stopped as i see that u are less pushing and more polite.
we still 'push' morality as the basic of Buddhism.
I keep pushing on because of your twist and turn! Just look at those recent messages u post. Come on u keep defend this act of pushing di zi gui and then u say u are not really into it and all that. MJK recommend di zi gui for newbie but not follow through thorougly? Its excuses after excuses, twisitng and turning and dancing and not playing it straight.
Now, u change and say, u guys are pushing for morality. Well, if u guys are pushing for morality, for start, dun push di zi gui to the newbies. Its deceptive and misleading. 'cause Di Zi Gui is not buddhism book.
Originally posted by Zenist69:在ç�†ä½“上，万法皆空。在事相上，还是有是é�žå¯¹é”™ã€‚ä¸�èƒ½å› æœ¬ä½“ä¸‡æ³•æœ¬ç©ºè€Œå°±åœ¨äº‹ç›¸ä¸Šå�¯ä»¥é¢ 倒是é�žå¯¹é”™ã€‚
i am also talking 事相. a person do wrong/good because of the conditions like education or non education; bringing-up; surrounding etc that's fed into them, not that the person come up with the wrongness/goodness without conditions by itself. if u want to blame, blame the conditions.
Originally posted by Zenist69:I keep pushing on because of your twist and turn! Just look at those recent messages u post. Come on u keep defend this act of pushing di zi gui and then u say u are not really into it and all that. MJK recommend di zi gui for newbie but not follow through thorougly? Its excuses after excuses, twisitng and turning and dancing and not playing it straight.
Now, u change and say, u guys are pushing for morality. Well, if u guys are pushing for morality, for start, dun push for di zi gui as entry and foundation to buddhism. Its deceptive. 'cause Di Zi Gui is not buddhism book.
then the causation is the one who first show themselve on the mirror. hence the reflection of oneself.
i did said it's from Li Yuxiu, not From buddhism book. u twist word too.
Originally posted by Zenist69:Okay, I am sorry that I posted threads and messages from other sites criticizing mjk. The reason I did that, is to show that MJK has got some credibility issue. But since those messages are enormous, and need more time to verify, so, its pretty reckless to posted them here. I am not an academic, and I dun have time to verify and sift thru all those criticisms from other site on MJK. For that I sincerely apologize for my reckless behavior.
accepted. but u keep pushing again. why?
Originally posted by sinweiy:then the causation is the one who first show themselve on the mirror. hence the reflection of oneself.
i did said it's from Li Yuxiu, not From buddhism book. u twist word too.
This act of pushing di zi gui to the newbies, is deceptive and misleading, 'cause di zi gui is not a buddhism book. So when did I say u, in particular, say di zi gui is buddhism book? When?? When did I twist your words???
Why u keep telling me the author of di zi gui? Whats that gotta do with anything? I didn't say buddha wrote it did I?
Originally posted by sinweiy:
accepted. but u keep pushing again. why?
When did I post those comments again? I didn't post those comments again.
Originally posted by sinweiy:
i am also talking 事相. a person do wrong/good because of the conditions like education or non education; bringing-up; surrounding etc that's fed into them, not that the person come up with the wrongness/goodness without conditions by itself. if u want to blame, blame the conditions.
Are u saying u are not responsible for your act of defending MJK pushing for di zi gui to newbie? Its just the conditions have to take the blame for it??
So when did I say u, in particular, say di zi gui is buddhism book? When??
i misread "Its deceptive. 'cause Di Zi Gui is not buddhism book."
if not then it is.
Originally posted by Zenist69:When did I post those comments again? I didn't post those comments again.
as of now u starting to write ignoringly. if both less words, we can better end this nonsense.
Originally posted by sinweiy:
as of now u starting to write ignoringly. if both less words, we can better end this nonsense.
U wanna end this, sure. Stop your twisting and turning. It is wrong to push di zi gui to newbies, admit it, and stop defending it.
Originally posted by Zenist69:Are u saying u are not responsible for your act of defending MJK pushing for di zi gui to newbie? Its just the conditions have to take the blame for it??
huh? better don't push it and keep saying the same stanza again and again.
MJK pushing for morality to newbie.
Originally posted by Zenist69:
U wanna end this, sure. Stop your twisting and turning. It is wrong to push di zi gui to newbies, admit it, stop defending i.
nay stop ur stubbornness, is better of stopping it.
Originally posted by Weychin:Di zi gui is a good classic, despite it is not a Buddhist scripture contains conduct and morality which is compatible with Buddhists learning. Good conduct is universally good conduct. I do not believe any of the Ven. Jing Kung students are under any illusion the Di zi gui is a Buddhist classic. To begin to be good Buddhist, one can start with being a good person, it is just one of the skilful methods, if it is not suitable for you, move on !!! You are still clinging too much! Choose a method of cultivation that suit you most, and allow others practise what suit them more !
Yi he wei gui !
Nobody say di zi gui is not a good book. And its not a matter whether di zi gui suits me or not. Its when lots of people from MJK camp, pushing di zi gui to newbie, this act whether its legit or not from buddhism point of view. If its not right, then stop doing it! Simple as that. Stop defending it and find excuse for it!
Originally posted by sinweiy:huh? better don't push it and keep saying the same stanza again and again.
MJK pushing for morality to newbie.
He's pushing di zi gui and tai shang gan yin pian to newbies! Thats what he did. You wanna argue and said that act is pushing for morality? Okay, but he's pushing for di zi gui and tang shang gan yin pian to newbies! U cant deny the fact that he keep on pushing those two books for newbies to read! So stop your nonsense of keep on finding excuse for MJK!
Originally posted by sinweiy:
nay stop ur stubbornness, is better of stopping it.
No, u people from MJK camp should stop the nonsense of pushing di zi gui to newbies. Di Zi Gui is not buddhism book. Stop the nonsense of pushing a wai dao books to newbies. U wanna talk about skillful means? Then look at the person whether he/ she into buddhism or not. If they are interested, procceed to recommend buddhism books to them. NOT pushing for di zi gui to newbies regardless! THATS NOT SKILLFUL MEANS!
Originally posted by Zenist69:Nobody say di zi gui is not a good book. And its not a matter whether di zi gui suits me or not. Its when lots of people from MJK camp, pushing di zi gui to newbie, this act whether its legit or not from buddhism point of view. If its not right, then stop doing it. Simple as that. Stop defending it and find excuse for it!
to say it's good book and then say it's not suitable, is as good as saying it's not a good book. this is also "twisting and turning" from the mirror of the mind.