Decline Of Buddhism In Singapore
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Chinese education system doesn't necessarily promote religion.
Buddhism does not require very high standards of Chinese to teach or learn - if it did, then perhaps it is time to change. (personally, I never thought very high standards of Chinese is necessary, especially in my particular tradition where very basic Chinese knowledge is required - no chim words, etc)
For the better - because if high standards of Chinese is required to spread its teachings, then the teachings become limited to only a group of people.
Perhaps, more effort must be put on spreading the teachings in English which is already happening nowadays.
For now, Theravada and Vajrayana is being taught in English... the Mahayana should put more effort in teaching bilingual.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Chinese education system doesn't necessarily promote religion.
Once the education system is not one of local culture and is of an alien type the person produced under such a system, his culture and morale will be weakened, having trained under an alien system for years and not one of his own native culture. This is made worse by the fact that the system like ours from a young age is already of an alien type. The first 5 years of a person's life is the critical period in absorbing cultural traits, but ours is a bastardised system.
This is the reason why the culture has weakened, the morale is of a much weaker type and the language is a bastardised singlish.
This is why minority groups from all other countries will fight to the death for their educational and linguistics rights.
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Tang Liang Hong?! The bugger should have really been put in ISA for all the stupid remarks he made before a GE long ago!
Tang should save his remarks for the Malaysian and Indonesian governments who have discriminated even more on Chinese education (after the 1960s it was even illegal to read Chinese in Indon right until the 2000s), as well as many Chinese around the world who DON'T EVEN SPEAK OR UNDERSTAND a word of Chinese. My parents also don't speak Chinese, they were English-educated before Independence. How?
I speak Chinese, i read Chinese, i write in Traditional Chinese characters (fan ti zi, can you or even Tang do so? If not, i rest my case!). My friends in Japan all admire the fact that Singaporeans can speak at least 2 languages, my Taiwanese friends admire us that we speak good English and Chinese to communicate with them.
And don't forget, we were a British Colony before Independence, so how can it be "alien"? Blame the British then. There are people cursing WHY we need to take Mother Tongue and have our kids struggle at it, and then some like Tang saying, why did we abolish vernacular schools? Don't forget, English has been a big factor WHY this country has been able to progress faster than any of our neighbours, because it's still the language used in the business world.
å�‡å¦‚ä½ è¦ºå¾—è¡Œå‹•é»¨åœ¨é™¤æ»…æœ¬åœ°æ–‡åŒ–ï¼Œé‚£ä½ ä¹¾è„†ä¸�è¦�用英文，用ä¸æ–‡è¡¨é�”å¥½äº†ï¼Œä¾†é¡¯ç¤ºä½ çš„"文化水準"å•Šï¼�å‰�幾天在公車上還è�½åˆ°å¤–國é�Šå®¢èªªæ–°åŠ å�¡æ”¿åºœé‚„å°�文化ä¿�å˜å�šçš„é�žå¸¸å¥½ï¼Œä¸�åƒ�他自己國家，早就把很多文化æ�±è¥¿é™¤æ»…掉了ï¼�
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Originally posted by sanath:
Tang Liang Hong?! The bugger should have really been put in ISA for all the stupid remarks he made before a GE long ago!
Tang should save his remarks for the Malaysian and Indonesian governments who have discriminated even more on Chinese education (after the 1960s it was even illegal to read Chinese in Indon right until the 2000s), as well as many Chinese around the world who DON'T EVEN SPEAK OR UNDERSTAND a word of Chinese. My parents also don't speak Chinese, they were English-educated before Independence. How?
I speak Chinese, i read Chinese, i write in Traditional Chinese characters (fan ti zi, can you or even Tang do so? If not, i rest my case!). My friends in Japan all admire the fact that Singaporeans can speak at least 2 languages, my Taiwanese friends admire us that we speak good English and Chinese to communicate with them.
And don't forget, we were a British Colony before Independence, so how can it be "alien"? Blame the British then. There are people cursing WHY we need to take Mother Tongue and have our kids struggle at it, and then some like Tang saying, why did we abolish vernacular schools? Don't forget, English has been a big factor WHY this country has been able to progress faster than any of our neighbours, because it's still the language used in the business world.
å�‡å¦‚ä½ è¦ºå¾—è¡Œå‹•é»¨åœ¨é™¤æ»…æœ¬åœ°æ–‡åŒ–ï¼Œé‚£ä½ ä¹¾è„†ä¸�è¦�用英文，用ä¸æ–‡è¡¨é�”å¥½äº†ï¼Œä¾†é¡¯ç¤ºä½ çš„"文化水準"å•Šï¼�å‰�幾天在公車上還è�½åˆ°å¤–國é�Šå®¢èªªæ–°åŠ å�¡æ”¿åºœé‚„å°�文化ä¿�å˜å�šçš„é�žå¸¸å¥½ï¼Œä¸�åƒ�他自己國家，早就把很多文化æ�±è¥¿é™¤æ»…掉了ï¼�
Seems to be hopeless with you. May you see the truth. You seem to be completely blinded by PAP propaganda.
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One does not need to have a religion to live a happy and meaningful life.
One does not need to have a religion to develop love and respect for all living things.
One does not need to have a religion to regain consiousness and see through the illusions of life.
Only direct experience brings wisdom and enlightenment. -
There are so many "local cultures", so if by your argument, whose "culture" do we use in education? Malay? Chinese? Indian? Eurasian? Should we have continued following our neighbour up-north where they have continue having vernacular schools, but the people divided and ruled apart, even to the point where those of a different race and religion are discriminated and still called "pendantang" or "immigrants" even though they've been here for generations?
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I agree one thing with AEN, Mahayana Buddhism or rather, Chinese Mahayana Buddhism still continues to be largely mono-lingual. Even Christian churches are starting to use Chinese and even dialects to preach, even though English is still the main language of missionary work for them. We Buddhists ourselves just don't bother and then want to blame the government for the loss of numbers, which doesn't even make sense.
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Originally posted by Vote PAP OUT to Save SG:
Seems to be hopeless with you. May you see the truth. You seem to be completely blinded by PAP propaganda.
The same to you, you've been blinded by opposition propanganda.
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I dun noe why is it so difficult for some of you guys to see the relation between the decline of Buddhism and PAP. Almost everything here in this country has to do with the PAP directly and or indirectly. Let me show u a quote from Lee Kuan Yew. Thats how his way of running this country:
"I am often accused of interfering in the private lives of citizens. Yes, if I did not, had I not done that, we wouldn't be here today. And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters - who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think." - Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Straits Times, 20 April 1987
So why are u guys still defending the PAP? C'mon. Seriously. U want to do something about the decline of Buddhism here in Spore, first of all thing, u gotta face up the root cause of the problem! U could beat around the bush whole lifetime, I gurantee you, Buddhism in Spore will keep on declining if we dun do something about the decline of Asian culture, religions, heritage, values, language here in this country! Dun tell me Asian culture is flourishing 'cause of some Daoist temple somewhere here in this country very crowded during eve of CNY. Go talk to the kids and see how they think about Asian language and values. They will say 'Duh? Where got time.' Thats how this country is going. Dun tell me XYZ Asian countries also like that leh. XYZ Asian countries go eat shit should we also follow??
I also dun like to talk about politics, and the worldly stuff such as education policy, or language we use. But its a fact of life, those earthly policies by a all powerful government, those stuff affect our lives. We cannot deny the fact that politics do affect the growth or decline of religion. Look at chinese history. Buddhism ganna jia lat jia lat at some point of ancient chinese history, and also during modern china during cultural revolution. Politics affect the development of religion. Stop this irrationality denial mode.
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Originally posted by sanath:
We Buddhists ourselves just don't bother and then want to blame the government for the loss of numbers, which doesn't even make sense.
You can't deny truth.
Decline of local culture, buddhism is due to anglisation policies of PAP.
It's simply the truth and is obvious to an outside observer.
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Originally posted by Zenist69:
I dun noe why is it so difficult for some of you guys to see the relation between the decline of Buddhism and PAP. Almost everything here in this country has to do with the PAP directly and or indirectly. Let me show u a quote from Lee Kuan Yew. Thats how his way of running this country:
"I am often accused of interfering in the private lives of citizens. Yes, if I did not, had I not done that, we wouldn't be here today. And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters - who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think." - Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Straits Times, 20 April 1987
So why are u guys still defending the PAP? C'mon. Seriously. U want to do something about the decline of Buddhism here in Spore, first of all thing, u gotta face up the root cause of the problem! U could beat around the bush whole lifetime, I gurantee you, Buddhism in Spore will keep on declining if we dun do something about the decline of Asian culture, heritage, values, language here in this country! Dun tell me Asian culture is flourishing 'cause of some Daoist temple somewhere here in this country. Go talk to the kids and see how they think about Asian language and values. They will say 'Duh? Where got time.' Thats how this country is going. Dun tell me XYZ Asian countries also like that leh. XYZ Asian countries go eat shit should we also follow??
I also dun like to talk about politics, and the worldly stuff such as education policy, or language we use. But its a fact of life, those earthly policies by a all powerful government, those stuff affect our lives. We cannot deny the fact that politics do affect the growth or decline of religion. Look at chinese history. Buddhism ganna jia lat jia lat at some point of ancient chinese history, and also during modern china during cultural revolution. Politics affect the development of religion. Stop this nonsensical denial mode.
You are more clear in your thinking and you can see clearly the role played by PAP in the destruction of local culture.
So in this sense, you have grasped the truth and the root of the problem which is PAP.
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I simply don't see why Buddhism needs to be tied up with Chinese culture and education.
Buddhism is not even of Chinese origin to begin with.
Also, it is taught primarily in English in the Theravada and Vajrayana tradition, though still dominantly taught in Chinese in the Mahayana tradition (but that said I do not think very high standards of Chinese is required to learn the teachings).
Our Chinese standard is still not bad - or good enough to learn Buddhism. English also comes in handy. I can say I read more Buddhist articles and books in English than I do in Chinese nowadays.
I think Buddhism needs to adapt to the changing trends.
China and Singapore are totally different - there is no religious persecution because our government is secular in terms of religion.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I think Buddhism needs to adapt to the changing trends.
I prefer destruction of PAP which is causing the negative trends.
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Look here, those in denial mode on the effect of this PAP gahmen on how things turn out for Buddhism here in our country, go read the below quote.
"I am often accused of interfering in the private lives of citizens. Yes, if I did not, had I not done that, we wouldn't be here today. And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters - who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think." - Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Straits Times, 20 April 1987
Who is our neighbour LKY also wanna interfere, do u think he will hands off in the religion matter? Do you seriously think that??? THINK!
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Originally posted by Zenist69:
Look here, those in denial mode on the affect of this PAP gahmen on how things turn out for Buddhism here in our country,
"I am often accused of interfering in the private lives of citizens. Yes, if I did not, had I not done that, we wouldn't be here today. And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters - who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think." - Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Straits Times, 20 April 1987
If who our neighbour he also wanna interfere, do u think he will hands off in the religion matter? Do you seriously think that??? THINK!
There is no denying the LKY wants to influence our lives.
I however do not believe he intends to change our religions, this is ridiculous.
Of course, I do believe they are controlling our education, etc - but that is a different matter, for a different purpose.
And controlling our education does not mean they will influence our religion. As I said - many dharma centers are teaching in English.
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Originally posted by Zenist69:
Look here, those in denial mode on the affect of this PAP gahmen on how things turn out for Buddhism here in our country,
"I am often accused of interfering in the private lives of citizens. Yes, if I did not, had I not done that, we wouldn't be here today. And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters - who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think." - Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Straits Times, 20 April 1987
If who our neighbour he also wanna interfere, do u think he will hands off in the religion matter? Do you seriously think that??? THINK!
This perverse and sick mentality and control freak totalitarian nature of Harry Lee Kuan Yew.
This sickness is caused by his insecurity of being a peranakan but yet have to pose as a fake chinese in order for him an anglo dog to rule over an island with 75% chinese and the constant fear of being exposed as someone who worked for the Japanese during WWII.
He is always wary of the dialect chinese in Singapore and so he surrounds himself with people from other minority groups. The important positions in cabinets are almost always given to people from minority groups.
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Originally posted by Vote PAP OUT to Save SG:
I prefer destruction of PAP which is causing the negative trends.
The trends, like de-emphasis in Chinese, and so on, may be perceived as negative (subject to personal opinion) - nevertheless I do not believe they have a big impact on religion as a whole.
Religion is about what you believe and practice, it is not about what language you speak. And all Singaporeans speak bilingually anyway, this hasn't changed.
Buddhism is not a religion tied to culture (Taoism may in a sense be - but philosophical Taoism is also well received in western countries). Buddhism however is independent of culture, and also mingles with any cultures very well, that is why it is all over the world, adopting and absorbing various cultures. For example, Buddhism is actually of Indian origin - but you do not see Indian Buddhism in Singapore.
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By the way, the number of true Buddhists are still rising - there just isn't a drop in Buddhists participating at dharma centers (just look around, you see the numbers keep rising everywhere). But the number of non-Buddhists posing as Buddhist (aka 'IC Buddhist' who haven't even taken refuge which is like the majority) is dropping, creating an impression of a 'decline of Buddhism in Singapore' which isn't really actually happening.
But this trend also shows that Buddhism isn't doing enough to promote the true teachings, otherwise the drop can't be so drastic.
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Final Message to the Singaporean Youths
In a rare public interview in 1997 Radio Corporation of Singapore, Dr Toh passionately bemoaned the lack of idealism and creativity among the young and its implications for the future of Singapore. He said:“I would say the generation of the ‘50s and ‘60s took the plunge into politics without ever calculating the costs of the risk and the benefits to be gained. They were driven by ideology.
Today’s generation has no culture and averse to taking political risk.
Really, an interest in politics is very necessary for the future.
But I cannot blame the present generations, because they see the heavy-handed response by the government to dissenting views, even though they know that these matters involve their daily lives.
So the result is that we have produced a younger generation who are meek and therefore very calculating.They are less independent-thinking and lack in initiative.
It does not bode well for the emergence of future leaders in politics and business. Robots and computers can be programmed or if you like, can be trained.
But the trouble, of course, is that computers lack soul and what we need in Singapore is soul. Because it is soul that makes society.”
His words are aptly prophetic to our present society. Are we a soulless society? Maybe we are, but it is heartening to see great men like Dr Toh Chin Chye made passionate dreams for Singapore.This cancer of Singapore society that is Harry Lee Kuan Yew.Don't get rid of Lee Kuan Yew, Singapore society will never develop and progress. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I simply don't see why Buddhism needs to be tied up with Chinese culture and education.
Buddhism is not even of Chinese origin to begin with.
Also, it is taught primarily in English in the Theravada and Vajrayana tradition, though still dominantly taught in Chinese in the Mahayana tradition (but that said I do not think very high standards of Chinese is required to learn the teachings).
Our Chinese standard is still not bad - or good enough to learn Buddhism. English also comes in handy. I can say I read more Buddhist articles and books in English than I do in Chinese nowadays.
I think Buddhism needs to adapt to the changing trends.
China and Singapore are totally different - there is no religious persecution because our government is secular in terms of religion.
在ç�†ä½“上，佛教是ä¸�分è¯è¨€ï¼Œä¸œæ–¹è¥¿æ–¹çš„。但是在事相上，佛教是æº�自亚洲。
ä½›æ•™åœ¨æ–°åŠ å�¡çš„è¡°é€€æ— å®ƒï¼Œç�†ç”±å°±æ˜¯æˆ‘们过于洋化。而佛教一个æº�自亚洲的宗教在一个过于洋化的亚洲社会，它é€�æ¸�è¡°é€€æ˜¯å¿…ç„¶çš„ã€‚å› ä¸ºå®ƒä¸�是æ�¥è‡ªè¥¿æ–¹ï¼Œå®ƒæ˜¯æ�¥è‡ªäºŽä¸œæ–¹ï¼Œäºšæ´²ã€‚在æŸ�äº›ä»¥ä¸ºè‡ªå·±æ˜¯æ´‹äººçš„æ–°åŠ å�¡äººçœ¼é‡Œï¼Œé‚£æ˜¯ä¸�å…¥æµ�，是ä¸�科å¦çš„，是è�½ä¼�的。是应该被“现代潮æµ�”所淘汰的。
And what is causing this over westernization here in Singapore? Who but the PAP/ LKY got the power to shape this country? So wanna tackle the decline of Buddhism, we gotta face the problem at its face.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
There is no denying the LKY wants to influence our lives.
I however do not believe he intends to change our religions, this is ridiculous.
Of course, I do believe they are controlling our education, etc - but that is a different matter, for a different purpose.
And controlling our education does not mean they will influence our religion. As I said - many dharma centers are teaching in English.
Come on. Buddhism also touches on filial piety, and 感� (grateful). So is it grateful for Singapore this country, majority of which are Chinese, to turn its back against Chinese language? Is this being grateful? Chinese language standard is slowly but surely declining! Its a sign we are marginalize our own asian language. Thats not being nice, good. To turn our back against our language, for the chinese here.
LKY attitude, his bias against Asian culture and language, translate into language policies and education policies. And thus, we are getting more and more westernize. And when we are getting more and more westernize, what do we do? We slowly ditch away asian values, culture, and even religions. Thats why Buddhism on the decline bro.
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I really cannot understand why the subject "Decline of Buddhism in Singapore" keeps popping up. I wonder how they derive the conclusion that there is a decline of Buddhism in Singapore. Do you guys share the same view ? Compare with 10 or 20 years ago, I find there are more and more Buddhists wherever I go.
I suspect there is a motive of saying there is a decline of Buddhism in Singapore but I can't tell what is behind the motive.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
I really cannot understand why the subject "Decline of Buddhism in Singapore" keeps popping up. I wonder how they derive the conclusion that there is a decline of Buddhism in Singapore. Do you guys share the same view ? Compare with 10 or 20 years ago, I find there are more and more Buddhists wherever I go.
I suspect there is a motive of saying there is a decline of Buddhism in Singapore but I can't tell what is behind the motive.
According to government statistics, there is a sharp decline. That is why I said:
By the way, the number of true Buddhists are still rising - there just isn't a drop in Buddhists participating at dharma centers (just look around, you see the numbers keep rising everywhere). But the number of non-Buddhists posing as Buddhist (aka 'IC Buddhist' who haven't even taken refuge which is like the majority) is dropping, creating an impression of a 'decline of Buddhism in Singapore' which isn't really actually happening.
But this trend also shows that Buddhism isn't doing enough to promote the true teachings, otherwise the drop can't be so drastic.
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Originally posted by Zenist69:
在ç�†ä½“上，佛教是ä¸�分è¯è¨€ï¼Œä¸œæ–¹è¥¿æ–¹çš„。但是在事相上，佛教是æº�自亚洲。
ä½›æ•™åœ¨æ–°åŠ å�¡çš„è¡°é€€æ— å®ƒï¼Œç�†ç”±å°±æ˜¯æˆ‘们过于洋化。而佛教一个æº�自亚洲的宗教在一个过于洋化的亚洲社会，它é€�æ¸�è¡°é€€æ˜¯å¿…ç„¶çš„ã€‚å› ä¸ºå®ƒä¸�是æ�¥è‡ªè¥¿æ–¹ï¼Œå®ƒæ˜¯æ�¥è‡ªäºŽä¸œæ–¹ï¼Œäºšæ´²ã€‚在æŸ�äº›ä»¥ä¸ºè‡ªå·±æ˜¯æ´‹äººçš„æ–°åŠ å�¡äººçœ¼é‡Œï¼Œé‚£æ˜¯ä¸�å…¥æµ�，是ä¸�科å¦çš„，是è�½ä¼�的。是应该被“现代潮æµ�”所淘汰的。
And what is causing this over westernization here in Singapore? Who but the PAP/ LKY got the power to shape this country? So wanna tackle the decline of Buddhism, we gotta face the problem at its face.
IMO the "在æŸ�äº›ä»¥ä¸ºè‡ªå·±æ˜¯æ´‹äººçš„æ–°åŠ å�¡äººçœ¼é‡Œï¼Œé‚£æ˜¯ä¸�å…¥æµ�，是ä¸�科å¦çš„，是è�½ä¼�的。" is not because of lack of Chinese culture education, it is because Buddhists are not doing enough to teach the teachings.
There is a common misperception that Buddhism is about praying to idols, ancestor worshipping etc, which are actually not Buddhism. This pervasive misconception alone shows how little Buddhism is known or understood in our country.
Then there are the churches which are modern, cool, looks like rock concerts, etc. Of course this attracts the young people more. Most dharma centers are not really doing that much to attract the youths are they? I think most cater to the middle aged group more. For my dharma center, we are trying to do something but time will tell whether it works out. But in terms of the attractiveness of mega churches, those churches are always ahead.
The Chinese communists also thought that religion including Buddhism is "那是ä¸�å…¥æµ�，是ä¸�科å¦çš„，是è�½ä¼�çš„" so it is not about whether we have Chinese education. Although that is changing. I think we can just as easily spread Buddhism to someone with Western education.
Whether we have Chinese education or not, the trends of religion here are inevitable unless we, as Buddhists do something about it - just like what is happening in South Korea even though they do not teach English.
No amount of emphasis in Chinese culture, education will help.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
IMO the "在æŸ�äº›ä»¥ä¸ºè‡ªå·±æ˜¯æ´‹äººçš„æ–°åŠ å�¡äººçœ¼é‡Œï¼Œé‚£æ˜¯ä¸�å…¥æµ�，是ä¸�科å¦çš„，是è�½ä¼�的。" is not because of lack of Chinese culture education, it is because Buddhists are not doing enough to teach the teachings.
There is a common misperception that Buddhism is about praying to idols, ancestor worshipping etc, which are actually not Buddhism. This pervasive misconception alone shows how little Buddhism is known or understood in our country.
Then there are the churches which are modern, cool, looks like rock concerts, etc. Of course this attracts the young people more. Most dharma centers are not really doing that much to attract the youths are they? I think most cater to the middle aged group more. For my dharma center, we are trying to do something but time will tell whether it works out. But in terms of the attractiveness of mega churches, those churches are always ahead.
The Chinese communists also thought that religion including Buddhism is "那是ä¸�å…¥æµ�，是ä¸�科å¦çš„，是è�½ä¼�çš„" so it is not about whether we have Chinese education. Although that is changing. I think we can just as easily spread Buddhism to someone with Western education.
Whether we have Chinese education or not, the trends of religion here are inevitable unless we, as Buddhists do something about it - just like what is happening in South Korea even though they do not teach English.
No amount of emphasis in Chinese culture, education will help.
If our gahmen did a good job in introducing Chinese culture, Chinese values into the education system, of course our students will be more susceptible in accepting Buddhism. If all we study is English literature, Westerners teachings and values, of course we are more susceptible to pick up Christianity. Its common sense.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
I really cannot understand why the subject "Decline of Buddhism in Singapore" keeps popping up. I wonder how they derive the conclusion that there is a decline of Buddhism in Singapore. Do you guys share the same view ? Compare with 10 or 20 years ago, I find there are more and more Buddhists wherever I go.
I suspect there is a motive of saying there is a decline of Buddhism in Singapore but I can't tell what is behind the motive.
直�直说，just say it lah. What is the motive of saying there is a decline of Buddhism in Spore?
