Originally posted by:Icchantika are more mentioned in Lotus Sutra and by Tientai School. they also mentioned on dragon girl attaining Awakening. dragon girl is an animal and a girl.
PL method mentioned more on deadly sins and spread across foolish class to advance class.
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and to add that "foolish" or "lowly" class do include animal and female form. our record do have such examples.
while for Icchantika, i think like Tientai school, it's a matter of a seed or affinity planted in their Alaya. in future to come, they will walk the Awakening path.
was it Buddha or MCK that said, we don't mind they blasphemed the Dharma, what we mind most are those who have no chance to even blasphemed the Dharma(i.e. meet up with Dharma).
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Yup... Master Shen Kai became a monk through blaspheming the dharma.
Originally posted by Aik TC:
Was going through briefly the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra on the subjects of the 'five deadly sins' and on the Icchantikas. Found there were actually quite a lot of inconsistencies on these two subjects in the Sutra, maybe because of the English translated. But it make for very interesting reading. Certainly looking forward to write something on it although sinweiy have a thread on the subject of ‘Icchantika’ way back in 2007.
Hi Aik,
wonder if this helps
Can The Extremely Evil Reach Pure Land?
Question: The Infinite Life (Sukhavativyuha) Sutra says that 'excluded [from possibility of birth in Pure Land] are those who created the five heinous misgivings, who slandered against the right Dharma' in the 18th Vow of Amituofo [as below], while the Contemplation (Amitayurdhyana) Sutra says 'those who attain birth [in Pure Land] as the lowest level of the lowest grade' can also be 'beings who created karma that is immoral [not good], [via] the five heinous misgivings'. How do we reconcile what seems to be a contradiction? Here are the sutra excerpts:
If, when I [Dharmakara Bodhisattva] attain Buddhahood [as Amituofo], beings of the ten directions with complete [wholehearted/single-minded] sincerity, firm faith and joyful devotion who desire to be born in my land, and are mindful [of my name 'Amituofo'] for even ten [thought] moments should not be born there, may I not attain perfect awakening. Excluded are those who created the five heinous misgivings, who slandered against the right Dharma.
- Infinite Life Sutra
The Buddha said to Ananda and [Queen] Vaidehi, 'Of those who attain birth [in Amituofo's Pure Land] as the lowest level of the lowest grade, or beings who created karma that is immoral [not good], [via] the five heinous misgivings and the ten evil acts [ten unwholesome deeds: of (1) killing (2) stealing (3) sexual misconduct (4) divisive speech (5) harsh speech (6) false speech (7) idle speech (8) greed (9) anger (10) wrong views], having all kinds of immorality, such fools should, due to evil karma, fall to the evil realms, and experience many kalpas [1 kalpa is about 1343, 840, 000 years] of boundless suffering.
If such a fool, when nearing the end of life [dying], meets a good-knowing adviser [spiritual friend], who encourages [consoles/comforts] one in various ways, telling one the wonderful Dharma, teaching and urging one to be mindful of [Amita(bha)] Buddha [Amituofo], [and] if such a person is pressed by suffering, with not enough time to be mindful of Buddha, the good friend tells one these words, "If you cannot be mindful of that Buddha, you should chant [call the name of; be mindful of] 'Amitayus [Immeasurable Life] Buddha [Wu Liang Shou Fo; Amituofo]'. With such sincerity of mind [and heart], let this voice be unceasing [continuous], completing ten moments of mindfulness, chanting 'Refuge in [Homage to] Amita Buddha [Namo Amituofo]'.
Due to chanting of the Buddha's name, within moment to moment mindfulness, the misgivings of life and death of eighty kotis [1 koti is about 100 million] of kalpas are extinguished [diluted by the merits created by oneself and as shared by Amituofo through connection with him]. Within the lotus flower, after 12 full great kalpas, when the lotus flower blossoms, Avalokiteshvara and Mahasthamaprapta [Bodhisattvas], with their voices of great compassion, extensively teach that person the suchness of all dharmas, which extinguishes one's [remaining] misgivings [upon realising them]. Having heard [learnt] these [teachings], one rejoices, and immediately aspires to the mind [and heart] of Bodhicitta [to guide one and all to awaken; to attain Buddhahood]. This is called one who is born of the lowest level of the lowest grade, [and] is called the contemplation of the lowest grade [with the highest and middle levels of the lowest grade together], called the sixteenth contemplation."
- Sutra of Contemplation of Amitayus Buddha
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In the Suttas, Mogallana recounted having spent a very very long time in the hells. Even King Ajatasattu is said to be able to become a paccekabuddha after finishing his 60000 years in hell, according to Digha commentary. So when Buddha said that doers of the five heinous deeds are "incurable" it doesn't mean "eternal". It just means incurable for that very very long length of time.
oh... thanks.
paiseh... since Ven. Mogallana has already spent a long time in hell, wouldn't his past negative karma be spent too...? Why Ven. Mogallanana still have to die like this...
Originally posted by 2009novice:
oh... thanks.paiseh... since Ven. Mogallana has already spent a long time in hell, wouldn't his past negative karma be spent too...? Why Ven. Mogallanana still have to die like this...
There are left over karma. It is not completely ended. That is why those who came out of lower realms often have short life or illness.
Originally posted by sinweiy:becoming vegetarian is one of the most important and effective actions you can take to ease the strain on our Earth's limited resources, protect the planet from pollution, prevent global warming, and save countless species from extinction.
According to Dr. David Brubaker, PhD, at Johns Hopkins University's Center for a Livable Future, "The way that we breed animals for food is a threat to the planet. It pollutes our environment while consuming huge amounts of water, grain, petroleum, pesticides and drugs. The results are disastrous."
http://www.chooseveg.com/environment.asp
Consider This
Amount of U.S. grain fed to farm animals: 70%
Pounds of corn and soy required to produce just one pound of pork: nearly 7
Water needed to produce a pound of wheat: 14 gallons
Water needed to produce a pound of meat: 441 gallons
Of all water used for all purposes in the United States, more than half goes to: livestock production
National Geographic and History Television
Aftermath: Population Overload
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOdYOh_qReY
Originally posted by 2009novice:
Hi Aik,wonder if this helps
Can The Extremely Evil Reach Pure Land?
Question: The Infinite Life (Sukhavativyuha) Sutra says that 'excluded [from possibility of birth in Pure Land] are those who created the five heinous misgivings, who slandered against the right Dharma' in the 18th Vow of Amituofo [as below], while the Contemplation (Amitayurdhyana) Sutra says 'those who attain birth [in Pure Land] as the lowest level of the lowest grade' can also be 'beings who created karma that is immoral [not good], [via] the five heinous misgivings'. How do we reconcile what seems to be a contradiction? Here are the sutra excerpts:
If, when I [Dharmakara Bodhisattva] attain Buddhahood [as Amituofo], beings of the ten directions with complete [wholehearted/single-minded] sincerity, firm faith and joyful devotion who desire to be born in my land, and are mindful [of my name 'Amituofo'] for even ten [thought] moments should not be born there, may I not attain perfect awakening. Excluded are those who created the five heinous misgivings, who slandered against the right Dharma.
- Infinite Life Sutra
The Buddha said to Ananda and [Queen] Vaidehi, 'Of those who attain birth [in Amituofo's Pure Land] as the lowest level of the lowest grade, or beings who created karma that is immoral [not good], [via] the five heinous misgivings and the ten evil acts [ten unwholesome deeds: of (1) killing (2) stealing (3) sexual misconduct (4) divisive speech (5) harsh speech (6) false speech (7) idle speech (8) greed (9) anger (10) wrong views], having all kinds of immorality, such fools should, due to evil karma, fall to the evil realms, and experience many kalpas [1 kalpa is about 1343, 840, 000 years] of boundless suffering.
If such a fool, when nearing the end of life [dying], meets a good-knowing adviser [spiritual friend], who encourages [consoles/comforts] one in various ways, telling one the wonderful Dharma, teaching and urging one to be mindful of [Amita(bha)] Buddha [Amituofo], [and] if such a person is pressed by suffering, with not enough time to be mindful of Buddha, the good friend tells one these words, "If you cannot be mindful of that Buddha, you should chant [call the name of; be mindful of] 'Amitayus [Immeasurable Life] Buddha [Wu Liang Shou Fo; Amituofo]'. With such sincerity of mind [and heart], let this voice be unceasing [continuous], completing ten moments of mindfulness, chanting 'Refuge in [Homage to] Amita Buddha [Namo Amituofo]'.
Due to chanting of the Buddha's name, within moment to moment mindfulness, the misgivings of life and death of eighty kotis [1 koti is about 100 million] of kalpas are extinguished [diluted by the merits created by oneself and as shared by Amituofo through connection with him]. Within the lotus flower, after 12 full great kalpas, when the lotus flower blossoms, Avalokiteshvara and Mahasthamaprapta [Bodhisattvas], with their voices of great compassion, extensively teach that person the suchness of all dharmas, which extinguishes one's [remaining] misgivings [upon realising them]. Having heard [learnt] these [teachings], one rejoices, and immediately aspires to the mind [and heart] of Bodhicitta [to guide one and all to awaken; to attain Buddhahood]. This is called one who is born of the lowest level of the lowest grade, [and] is called the contemplation of the lowest grade [with the highest and middle levels of the lowest grade together], called the sixteenth contemplation."
- Sutra of Contemplation of Amitayus Buddha
Thanks for the info.