Too profound!
-
Hi all -
Some concepts in Buddhism are so so so difficult to understand eg No-self and Emptiness. Is it possible to end one's suffering simply by following the 5 precepts and eightfold path without actually understanding these concepts?
In this aspect, theistic religions are much "easier to follow" as one simply needs to believe and one would be "saved":)
Kindly advise or comment. Thank you.
-
Start with suffering or unsatisfactoriness with self, what is self, why we are unhappy, why our clinging to the relating everything to the notion of self causes unsatisfactoriness?! The notion of I, me, mind, soul as a permanent entity and suffering arising from that! Breakdown the components that we define self, the you will get no self?
-
Only through personal investigation, then you understand no self, we will make assumption as we go along. Calm abiding and insight meditation gives you incisiveness of mind for investigation! What other can offer you is reference according to your level of personal attainments.
-
Be patient
The road to freedom has no shortcuts. Just because you can't understand doesn't mean u forever cannot understand what the Teachings are all about
here's one sutta to boost your confidence
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.024.wlsh.html
Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink)
[At Kapilavasthu] Now at that time Sarakaani the Sakyan, who had died, was proclaimed by the Blessed One to be a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. At this, a number of the Sakyans, whenever they met each other or came together in company, were indignant and angry, and said scornfully: "A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"
[Mahaanaama the Sakyan reported this to the Buddha who said:] "Mahaanaama, a lay-follower who has for a long time taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha — how could he go to states of woe? [And this can be truly said of Sarakaani the Sakyan.] How could he go to states of woe?
"Mahaanaama, take the case of a man endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, declaring 'He is the Blessed One...,'[1] the Dhamma... the Sangha... He is joyous and swift in wisdom, one who has gained release.[2] By the destruction of the cankers he has by his own realization gained the cankerless heart's release, the release through wisdom, in this very life, and abides in it. The man is entirely released from the hell-state, from rebirth as an animal,[3] he is free from the realm of hungry ghosts, fully freed from the downfall, the evil way, from states of woe.
"Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha... the Dhamma... the Sangha... he is joyous and swift in wisdom but has not gained release. Having destroyed the five lower fetters,[4] he is reborn spontaneously[5] where he will attain Nibbaana without returning from that world. That man is entirely released from... states of woe.
"Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he is not joyous in wisdom and has not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters[6] and weakening lust, hatred and delusion, he is a Once-returner, who will return once more to this world and put an end to suffering. That man is entirely freed from... states of woe.
"Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he is not joyous in wisdom and has not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters he is a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. That man is entirely freed... from states of woe.
"Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But perhaps he has these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are moderately approved by him with insight. That man does not go to the realm of hungry ghosts, to the downfall, to the evil way, to states of woe.
"Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to... states of woe.[7]
"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.'[8]
Notes
- 1.
- These are, of course, the standard formulations for referring to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. They seem to fit awkwardly into the context here and may have been interpolated.
- 2.
- These terms are used of Saariputta at SN 2.9 (not translated here). Cf. the distinction between difficult and easy progress in VM XXI, 117.
- 3.
- Theosophists and others maintain that rebirth as an animal, after a human existence, is impossible. This view is not supported by the Buddhist texts of any school.
- 4.
- Cf. n. 300. This is the anaagaamin or "Non-Returner."
- 5.
- I.e., not born from a womb by spontaneously arising in another world (in this case the "Pure Abodes" (suddhaavaasaa), where they will attain to final release without returning to this world).
- 6.
- These are the first three of the five lower fetters (orambhaagiya-sa.myojanaani Vol. I, n. 83), i.e., sakkaaya-di.t.thi "personality-view" or belief in a permanent, really existing self; vicikicchaa "doubt" (once the "personality-view" has been shattered, there can be no further fundamental doubt about the Dhamma); and siilabbata-paraamaasa "attachment to rites and rituals" (siila + vata). It is noteworthy that even at this (second) stage on the Path, sensuality (kaamaraaga) and ill-will (vyaapaada), the fourth and fifth fetters, are only weakened but not destroyed. Their destruction is, however, inevitable.
- 7.
- An encouraging message for many! Cf. the end of MN 22, and also the charming image of the new-born calf in MN 34. The Commentary (MA) to MN 22 says such people are termed "lesser stream-winners" (cuulasotaapannaa). This term is discussed in VM XIX, 27. The stress laid here on the importance of faith is interesting in view of later developments such as the Pure Land Schools (e.g., Jodo-Shishu or "Shin-Buddhism" in Japan).
- 8.
- Sarakaani in fact became a Stream-winner at the moment of death.
-
didn't eightfold path include right view?. in Mahayana idea we say 戒定慧, precept/discipline lead to concentration lead to wisdom. precept is a good start.
Shurangama Sutra 楞严ç»�》ä¸è¯´ï¼šæ±�常闻我毗奈耶ä¸ï¼Œå®£è¯´ä¿®è¡Œä¸‰å†³å®šä¹‰ã€‚æ‰€è°“æ‘„å¿ƒä¸ºæˆ’ã€‚å› æˆ’ç”Ÿå®šã€‚å› å®šå�‘慧。是则å��ä¸ºä¸‰æ— æ¼�å¦ã€‚戒定慧就是原则，就是我们å¦ä½›çš„æ–¹å�‘ã€‚å› æˆ’ç”Ÿå®šï¼Œå› å®šå�‘æ…§
affinity 'yuan' is also involve.
in Buddha's disciple, Culapanthaka who is toward lacking of understanding side also can reach enlightenment through mind disciplining.
周利槃特Cudapanthaka, The Door Watching Arhat (16): (Also called Culapanthaka, or Pantha the Younger) This is the younger brother of Panthaka above; his name means "Little Panthaka," or Road-born. There are two famous stories about him. One is that he was slow-witted, and unable to learn even a single verse. But the Buddha, using skillful means, taught him to sweep (in some versions, to wipe) and repeat a simple verse, such as "Sweeping broom," to focus his mind. This simple method led him to Enlightenment. Another story says that he used to knock roughly on people's doors to beg for food. Once, he knocked on an old, rotten door, and it fell to pieces! So the Buddha gave him a ringed staff (like that held by Bhadra next to him) and told him to pound the ground with it, instead of pounding on the door with his fist. Through this (and the sweeping association) he came to be thought of as one who guards the doors of the senses, letting only pure things in.
And when Ananda listened to Buddha teach the Shurangama Sutra, He was able to understand the meaning/Insight, and he was just a 1st stage stream entry but those 4th stage Arahats who practice samathi meditation, were not able to understand the idea. There was "yuan" affinity involve.
so if can understand, good, if cannot understand, no need to force. yuan bah.
i think No-self and Emptiness are not that difficult to understand with modern understanding of science. like everything and person can be broken down into atoms/molecules/energy. everything and person are form together by atoms/molecules/energy. Buddha also added in our consciousness and emotions which are also not fix. it can be the understanding of Impermanence, or that said, The only constant is change.
/\
-
In my opinion, dont ponder too much in the teaching of emptiness if you find it too difficult to understand. As emptiness teaching is not meant for student that not ready.
The teaching of emptiness is due to the kindness of the teacher, they teach, planting the seed for the understanding for us now or maybe for our future life.
start from the basis and slowly work your way up... eventually you will understand emptiness, might not in this life but in one of the life.. hahaha
even just practising kidness is a fantastic start..
-
It is not too difficult to understand no self and emptiness but it is not easy to realise it. Just observe ourselves and things around us, you will notice that nothing exists without the combination of components. Thus, nothing actually exists by itself, we are just the combination of components. Any one of the main organs fail to function or lack of food or air etc. is enough to kill a person.
A seed will not grow into anything without sunlight, water and air. We are unable to control our body from aging and sickness. This just got to show that this body is not ours.
Anyway, there are many dharma doors. I chose the easiest to understand which is Pureland.
I understand that all Buddhists must learn and realise about "no self" and "emptiness" . Either you learn and realise them in samsara (if you have the ability) or you learn them in Pureland. It is a must subject for all Buddhists, learn them now or later.
"No self" or "emptiness" is the ultimate truth. Believe and you will be saved is nice but to me, it's not the ultimate truth.
-
good explanation Dawn...indeed Truth has many doors...the moment one enters, there is another swung open..leading to another seemingly interconnected door..illusions are indeed naughty perceptions...
-
Originally posted by allkosong:
Hi all -
Some concepts in Buddhism are so so so difficult to understand eg No-self and Emptiness. Is it possible to end one's suffering simply by following the 5 precepts and eightfold path without actually understanding these concepts?
In this aspect, theistic religions are much "easier to follow" as one simply needs to believe and one would be "saved":)
Kindly advise or comment. Thank you.
Hi, i feel you must have the patience to explore. There is no way that our deeply embedded wrong views and habitual tendencies will suddenly disappear. We have to work with the momentum. For eg. a train that is travelling fast, in order to go in the opposite direction, has to first slow down its momentum, come to a stop, then accelerate in the other direction. Similarly, we are working with the momentum of our habits now, so it takes time to dissolve our conceptual frameworks and see things as they are.
Non-self and emptiness is the condition of things as they are. It is not beyond us, not somewhere else. It is the true characteristic of our everyday experience and therefore it is definitely possible to discover our true condition.
Over-eagerness, too much hope and fear, and also lack of patience can be a huge obstacle to discovering our true condition. It is better to be consistent, have a regular sitting practice, read helpful books and articles etc.
Try not to rely on an intellectual way to try to figure out the meaning of emptiness etc although it is helpful at certain times. It is more important to trust your direct experience. Especially during your meditation. Investigation in meditation actually means using your direct non-conceptual experience to investigate, not in an intellectual way.
This is my opinion only
-
Originally posted by Dharmadhatu:
Hi, i feel you must have the patience to explore. There is no way that our deeply embedded wrong views and habitual tendencies will suddenly disappear. We have to work with the momentum. For eg. a train that is travelling fast, in order to go in the opposite direction, has to first slow down its momentum, come to a stop, then accelerate in the other direction. Similarly, we are working with the momentum of our habits now, so it takes time to dissolve our conceptual frameworks and see things as they are.
Non-self and emptiness is the condition of things as they are. It is not beyond us, not somewhere else. It is the true characteristic of our everyday experience and therefore it is definitely possible to discover our true condition.
Over-eagerness, too much hope and fear, and also lack of patience can be a huge obstacle to discovering our true condition. It is better to be consistent, have a regular sitting practice, read helpful books and articles etc.
Try not to rely on an intellectual way to try to figure out the meaning of emptiness etc although it is helpful at certain times. It is more important to trust your direct experience. Especially during your meditation. Investigation in meditation actually means using your direct non-conceptual experience to investigate, not in an intellectual way.
This is my opinion only
I agree with Dharmadhatu,
Must have patience, consistency and discipline.
It is very possible to realise no-self... I have seen cases of success...
-
Thank you, everyone, for your kind reply.
Patience is something I lack, especially when faced with the knowledge that I am living with deeply ingrained wrong views, ignorance and delusion every single day. Moreover, the thought of having to go through another X number of lifetimes before being liberated is scary! Hence, this not-getting-anywhere makes me want to search for the answer in other directions sometimes.
I suppose everything has its time and place. I should stick with the investigation and not have any expectations.