Thought

• Metta with Mindfulness

  1 Jul 12, 09:59

  Can thought see thought? If not, how we can be aware of thought?
• simpo_

  1 Jul 12, 11:20

  Originally posted by Metta with Mindfulness:

  Can thought see thought?

  If not, how we can be aware of thought?

  Awareness and what is being awared (example ... thoughts) is one non-dual whole. 

• Metta with Mindfulness

  1 Jul 12, 18:56

  The thought can be recalled but is there thought different from the thought that arise a moment ago?
• sinweiy

  1 Jul 12, 20:04

  recalled what thought?

  thoughts are like film strip running at countless films/thoughts per moment. 

  can't say they are same nor different, if we compare two of them side by side. 

   

  

• sinweiy

  2 Jul 12, 09:51

  remind me of the

  四分 The 法相 Dharmalaká¹£ana school divides the function of  è¯�  cognition into four, i. e. 相分 mental phenomena, è§�分 discriminating such phenomena, 自è¯�分 the power that discriminates, and è¯�自è¯� åˆ† the proof or assurance of that power. 

   

  not easy to understand. Alaya have all four aspects, including self understanding, understanding self understanding.

   

  阿賴耶識的功能分為四分：一�見分；二�相分；三�自證分；四

  �證自證分。

   

  證自證分就是真如，就是唯一真心，也就是佛性。

   

  自證分是未破無始無明而猶迷的佛性。�是佛性，雖然在迷，但終

  究能夠證�，�自體自證自用，所以��自證分。

   

  相分是由於真如�守自性，妄動而自生疑，迷�了本來智光圓明的

  自性，以致使本有的無相真如變�虛空四大的妄相，這虛空四大的

  妄相復變為山河大地�日月星辰��木�林了。所以說，這山河大

  地�日月星辰等等，看起來是器世間，但��是我們第八識的相分

  變�出來的。因有無明之故，使我們迷失了本性，佛性被無明包裹

  �，鑽進軀殼��，而執著這個少分的四大為自我，���這個身

  é«”æ‰�是我，æ‰�是自身，å�»ä¸�識一切事物都是我，外é�¢çš„器世間——

  山河大地�日月星辰��木�林等等，都是我們法身四大種性所變

  �，都是我們自己，都是八識的相分。把身外的多分的地水�風四

  大一切物境都�為是身外之物，�關我事，�識得色身為我，而�

  知空寂為我，把本來的智慧光明，變�為能見的妄見，豈�冤苦�

  倘若你精進用功，打破了無明，�璞歸真，識得本來�目，方知你

  的自性是盡虛空�法界，一切境物無�是你心王的王土。佛性無相

  ，能大能�，大而無外，�而無內。山河大地�日月星辰那麼大，

  但並�在我性之外，俱是我們的圓明真性所顯�，屬於本性的相分

  。既然在我性之內，那麼�是我�是誰呢？既然是佛性所�，那麼

  山河大地�日月星辰��木�林等器世間也是佛�

   

  所謂見分，就是我們能看見事物的功能。但若看見事物，就執著在

  上�，則變為妄見了。如看見張長�矮，就�在張長�矮上，而�

  肯放手，這就是妄見了，這個妄見就是見分。

   

  /\

   

• Weychin

  2 Jul 12, 11:12

  I do not know whether if this fits your question; normally, our awareness are more or less singularly focused on one subject, eg. Your thoughts, with or without emotions, you still have other consciousness just not on your awareness screen! However, after meditation, your awareness, sort of defocuses it's main preoccuppation, first, lightness and clarity of mind, vividness of sight, inner silence, where external sounds do not get muffled together! And thoughts appeared much smaller, it is there but less consequential. Your awareness is more encompassing! The difference on awareness of thoughts is shift of perspective, unless you are refering to timeline sequencing of flow of thoughts, whether the (after) thought is the same?
• Weychin

  2 Jul 12, 11:16

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  remind me of the

  四分 The 法相 Dharmalaká¹£ana school divides the function of  è¯�  cognition into four, i. e. 相分 mental phenomena, è§�分 discriminating such phenomena, 自è¯�分 the power that discriminates, and è¯�自è¯� åˆ† the proof or assurance of that power. 

   

  not easy to understand. Alaya have all four aspects, including self understanding, understanding self understanding.

   

  阿賴耶識的功能分為四分：一�見分；二�相分；三�自證分；四

  �證自證分。

   

  證自證分就是真如，就是唯一真心，也就是佛性。

   

  自證分是未破無始無明而猶迷的佛性。�是佛性，雖然在迷，但終

  究能夠證�，�自體自證自用，所以��自證分。

   

  相分是由於真如�守自性，妄動而自生疑，迷�了本來智光圓明的

  自性，以致使本有的無相真如變�虛空四大的妄相，這虛空四大的

  妄相復變為山河大地�日月星辰��木�林了。所以說，這山河大

  地�日月星辰等等，看起來是器世間，但��是我們第八識的相分

  變�出來的。因有無明之故，使我們迷失了本性，佛性被無明包裹

  �，鑽進軀殼��，而執著這個少分的四大為自我，���這個身

  é«”æ‰�是我，æ‰�是自身，å�»ä¸�識一切事物都是我，外é�¢çš„器世間——

  山河大地�日月星辰��木�林等等，都是我們法身四大種性所變

  �，都是我們自己，都是八識的相分。把身外的多分的地水�風四

  大一切物境都�為是身外之物，�關我事，�識得色身為我，而�

  知空寂為我，把本來的智慧光明，變�為能見的妄見，豈�冤苦�

  倘若你精進用功，打破了無明，�璞歸真，識得本來�目，方知你

  的自性是盡虛空�法界，一切境物無�是你心王的王土。佛性無相

  ，能大能�，大而無外，�而無內。山河大地�日月星辰那麼大，

  但並�在我性之外，俱是我們的圓明真性所顯�，屬於本性的相分

  。既然在我性之內，那麼�是我�是誰呢？既然是佛性所�，那麼

  山河大地�日月星辰��木�林等器世間也是佛�

   

  所謂見分，就是我們能看見事物的功能。但若看見事物，就執著在

  上�，則變為妄見了。如看見張長�矮，就�在張長�矮上，而�

  肯放手，這就是妄見了，這個妄見就是見分。

   

  /\

   

   

• Weychin

  2 Jul 12, 11:31

  Sinweiy, could you translate it in english? Also, is there any texts on the mechanics of the 6th, 7th and 8th consciousness? Their interplay? Currently, my understanding is these are different aspects of the mind consciousness.
• sinweiy

  3 Jul 12, 09:32

  http://www.nalanda-university.com/buddhist-ayurveda-encylopedia/eight_consciousnesses_vijnana_skandha_aggregate.htm

  Weychin, yes, but 四分the four cognition function mentioned above is a little bit different from 6th, 7th and 8th consciousness. they are more on functionality.

  6th, 7th and 8th consciousness, u can find a lot in the net, but i cannot find much english texts on the four cognition function. mostly are in chinese. i am also trying to make it simple to understand, but still cannot seem to sort out the mechanics. my translation is not that good. also need time. :)

  i have them noted in my archived.

  can say, part of the function is related to phenomenon itself 相分; part of the function is perceiving of phenomenon �分.recognizing this perceiving of phenomenon自�; and knowing this recognition �自�?

   /\

   

  基於這個�輯，末那的能執能見作用，是��能見到賴耶的能見作用的，��能看見賴耶的相分，所以若說，末那執賴耶見分為我這話是無法�立的。但為何唯識�這�置��作出改動呢？這是因為唯識�建立起他們的架構，他們需�為大圓�智��一個��的自我作用，�然當賴耶轉��智的時候，�智就�能無緣無故的生起一個能知能見的作用，這是唯識宗無計�施下，暗地裡用��概念的方法來自圓其說一番。

  我想我這樣說，大家�會用什麼根本智，後得智的論說來��我，但希望大家在��我之�，細心想想那�話的�輯性有多少��

  ----------------------------------------------

   

  ※第八識具有四分，為何第七識僅緣見分，為何�緣相分�自證分�證自證分？其原因：第一�阿賴耶識內在所存之自證分�證自證分，形態�常幽隱微細，�末那識所能辨別，所以�緣。第二�阿賴耶識所緣相似外境之根身器界之相分，皆為第八識之相分所變�，但此變�之相分��常�變，且無統一的象徵，所以第七識�緣外在之相分。第三�阿賴耶識內在所��之種�亦是相分，此種�有有��無�，有�種�修到無����時，有�種�就被�治��存在，因此此有�種���常�變，所以第七識�緣。

   

   

   

   

   

   

• Weychin

  3 Jul 12, 12:50

  Much appreciative, sinweiy! Please be kind to share more on this wherever possible! Pardon my cluminess in interpretation:- Please correct me if you think I am flawed; the first aspect is when our senses comes into contact with phenomena, flower, vision sensing flower. Second aspect focus of awareness to sensing of flower. Third aspect,awareness or acknowledgement of this process of sensation, eg. reifying the process. Fourth second, an overview type of awareness, as if" you", the awareness is like a watcher monitoring the build up or unfolding of events! Which aspect does the discriminating of flower comes in; eg. Colour, petals three dimensionality of petal texture etc. does the registering belong to?
• Weychin

  3 Jul 12, 12:52

  Also, when does the association to memory of description " flower" comes into play?
• Pegembara

  3 Jul 12, 15:35

  Originally posted by Metta with Mindfulness:

  Can thought see thought?

  If not, how we can be aware of thought?

  What you typed above are thoughts aren't day? Not only you but every one who reads them can literally see your thoughts!

• Pegembara

  3 Jul 12, 15:35

  Originally posted by Metta with Mindfulness:

  Can thought see thought?

  If not, how we can be aware of thought?

  What you typed above are thoughts aren't day? Not only you but every one who reads them can literally see your thoughts!

• Pegembara

  3 Jul 12, 15:44

  Thoughts cannot know thoughts but the mind can obviously become aware of them. It is just that most of the time we just didn't recognize them as thoughts. Mind continue to produce more and more thoughts (proliferates).

  But once recognized it becomes possible for proliferations to stop by itself.

• Pegembara

  3 Jul 12, 15:49

  Originally posted by Metta with Mindfulness:

  The thought can be recalled but is there thought different from the thought that arise a moment ago?

  The 1st thought arise and passes. It conditions the next thought and the process repeats until a condition eg. a loud bang interrupts or ends the process.

• Ihatemen

  3 Jul 12, 20:24

  Sometimes it can come in the form of a dream which describes in detail of the past and presents a conclusion/explaination why it happens so vividly that you are enlightened once you wake up.
• sinweiy

  3 Jul 12, 22:15

  Originally posted by Weychin:

  ; the first aspect is when our senses comes into contact with phenomena, flower, vision sensing flower. Second aspect focus of awareness to sensing of flower. Third aspect,awareness or acknowledgement of this process of sensation, eg. reifying the process. Fourth second, an overview type of awareness, as if” you”, the awareness is like a watcher monitoring the build up or unfolding of events!
  Which aspect does the discriminating of flower comes in; eg. Colour, petals three dimensionality of petal texture etc. does the registering belong to?

  i think first aspect IS phenomena itself, i.e. phenomena is manifested by the nature of the mind. Second aspect is when senses simply comes into contact with phenomena, flower, vision sensing flower.  Awareness or acknowledgement of this process of sensation, eg. reifying the process, can sort of be second or third. Third aspect, can also be an overview type of awareness, as if” you”, the awareness is like a watcher monitoring the build up or unfolding of events. but who is this "you" or "watcher" that is aware. so third can be an ignorant aspect of Buddha-nature. So Dharmalaká¹£ana school thinks that the mind have another aspect to ratify this ignorance, which is the Fourth aspect of the mind. It's the Awakened Buddha-nature. So do we need another aspect to ratify the fourth? no need, Third aspect can do it. Fourth and third, ratify each other. 

  discriminating is at the second? not really in the Awakened perspective, as it is Simply just a contact of phenomena. 8th consciousness got all 4 aspects. 1st to 6th is more toward the second aspect. 7th consciousness only reify the second aspect and not the rests of the aspects, hence discrimination is form. 

  "Also, when does the association to memory of description ” flower” comes into play?"

  in the Ignorance perspective or Awakened perspective? :) memory of description ” flower” is also a form of discrimination, or attachment, or wandering thoughts.  

  since Fourth and third, ratify each other. Ignorance and Awakened/Knowing also ratify each other. Affliction and Bodhi is one. 

  thoughts itself is just thoughts. Awakening is overcoming the discrimination, attachment. discrimination are thoughts wandered away. 

  /\

• bycai

  5 Jul 12, 16:09

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  recalled what thought?

  thoughts are like film strip running at countless films/thoughts per moment. 

  can't say they are same non different, if we compare two of them side by side. 

   

  

  These flim strips are interesting. It details on the alaya consciousness based on its continuation of the past and the very moment that unknowingly/knowingly carrying forward to form the future. Normal circumstances are memories of present life, whereas the past lives may not necessarily be recalled due to its imperceptibility, most likely experiences is in the dream stage. Having opin on this, buddha dearly mentioned that, 'The past is already gone, the future is not yet here. Probably, the film strips of the past if arise from mind should "hold filmly" as metta, even though you decided that it was not a fond memory. It's always wise to tweet the bad film strip of the past into metta memory to transform it into positive flow. Gradually, all film strips would be metta, and if the dualism of metta is forgone, it enters into non-dualism.
  

• An Eternal Now

  5 Jul 12, 17:03

  Originally posted by Metta with Mindfulness:

  Can thought see thought?

  If not, how we can be aware of thought?

  
  Thought is, no thinker, no watcher. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XeCW-b41_E
• An Eternal Now

  5 Jul 12, 17:19

  From Longchenpa's Treasury of Pith Instructions:
  

  quote:

  ---

  DIRECT INTRODUCTION
  
  Six points summarize the process of direct introduction: The true ground of all experience is nondual and free of bias. The confused perception of that ground is the nature of samsara. Confused perception and fixation on that confusion are magical expressions of your own mind. Reversing that confusion lies in refining your experience of the dynamic energy of awareness, which has no fixed basis. Ordinary appearances and mind resolve naturally, free within timeless awareness, and so you take a firm stance in the primordial state of naturally pristine timeless awareness. These six points are extremely important general themes in the teachings; the mere realization of their meaning naturally brings fulfillment.
  
  DIRECT INTRODUCTION TO THE THREE KAYAS
  
  The distinct features of a crystal sphere, a mirror, and rays of sunlight represent the three aspects of innately limpid essence, nature and expression. Dharmakaya is by nature a state of complete purity, comparable to the inherent purity of a crystal sphere. Sambhogakaya's mode of presence is by nature a state of utter lucidity, comparable to a reflection in a polished mirror. Nirmanakaya's manifest mode is an embodiment that entails no division of outer and inner, like rays of the sun or moon shining in the ten directions. In that the kayas are timelessly and spontaneously present within you, do not seek them elsewhere, but understand that they are natural attributes.
  
  CONCEPTS AS ALLIES
  
  There are six ways to embrace concepts as allies: Maintain an ongoing awareness of conceptual consciousness as if it were a gentle breeze, dying down in and of itself; you will experience naturally occurring timeless awareness arising from within. Train in experiencing the stirring of the mind as if it were lighting in the sky, pure in and of itself; you will experience anything that stirs in the mind arising as naturally lucid timeless awareness. Maintain an ongoing awareness of consciousness as if it were a ripple on water, diminishing in and of itself; you will experience all consciousness arising as the naturally occurring and majestic state of enlightened intent. Maintain an ongoing awareneess of any concepts as allies, arising as expressions of the true nature of reality; you will experience enlightened intent arising from deep within, involving no acceptance or rejection. Maintain an ongoing awarness of your fixated perceptions as allies, resolving naturally with no object remaining; you will experience timeless awareness arising within you, without fixed basis, and will perceive things as evanescent. Maintain an ongoing awareness of the natural radiance of awareness, lucid and pure, as an ally--the lucid expanse of being; you will experience timeless awareness arising from deep within, vivid yet leaving no trace. You who practice thus, immersing yourselves in genuine being, will experience timeless awareness arising from thoughts themselves. It is absolutely essential that you experience all things manifesting as your allies, just as stacks of dry wood fuel a great fire."

  ---

• sinweiy

  5 Jul 12, 18:01

  What is Reborn ?

   

  A very good, classic & somewhat complex question!

   

  In brevity:

   

  Causes & Conditioning is passed on & reborn ...

   

  No being, substance, soul or self is reborn as such assumed constant entity or core substance has never existed or ever been observed in the first place...

  So how can it then ever be 'reborn' !!!

   

  Existence is a chain of discrete mental states (dhammas) all new yet conditioned

  by the prior, both proximate and far.

   

  Just like the pearl in a necklace is in contact with the next & next & next etc.

   

  In that way do the prior mental moment condition the next;

   

  Some Examples: (i like this examples)

   

  If angry now in this moment one cannot be happy in the immediate next moment,

  but is conditioned to be either angry also there or indifferent!

   

  If glad now in this moment one cannot be angry in the immediate next moment,

  but is conditioned to be either glad also there or indifferent!

   

  One is 'reborn' in every moment of life!

  Frequency = ~ billions/second!

   

  The conditioning in the terminal life moment is crucial as it determines the next state:

   

  If having killed many beings in life how then to die in a peaceful & calm state ?

  Due to the agitation of remorse & regrets in death moment => bad state rebirth.

   

  If having given & done much good in life it is easy to die in peaceful state !

  Due to the satisfied serene content in death moment => good state rebirth.

   

  Mind or consciousness descends & settles at a new level corresponding or fitting

  to its last mixture of characteristics. Very mechanic & not metaphysical at all!

   

  Like a protein molecule sediments in a mixed solution according to its boyancy.

   

  or

   

  Like a comet goes into a orbit around a planet according to its own speed, mass & inclination angle.

   

  No entity or person is found:

  But a Noself state1 arising and ceasing

  conditioning state2 arising and ceasing

  conditioning state3 arising and ceasing

  conditioning state4 arising and ceasing

  conditioning state5 arising and ceasing

  etc ... endlessly until Nibbana ...

   

  bhikkhu samahita : - ]

   

• sinweiy

  5 Jul 12, 18:12

  Originally posted by bycai:

  Probably, the film strips of the past if arise from mind should "hold filmly" as metta, even though you decided that it was not a fond memory. It's always wise to tweet the bad film strip of the past into metta memory to transform it into positive flow. Gradually, all film strips would be metta, and if the dualism of metta is forgone, it enters into non-dualism.
  

  
  metta? hmm...can't relate why i would purposely convert my past negative memories into metta. past is past, just let it past? can say, convert the present into non-abiding ones.

  /\

• Weychin

  13 Jul 12, 15:37

  Thank you sinweiy! I shall put my understanding of explanation in a flow chart! :- Consciousness or Mind only, a functionality or processes of the Mind eg. software instead of hardware!4 Awareness- 8th consciousness/store consciousness/ collective memories- acquired identity or I/self/soul/conceptual mind due to fundalmental clinging- attraction and aversion recieved from sensate consciousness!

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  i think first aspect IS phenomena itself, i.e. phenomena is manifested by the nature of the mind. Second aspect is when senses simply comes into contact with phenomena, flower, vision sensing flower.  Awareness or acknowledgement of this process of sensation, eg. reifying the process, can sort of be second or third. Third aspect, can also be an overview type of awareness, as if” you”, the awareness is like a watcher monitoring the build up or unfolding of events. but who is this "you" or "watcher" that is aware. so third can be an ignorant aspect of Buddha-nature. So Dharmalaká¹£ana school thinks that the mind have another aspect to ratify this ignorance, which is the Fourth aspect of the mind. It's the Awakened Buddha-nature. So do we need another aspect to ratify the fourth? no need, Third aspect can do it. Fourth and third, ratify each other. 

  discriminating is at the second? not really in the Awakened perspective, as it is Simply just a contact of phenomena. 8th consciousness got all 4 aspects. 1st to 6th is more toward the second aspect. 7th consciousness only reify the second aspect and not the rests of the aspects, hence discrimination is form. 

  "Also, when does the association to memory of description ” flower” comes into play?"

  in the Ignorance perspective or Awakened perspective? :) memory of description ” flower” is also a form of discrimination, or attachment, or wandering thoughts.  

  since Fourth and third, ratify each other. Ignorance and Awakened/Knowing also ratify each other. Affliction and Bodhi is one. 

  thoughts itself is just thoughts. Awakening is overcoming the discrimination, attachment. discrimination are thoughts wandered away. 

  /\

   

• Weychin

  13 Jul 12, 15:49

  You can see that I put Awareness as encompassing, it is ever present in all processes. Our perception and what is stored as consciousness comes from our deluded mind, a division of individual entity against the external background of environment. The above oversimplies the direction of process! It attribute our behaviour to our storehouse consciousness. Below chart simplifies contribution of sensate consciousness to storehouse consciousness:- Sensate consciousness- pleasurable, unpleasant sensations- self/ emotion label/ conceptual thought processing- associative informationaccording to Self- Memory/ Storehouse consciousnesses.
• Weychin

  13 Jul 12, 15:57

  The main intermediary is the I/Self/Soul/ Permanent Entity which forms delusional memories on one hand and act accordingly to external sensations on behalf of "I" ! We acquire traits not only from this inherited body, but also from store consciousness at time of birth or conception. This determines our behaviour to external influences until we are mature to develop and "I" identity and conceptual thought in relation to "I" !