"I AM" realization, experience...or nothing?
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Hello,
First post here, so hello to everyone. I had a question regarding stage 1 of the Thusness map of enlightenment, I AM. First a little background:
I've been following this forum for a few months and reading AEN's book and blog for about six. I've been meditating for just over 2 years, averaging 75-90 minutes/day. The last year I've been using Bhante Vimalaramsi's TWIM method. Essentially following the breath and dropping any tension/thought as it arises and relaxing mind and body. I've also been using the "Who Am I?" question for about 3 months. Recently I've had some experiences and changes in my practice and would just like to see if it lines up with stage 1, as I'm begining to suspect. I keep a regular journal on Dharma Overground here:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2070463
I'll quote from my journal to show what I wrote at the time.
July 29: "My ability to just be present and allow experience to be has increased noticeably. I feel this body much more clearly and constantly, also with a level of ...vibrancy, energy, dynamism. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it feels like a lot of energy has been freed up in me. And it is unusual and pleasant. I'm finding that I can sit and just feel the senses experiencing sensations arise and pass and this brings a level of happiness that surprises me. I don't really "meditate" right now, I just sit and watch and enjoy. I can do this walking down the street just as easily as in formal practice"
The above lasted for about 3 days, I was very still and felt actively engaged with the present moment in a completely new way. I was at all times clearly not the senses but the observer only, and this was ridiculously pleasant. I described it to someone as feeling like I realized I'm the ocean floor holding all the water and not really the water at all.
August 15:"The past couple days I've been trying to push my attention outwards with interesting results. I'm feeling much lighter and more open, as well as having much more energy. It seems like I've become aware of a constant flow of energy within me. It almost feels as though I'm only recently aware that I'm a living being. It feels like I'm aware of the animating energy within this body for the first time.(This is very similar to the 3 days I had recently in which I spoke of a feeling of vibrancy, though that was constant and automatic, this requires me to turn my attention towards the feeling of energy)"
These few days of clarity were pretty amazing, the phrase above: "feels as though I'm only recently aware that I'm a living being" describes it well though not with enough strength. It really was a completely new way of being in the world.
The period between these two posts involved some frustration with having "lost" the pleasantness. I have a strong tendency to try to force my meditation which is exactly opposite of what seems to actually work. So...I have the experience then when it faeds I push like hell to get it back, which ensures it won't occur. Then I realize what I'm doing and relax and it slowly reappears.
I began re-reading "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle yesterday and his description of the "energy body" seems very close to what I feeling.
The question: Is this the "I AM" stage. Is it an experience of it, or a realization, or am I fooling myself? This is not my default mode of being, it comes and goes. If I can relax and allow things to just be as they are it arises, if I try to force or manipulate then it is gone and it's almost like I dream. I have no doubt this is some new(for me) way of being, I'd just like to know what it is, so I can practice most effectively.
Feel free to ask any questions to clarify my post, and thanks in advance to anyone willing to share their experience or knowledge!
Metta,
Brian.
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Hi, welcome to this forum. You described the experience of I AM but not the realization of it. Personally I had glimpses of the experience for over 2~3 years before the self-realization. Some people may get it faster, idk. But self-inquiry will get you there.
The difference between experience/realization is as described in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html
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Is this your experience: "The living force and power that gives life, that makes things grow, that heals, that makes the world spin..." "God is the life in you, the living, the everything of you"
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Thanks for the response!
I was thinking the same thing(experience only) but wanted to make sure I'm at least heading in the right direction.
""The living force and power that gives life, that makes things grow, that heals, that makes the world spin..." "God is the life in you, the living, the everything of you""
This is a very good description of what it feels like. I'm actually experiencing it now, have been since I woke up(I'm in Canada, it's 11am). It just feels like I can relax and allow this...whatever it is to do it's thing. It really does feel like "God" working through me, that's not a description I would have ever used in the past, but it is accurate. All the pressure is off "me", I can just enjoy living, and I am.
The need for me to relax to allow this can't be overstated, any effort, and it's gone. It seems like meditation allows the mind to slow down and allow this expereince to arise naturally.
Is there any benefit to using this feeling as an object of meditation, and throughtout my day? Or would it be best to just stick with what I've been doing?
Metta,
Brian.
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hi brian, your case reminded me of someone in this forum five years ago, casino€_king.
he had similar initial openings. Just told Thusness about it and he just advised "feel this energy and aliveness in a relaxed way until total and complete oneness. Work on the view later. Total oneness means there is no gap between him and this sensation of energetic aliveness. And understand what exactly led to the separation" -
Thank you for the advice!
I've been trying it for the past couple days and it seems like it will be benefical. Whenever I ask "Who Am I?" the subtle feeling of aliveness becomes prominent in my expereince and I can just gently feel it within me. It allows me to drop thoughts and just come back to the present feeling of being alive.
I'm excited to see where this all leads!
Metta,
Brian.
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Sounds great, keep us updated on any developments :)
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Just to update my progress...It feels like I'm going backwards, lol.
I haven't had anything close to my previous "experiences", they are just a distant memory. Instead, I now seem to be struggling with tension in my forehead most of the time, but especially whenever I meditate, (about 1.5 hrs/day). I had been experiencing frequent moments of stillness and openness, but now it seems as though my attention has collapsed back to a contracted and cramped and unpleasant point. My attention seems focused in my forehead instead of my entire body. Oddly when I meditate the tension is focused at my left eyebrow(?)
I have a lifelong habit of "trying" really hard. This works great in most endeavours but sems to be my biggest obstacle in this practice. I'm frustrated at this current situation, but not as much as I would have been 6-12 months ago, so I do seem to be lightening up at least.
Hope all is well in Singapore!
Metta,
Brian.
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Hi BrianEleven,
Certain patience is necessary. It will come and go for now, but with practice it will come again and eventually stabilize, especially after certain insight. Continue to practice meditation, self-inquiry, but not seek after anything.
This is from the 2nd conversation I ever had with Thusness, in August 2004:
[21:45] <^john^> true quality of meditation comes when there is this sudden awareness of the 'I'.
[21:45] <^john^> a mere sense of pure existence.
[21:47] <^john^> The Isness that Merely IS without any sense of thought.
[21:47] <^john^> and this is what one should treasure most. :)
[21:48] <^john^> but when the experience is mixed with the content of thought, it becomes pretty confusing.
[21:48] <^john^> Coz thought cannot touch its realm.
[21:50] <^john^> When one tries to capture this experience out of his meditative state, he will suffer great pain.
[21:53] <^john^> what i can tell u is that Buddhism has profound insight into the nature of 'I'. And it is true about whatever that is taught. :)
[21:54] <^john^> Pure awareness is the only peace there is.
[21:55] AEN: the nature if "i" is also non-dualistic. and any concept and perspective and view of the "i" is naturally delusioned. rite?
[21:56] <^john^> yes but knowing must not come from thinking. It must come from a direct perception.
[21:56] <^john^> Before entering into buddhism, i thought it is not possible to recapture this state of non-dual.
[21:57] <^john^> but constant practice will proof this wrong.
[21:57] <^john^> in fact we can by vipassana meditation.Soon after he commented on someone in IRC:
[21:06] <^john^> coz he experience his presence. :)
[21:06] <ZeN`n1th> oic...
[21:06] <^john^> and got authenticated from some zen conversations and hinduism texts.
[21:07] <^john^> The Pure Presence though always present is recaptured as memory.
[21:07] <^john^> he struggles to re-enter it. :)............
[23:09] <^john^> the truth cannot be understood through deduction. It is a form of direct experience.
[23:10] <^john^> however that experience is so unique that one wanted to recapture that experience again.
[23:10] <ZeN`n1th> oic...
[23:11] <^john^> the mind will exhaust all ways and methods for it, it will struggle.
[23:11] <ZeN`n1th> oic..
[23:12] <^john^> it is extremely important for the mind to temporarily give up and not struggle to understand anything. -
If you pause all thoughts right now, what's left? What are you?
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Originally posted by BrianEleven:
Just to update my progress...It feels like I'm going backwards, lol.
I haven't had anything close to my previous "experiences", they are just a distant memory. Instead, I now seem to be struggling with tension in my forehead most of the time, but especially whenever I meditate, (about 1.5 hrs/day). I had been experiencing frequent moments of stillness and openness, but now it seems as though my attention has collapsed back to a contracted and cramped and unpleasant point. My attention seems focused in my forehead instead of my entire body. Oddly when I meditate the tension is focused at my left eyebrow(?)
I have a lifelong habit of "trying" really hard. This works great in most endeavours but sems to be my biggest obstacle in this practice. I'm frustrated at this current situation, but not as much as I would have been 6-12 months ago, so I do seem to be lightening up at least.
Hope all is well in Singapore!
Metta,
Brian.
Hi Brian,
For me, during the earlier experience of 'presence' some years ago... the experience was physically painful too. I have tension on one half of my brain... it is as if one half of my head is in cramp and my eyes were not in sync.
These experience goes in cycles... take it easy... there is nothing much that can be done in terms of efforting... The karmic habits/conditioning need lots of time to overcome... You might want to take a break from meditating for so long as it is now fuelled by desire to acheive a certain result... It is now fuel by an 'I'.
Thinking is of no help... the release will have to become automatic. The only 'thing' that is of benefit is to realise no-self.
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Simpo's advises are great.
Check this out, its important too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6cdIaUZCA
Thusness was the one who introduced me to it and asked me to complement such approaches while I was practicing self-inquiry - http://www.shinzen.org/Retreat%20Reading/Return%20to%20the%20Source.pdf
Try this too. Its important and useful.
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An Eternal Now, Simpo.
Thanks both for the advice, and encouragement. I took a quick look at the video and PDF, they both look good, I'll spend a little more time with them when I get a chance.
Metta,
Brian.
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Just a short update. The experience of "I Am" still comes and goes. It's funny and frustrating, when present it seems so easy and obvious, but when gone it is nowhere to be found. I think that is because it's the mind that is doing the looking. Thoughts and effort seem to push it away.
So I feel like I'm moving, slowly, in the right direction. 30 minutes twice a day of meditation with an open awareness of the body, and the energy that animates it. During my day I keep my attention on the "energy" in the body as much as possible.
I've had some tesion in the head, but this seems to be lessening as I allow my attention to take in the entire body, and not just parts of it. I've also found it helpful to stay off the forums and minimize my reading about practice as that just seems to encourage my mind to become involved in the process. I'm trying to develop faith in the instructions I've already received, and just follow them as given, nothing added or taken away, and no need to analyze or deconstruct them.
Metta,
Brian.
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This is normal... just keep doing self-inquiry until realization arises, then there won't be doubts or that much frustration anymore.
Some pointers here: http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/essence_wheeler.htm
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I was just reading some other of John Wheeler's writings and something really struck me. The question "Before birth, who am I?" seems to provide a subtle clue that I just noticed and felt. The "before birth" part is very important. The answer to "Who am I?" is available before the birth of"me" But not my physical birth, the birth of "me" in each moment. If I just rest in the space prior to the birth of "I", that is the answer to "Who am I?" Prior to the mind newly creating "Brian" in this moment(and each moment) what is present is that which has always been present and Who I am. Maybe. I think.
Metta,
Brian.
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Hey Brian, I oftened wondered what's the point of the "before birth" part as well. Your explanation works very well for me. Thanks for sharing. Sometimes I think that koans would be friendlier if they made some questions just a bit clearer.
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This would also explain a couple of other things for me. The first is what teachers mean when they say that: nothing is attained, it has always been present, it's nothing special, etc. All of that is true, but it's like Ive been looking at one side of a coin, looking for the other side but mistakenly thinking it's a seperate coin. So I look out for some other coin to appear when I had both sides all along.
The second thing is the often mentioned idea that "there is only this moment". Makes sense now. From the point of view of "me" the moment before birth is non-individualized, without my or anyones personality, without preference or judgement. It is of one taste, and a very subtle one. But the time before the birth of "Brian" is the same today as it was 100 years ago.
I'm rambling, but so many things just suddenly seem to make perfect sense. It's a little disorienting. I hope this isn't one of those times that when I wake up tomorrow none of this makes any sense to me.
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Better to have it not make any sense than to have developed such a good grip on it conceptually that you just end up not looking for/at it anymore.
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Jui,
Glad that it may clarify things for you. But, take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm new to this, so it may be best to see if someone with a bit more experience/knowledge weighs in on it. It seems right to me, but I'd hate to steer anyone in the wrong direction because of my own ignorance.
Brian.
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"The gap between two thoughts is essence. But if in that gap there is a lack of presence, it becomes ignorance and we experience only a lack of awareness, almost an unconsciousness. If there is presence in the gap, then we experience the dharmakaya [the ultimate]."
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/122948?page=64
Exactly!
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Isn't the dharmakaya experience only after realization of anatta and shunyata though?
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I think so. I'm certainly not there yet. The quote just sounds like a description of my current expereince. Minus the dharmakaya part that is. The gap being the moment prior to birth.
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Originally posted by BrianEleven:
I was just reading some other of John Wheeler's writings and something really struck me. The question "Before birth, who am I?" seems to provide a subtle clue that I just noticed and felt. The "before birth" part is very important. The answer to "Who am I?" is available before the birth of"me" But not my physical birth, the birth of "me" in each moment. If I just rest in the space prior to the birth of "I", that is the answer to "Who am I?" Prior to the mind newly creating "Brian" in this moment(and each moment) what is present is that which has always been present and Who I am. Maybe. I think.
Metta,
Brian.
There is a purpose but Never try to understand what the koan is trying to do. That is one of the few things Thusness told me about self inquiry, he seldom give pointers on the practice. Just inquire until you have doubtless realization, all other conceptualizations are sidetracks. It prevents having a direct touch of your essence.
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Originally posted by Jui:
Isn't the dharmakaya experience only after realization of anatta and shunyata though?
Based on that quote alone it seems to be pointing out the I AMness aspect. Actually many teachers equate I AMness with dharmakaya. Each to his own understanding. Thusness understanding of dharmakaya is that it is only realized after twofold emptiness are actualized.