Questions about Thusness' 7 Stages
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Hello, I've recently started reading the book, Awakening to Reality, as well as the blog of the same name. The information contained in both has been excellent and incredibly helpful. Much thanks to An Eternal Now, Thusness, and any other contributors to the book and site.
As I've read over Thusness' 7 Stages many times, I've encountered several things which I'm a little unclear about. I would like to summarize my understanding below in the hopes that any misunderstandings I have will be pointed out and clarified. In addition, there are some things I'm not sure about at all. In those areas where I don't really know, I will ask questions. Thank you to anyone who takes the time to help clarify these questions.
Stage 1 - I AM
Stage 1 is the experience of I AM, When one realizes I AM, one feels an incredible certainty of Being. Being in this case refers to Awareness, and the practitioner is certain of Awareness. Things are happening and there is awareness of these things. Awareness is a constant. It underlies experience. It is with the person throughout all experiences, and it is the source from which phenomena arise. A person at I AM identifies themselves as awareness.
Stage 2 - I AM Everything
I am a little unclear about this stage, but as I understand it, one recognizes that this Beingness or Awareness extends to all things, and as such, one is everything.
Questions about Stage 1+2: Does the experience of I AM (Stage 1 or 2) impact how one perceives non-mental phenomena? For example, are objects brighter, clearer or more luminous? Does the mind feel clearer or more spacious?
Stage 3 - Entering into a State of Nothingness
Unclear about this stage. If I understand correctly, it is also more of a state than a stage. It seems that one moves beyond the state of I AM and moves to a point of identification with not the I AM itself, but the knower of the I AM, or the nothingness, that precedes the I AM. It is that which is not contingent on manifestation. Awareness and Manifestation rely on one another, but nothingness doesn't rely on anything.
Stage 4 - Presence as Mirror Bright Clarity
In stage 4, one realizes that things do not arise out of some Absolute Source. In the absence of an absolute, the subject-object split starts to crumble, and one's sense of identity and sense of self changes as well. Selfing type phenomena still arise, however, they are not relegated a higher status relative to other phenomena.
Questions about Stage 4:
Is MCTB 4th path equivalent to Stage 4? Are there other practices besides noting that lead directly to Stage 4? What is the experience of stage 4 characterized by: sensory clarity, brightness, a feeling of spaciousness?
Stage 5 - No Mirror Reflecting
Anatta is realized. This includes: no subject/object division, no doership, and absence of agent.
Questions about Stage 5: If one has realized stage 4, what is the best method for proceeding onto the realization of Anatta? Is how one proceeds affected by whether one has also had I AM realizations?
Stage 6 - The Nature of Presence is Empty
At this stage, one realizes the emptiness of all things.
Questions about Stage 6: Is the realization of emptiness the same as the realization of dependent origination?
Stage 7 - Presence is Spontaneously Perfected
All the preceding insights are refined and sync up at the moment of spontaneous perfection.
Questions about Stage 7: Is this the point when maha is realized?
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Hi John Kelly, welcome. I very much wanted Thusness to reply you but unfortunately he seldom reads or replies messages nowadays and does not want to give the impression of being a teacher.
I will try to reply... with my limited knowledge and experience.
Stage 1 is the experience of I AM, When one realizes I AM, one feels an incredible certainty of Being. Being in this case refers to Awareness, and the practitioner is certain of Awareness. Things are happening and there is awareness of these things. Awareness is a constant. It underlies experience. It is with the person throughout all experiences, and it is the source from which phenomena arise. A person at I AM identifies themselves as awareness.
Yes. It is just Awareness in one of the eighteen dhatus - pure mind realm. As Thusness pointed out, http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html
When consciousness experiences the pure sense of “I AM”, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By doing so, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in turn serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer -- the experience of Pure Sound-Consciousness is radically different from Pure Sight-Consciousness. Sincerely, if we are able to give up ‘I’ and replaces it with “Emptiness Nature”, Consciousness is experienced as non-local. No one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.
Questions about Stage 1+2: Does the experience of I AM (Stage 1 or 2) impact how one perceives non-mental phenomena? For example, are objects brighter, clearer or more luminous? Does the mind feel clearer or more spacious?
Yes, intense luminosity is experienced. Space-like pure presence is experienced. In Stage 2, there can be passing glimpses of non-dual experience (with everything) but one returns to the Subject, the background, the pure identity. There is no insight into non-dual or anatta. There is also the experience of impersonality, so the Self becomes infinite and impersonal, conceived as a universal source even. One feels like one is being lived or expressed by this common source. Despite having such experiences, the view one holds is still dualistic (subject/object duality) and inherent (an inherently existing Self)
As Thusness wrote in March 2005:
Hi LongChen,
The blankness is a form of absorption where the knowing faculty of consciousness is temporarily suspended. Complete clarity and Presence without a 'Self' is more crucial.
The 'Self' that is created over countless lives of attachment cannot be underestimated.
We are in almost helpless bondage that our perceptions are shaped and held in a sort
of hypnosis that we feel, think, experience and deduced our understandings from the
perspective of an 'I'. Thus analytical understanding derived from the glimpse of
the Pure Presence Reality will very quickly get distorted.
When Presence is experienced with the six sense doors shut,
Presence is experienced as a form of "I AMness".
When Presence is experience with six sense doors widely open,
Presence is experienced as a form of "I AM All".
However neither experience tells us the TRUE NATURE of Pure Presence.
Even the very sense of Realness, of Existence, of Life and Vividness is so strong,
due to the sense of 'I' there will be a sense of location somewhere,
and the true face of Pure Presence remains hidden.
The mind is just not used to knowing the absolutely nothing, non-local,
nowhere to be found yet pure, brillance bright and ever luminious.
It will locate, it will find, it will grasp.
There must come a time for the mind to let go of itself completely.
If we are bold enough to let go and enter into the world that is wordless,
labelless and thoughtless, and if this is substained, wisdom and insight will arise.
This wisdom is the extraordinary Clarity, Vividness and Realness, wholeness whole.
It is crystal clear filling all spaces and places.
Both in silence and in noise, in blankness and somethingness.
Those that experience the Pure Presence will appreciate this crystal clear reality.
This re-visting of Pure Presence will be thorough and entire.
There will be no doubt.
Buddhism Emptiness is deep and profound. Do go into it.
Happy JourneyUnclear about this stage. If I understand correctly, it is also more of a state than a stage. It seems that one moves beyond the state of I AM and moves to a point of identification with not the I AM itself, but the knower of the I AM, or the nothingness, that precedes the I AM. It is that which is not contingent on manifestation. Awareness and Manifestation rely on one another, but nothingness doesn't rely on anything.
It is a samadhi state. There are clearer descriptions in https://www.box.com/s/f86a921dfa62ccd0ca7b
In stage 4, one realizes that things do not arise out of some Absolute Source. In the absence of an absolute, the subject-object split starts to crumble, and one's sense of identity and sense of self changes as well. Selfing type phenomena still arise, however, they are not relegated a higher status relative to other phenomena.
In Stage 4, one still has not overcome the idea of a Source, but it is now seen that consciousness/source is non-dual - without subject/object division, so completely inseparable from all manifestation. But it is not the realization of no agent or no subject.
It is the 'substantial nonduality' of http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2011/08/substantial-and-insubstantial-non.html
Is MCTB 4th path equivalent to Stage 4? Are there other practices besides noting that lead directly to Stage 4? What is the experience of stage 4 characterized by: sensory clarity, brightness, a feeling of spaciousness?
MCTB 4th path is beyond stage 4, it is one aspect of Stage 5 but not its entirety. For example, it is skewed to Thusness's first stanza of anatta, but missing the second stanza. While AF (also beyond stage 4) is about the second stanza of anatta, but overlooking the first stanza. (Stanzas: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html) My comments on AF: http://www.box.net/shared/sbyi64jrms
Practices that lead to Stage 4 include contemplating on the 2nd stanza, Advaita contemplations like Greg Goode's 'Direct Path', challenging the sense of inside/outside, subject/object, objectivity, investigating the seamlessness of awareness and manifestation (where does awareness end and manifestation begin) etc.
Stage 4 is characterized by the dissolution of subject/object division into an undivided luminosity by the realization of no subject/object division, there is total intimacy, sensory clarity, brightness, feeling of spaciousnessness altogether but most important factor is there is no more observer-observed dichotomy - that dichotomy is seen through to be delusional. No longer is Awareness seen as an eternal Witness behind thoughts and phenomena, but the Witness-witnessed has collapsed into one seeing, one awareness.
Questions about Stage 5: If one has realized stage 4, what is the best method for proceeding onto the realization of Anatta? Is how one proceeds affected by whether one has also had I AM realizations?
Contemplating on bahiya sutta, contemplating on Thusness's stanza, etc.
One who realizes anatta will have accessed both stanzas of anatta somewhat but there is a skewing depending on his conditions. One who had I AM realization previously, the second stanza becomes very apparent while one progresses by looking into first stanza and then emptiness. One who does not have I AM realization and realizes anatta through vipassana/etc, the first stanza becomes very apparent first while the second stanza becomes more apparent as a later progression.
Questions about Stage 6: Is the realization of emptiness the same as the realization of dependent origination?
Yes, but there are two aspects. Realizing d.o./emptiness as the empty, illusory nature of all appearances, and having realized D.O. leading to the experience of total exertion (Maha). Both are important.
This issue is discussed in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2011/03/realization-experience-and-right-view.html
Questions about Stage 7: Is this the point when maha is realized?
Maha is related to stage 6.
Thusness: "Exertion is after the realization of seamless interdependence, the practitioner feels the universe giving its best to make this moment possible. Read the dogen of rolling the boat."
Dogen: "Birth is just like riding in a boat. You raise the sails, row with the oar, and steer. Although you row, the boat gives you a ride, and without the boat you couldn't ride. But you ride in the boat and your riding makes the boat what it is… When you ride in a boat, your body and mind and the environs together are the undivided activity of the boat. The entire earth and the entire sky are both the undivided activity of the boat."
"With going the boundless sky goes, with coming the entire earth comes. This is everyday mind."
Thomas Cleary: "The passage from the Blue Cliff Record alludes to the Kegon doctrine that phenomena do not exist individually but interdependently, that the manifold depends on the unit and the unit on the manifold. A refinement of this principle in Kegon philosophy is called the mystery of principal and satellites: this means that every element in a conditional nexus can be looked upon as the hub, or "principal," whereupon all the other elements become the cooperative conditions, or "satellites"-hence all elements are at once "principal" and "satellite" to all other elements. It is the mutuality, the complementarity, of the elements which makes them functionally what they are. Dogen presents this idea by likening life to riding in a boat-one is naught without the boat, yet it is one's riding in it that makes it in effect a "boat." Furthermore, "the boat is the world-even the sky, the water, and the shore are circumstances of the boat. . . . The whole earth and all of space are workings of the boat." " -
They talk about I am, I thought it is a christian saying?
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It is a universal realization, in Hinduism you find that also, in Islamic sufism (a mystical contemplative tradition) there is such realization in their contemplatives as well. Judaism Kabbalah, Taoist mysticism, etc.. as well.
In an early Christian, non-canonical, gnostic gospel - Gospel of Thomas, you hear Jesus describing this universal mystical realization:
77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
This is also as described in 1) Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
And in Hinduism it also mentioned:
Him the sun does not illumine, nor the moon, nor the stars, nor the
lightning--nor, verily, fires kindled upon the earth. He is the one light
that gives light to all. He shines; everything shines.
Hinduism. Katha Upanishad 5.15; Mundaka Upanishad 2.2.10;
Svetavatara Upanishad 6.14
Brahma is the Light of lights.
He is Self-luminous.
He is Supreme Light.
He is ultimate light.
He is an embodiment of Light.
By His Light all else shines.13- Brahmarahasya Upanishad
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An Eternal Now,
Thank you very much for your reply. It was very helpful and clear. I read through all of the links you provided, which has helped clarified a few things. I very much like your blog and book and really appreciate all the info they both provide. Some of it is difficult to understand as I am not familiar with a lot of the terminology and come from a different insight background which explains things differently. I think this is why I am confused about certain terms and other details. However, I really do appreciate that your material deals with insight beyond what the traditions I am familiar with refer to as awakening. That said, I still have a couple more things which aren't fully clear.
In Stage 4, one still has not overcome the idea of a Source, but it is now seen that consciousness/source is non-dual - without subject/object division, so completely inseparable from all manifestation. But it is not the realization of no agent or no subject.
MCTB 4th path is beyond stage 4, it is one aspect of Stage 5 but not its entirety.
I am a little confused by this. Isn't seeing that consciousness/source is non-dual without subject/object division the realization of MCTB 4th path and therefore stage 4? Also, as I understand it, stage 4&5 are sort of on a continuum for the realization of Anatta. Stage 4 is a partial realization of Anatta in that one no long perceives a subject/object divison, yet one lacks the realization of no agency and no doership. Is this correct? Also, is the realization of no agency separate than the realization of no doership or do they both occur simultaneously?
While AF (also beyond stage 4) is about the second stanza of anatta, but overlooking the first stanza.
Can you expand on this a bit? I thought AF was essentially stage 5.
Contemplating on bahiya sutta, contemplating on Thusness's stanza, etc.
Thanks. As I understand it, I believe I have realized non-duality. This occured 3 months ago and I am therefore interested in how to realize Anatta.
So my intention is to contemplate on Thusness' stanza:
- There is thinking, no thinker
There is hearing, no hearer
There is seeing, no seer
In thinking, just thoughts
In hearing, just sounds
In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors.I am going to focus on the first part. I have never really done contemplation before. Is there a preferred posture for doing it? Can it be done while doing activities? Does it matter if eyes are open or closed?
Also, I understand that meditation is still a very worthwhile practice and should be done in addition to contemplation. Do you have any suggested forms of meditation I should pursue?
Lastly, in my everyday life while doing normal activities, I often notice a lot of sensory clarity and really tune into the sensate world. I assume this is supportive of realization and I will continue to do so, perhaps asking HAIETMOBA on occassion. Is this good? Or is it simply better to recall and contemplate Thusness' stanza instead of asking HAIETMOBA?
Thank you very much for your help. It really is greatly appreciated.
- There is thinking, no thinker
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I am a little confused by this. Isn't seeing that consciousness/source is non-dual without subject/object division the realization of MCTB 4th path and therefore stage 4?
Not just that. Dharma Dan is very clear that consciousness is not some source, substratum, Self, agent, watcher, observer, etc. He sees only arising and passing sensations. See http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2009/09/rigpa-and-aggregates.html - that was written by Daniel before he knew about AF.
Also, as I understand it, stage 4&5 are sort of on a continuum for the realization of Anatta.
No. In Stage 4, only the non-division of subject and object is clear. Anatta, no agent, is not clear.
This is why in Stage 4, one is still understanding no-self through Self. In other words, one sees a metaphysical essence, an unchanging, independent Self/Awareness that is inseparable with all its display. So it is the Self/Awareness 'expressing itself inseparably as' appearances rather than standing behind, watching its play.
Stage 4 is a partial realization of Anatta in that one no long perceives a subject/object divison, yet one lacks the realization of no agency and no doership.
Non doership is not the same as no agency. Non doership can be experienced even in Stage 1, which I had. But no agency is only realized in Stage 5.
Is this correct? Also, is the realization of no agency separate than the realization of no doership or do they both occur simultaneously?
Separate. But when you get to Stage 5, all the three aspects (no agent, no division, non doership) are seen concurrently.
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Written in my e-book:
Non-doership is not the same as realizing no agent. Many people see that there is a Self, and yet that Self has no control over phenomena. This is my understanding in the I AMness phase of insight, for example. Or even further, the construct of personality dissolves and one feels like one is being lived by a higher power or source. But even this is not the insight or experience of anatta.
Yesterday, someone asked me “It is seen that all action is occuring spontaneously, effortlessly …what is different? (From the realization of anatta)”
I replied:
“Hi, what you spoke of is not what I meant by anatta… perhaps this might be relevant:
(What Thusness wrote to me at my earlier phase of insight):
Also what you said about the no observer can be quite misleading. It does not mean there is ‘no one doing anything’ and ‘everything is arising spontaneously’. You should understand anatta from below quotations taken from ‘The Sun My Heart’ by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh:
(Excerpt from: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/10/... )
“Sunshine and Green Leaves
“When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don’t think that there is something blowing something else. “Wind’ goes with ‘blowing’. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. ‘To know’ is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, ‘Wind,’ and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing’.”
”..The most universal verb is the verb ‘to be’’: I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb ‘to be’ does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say ‘become.’ These two verbs can also be used as nouns: ‘being”, “becoming”. But being what? Becoming what? ‘Becoming’ means ‘evolving ceaselessly’, and is as universal as the verb “to be.” It is not possible to express the “being” of a phenomenon and its “becoming” as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming….”
“In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard ‘knowing’ as something from the outside which comes to breath life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one.”“
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Can you expand on this a bit? I thought AF was essentially stage 5.
Conversation in 2010:
(2:38 PM) Thusness: the only point lacking in AF is the realization of 'process'-based understanding
(2:40 PM) AEN: what do u mean by process based understanding
(2:41 PM) Thusness: understanding reality as a flow
not entity
(2:45 PM) AEN: oic.. but AF doesnt understand reality as an entity right
(2:45 PM) Thusness: yes but there is a difference
(2:46 PM) Thusness: no-subject is directly understood as this flow...
(2:46 PM) Thusness: which is quite clear in joan's article.
and in stainlessness and tata articles.
(2:47 PM) Thusness: as well as steven hagen
(2:47 PM) Thusness: means there is clarity in expression about this.
(2:49 PM) Thusness: Because in actual experience, it becomes very clear. If a practitioner were to explore further, it will not be difficult for him to realize the impact of 'view' on experience.Conversation in 2011:
(9:10 PM) Thusness: when u are able to mature the disjoint and unsupported experience then there is no holding to Awareness...it is just a word
what is actual is just simply this luminous activity
or ceaseless activity
(9:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:12 PM) Thusness: so u know what i meant about AF not talkin about liberation last time?
(9:12 PM) AEN: yeah
(9:12 PM) Thusness: it is more on stanza 2.
(9:13 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:13 PM) Thusness: direct apprehension...
fresh and blood of this body...
all these are trying to get grounded much like in the here and now
though tarin talk about that recently, i cannot see the clarity of insight
but i do not want u to go around making noise ...
(9:14 PM) AEN: haha
ok..
(9:14 PM) Thusness: u just have to 'taste' this directly
and realize whether it is true or not
only when a practitioner mature the 'disjoint' and 'unsupported' realization, the 'grounding' can then be gone
otherwise it is only 'talk'. :P
so u must realized it, have a glimpse of this truth, then u know the 'how' of proceeding -
In my e-book I also wrote: A few months later, even though it has been seen that ‘seeing is always the sights, sounds, colours and shapes, never a seer’, I began to notice this subtle remaining tendency to cling to a Here and Now. Somehow, I still want to return to a Here, a Now, like 'The actual world right here and now', which I can 'ground myself in', like I needed to ground in something truly existing, like I needed to return to being actual, here, now, whatever you want to call it. At that point when I detected this subtle movement I instantly recognised it to be illusory and dropped it, however I still could not find a natural resolution to that. Until, shortly maybe two weeks later, a deeper insight arose and I saw how Here/Now or something I can ground myself in doesn't apply when the "brilliant, self-luminous, vivid, alive, wonderful textures and forms and shapes and colours and details of the universe", all sense perceptions and thoughts, are in reality insubstantial, groundless, disjoint, unsupported and spontaneous, there was a deeper freedom and effortlessness. It is this insight into all as insubstantial, ephemeral, bubble-like, disjoint manifestations that allows this overcoming of a subtle view of something inherent. There is no observer observing something changing: simply that the "sensate world" is simply these disjoint manifestations without anything linking each sensation to another, without some inherent ground that could link manifestations, so manifestations are 'scattered' and disconnected. Somewhere around this time, Thusness wrote me a post in blog: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/02/putting-aside-presence-penetrate-deeply.html Prior to this insight, there wasn't the insight into phenomena as being 'scattered' without a linking basis (well there already was but it was not strong enough to remove the subtle view or construct of an inherent ground that remained)... the moment you say there is an ‘Actual World Here/Now’, or a Mind, or an Awareness, or a Presence that is constant throughout all experiences, that pervades and arise as all appearances, you have failed to see the 'no-linking', 'disjointed', 'unsupported' nature of manifestation – an insight which breaks a subtle clinging to an inherent ground, resulting in greater freedom.
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Can you describe your realization or have you written it somewhere before?Thanks. As I understand it, I believe I have realized non-duality. This occured 3 months ago and I am therefore interested in how to realize Anatta.
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I am going to focus on the first part. I have never really done contemplation before. Is there a preferred posture for doing it? Can it be done while doing activities? Does it matter if eyes are open or closed?
It can be done any time, anywhere. I contemplated on Bahiya Sutta and realized anatta when I was marching in basic military training. I have heard countless masters who attained enlightenment when hearing a sound, seeing something, all in a non-sitting setting.
Meditative posture is for the purpose of developing meditative samadhi. It is important for that purpose. But not exactly necessary for insight training. If I am doing sitting meditation I prefer to sit full lotus in sitting meditation with dhyana mudra, others find it preferable to sit half lotus. They are fine as long as your back is straight, mudra is right.
Also, I understand that meditation is still a very worthwhile practice and should be done in addition to contemplation. Do you have any suggested forms of meditation I should pursue?
Relaxed, non-dual opening to whatever arises.
Lastly, in my everyday life while doing normal activities, I often notice a lot of sensory clarity and really tune into the sensate world. I assume this is supportive of realization and I will continue to do so, perhaps asking HAIETMOBA on occassion. Is this good? Or is it simply better to recall and contemplate Thusness' stanza instead of asking HAIETMOBA?
Thank you very much for your help. It really is greatly appreciated.
HAIETMOBA is great. Thusness second stanza also has a similar effect to HAIETMOBA and results in PCE, but it also leads to a certain realization of anatta.
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Can you describe your realization or have you written it somewhere before?
Yes, I can try and describe it. However, the difficulty in describing it is that the apparent moment of realization came while I was taking a nap. After awaking from the nap, I was aware that something was different. This was in July of this year and whatever shift in perspective that took place then has stuck around.
So, looking over some of my notes from back then, what sticks out was this slightly poetic phrase to describe what had been realized: "experience is already intimate, always dancing." Somehow the apparent gap between experiencer and what is experienced seemed to fall away.
In the aftermath of the apparent realization, I was quite unsure about what had happened, and was uncertain if even anything had been realized. My doubts started to fall away as my experience continued. In addition, I also noticed that people from KFD who had realized MCTB 4th path often didn't recall a definitive moment when it occurred, and it was mostly confirmed by a feeling of being "off the ride." I had a similar sense of being finished with something, feeling less struggle to attain anything, but at the same time, I felt that there was more to do, more to realize. This sense of wanting to keep going was encouraged by some dreams and synchronicities.
I mention synchronicities as my main practice back then had been magick and meditation. Magick as a vehicle for awakening mainly focuses on employing techniques that are quite similar to guru yoga. Doing magick can also lead to a fair amount of synchronicities in daily life.
Also of a note and for some more backstory, I attained what is referred to as MCTB 1st path in March of 2011. This happened around the time of a Kundalini awakening and was at a time when I practiced noting. However, I evolved away from that practice shortly after.
I have had extensive experience with witness consciousness. There were two 7-10 day periods in 2011 where I was in continual witness consciousness. I mention this because what is going on now is very different from witness consciousness. With witness consciousness, it always felt like someone was looking through me, or that I was on the outside looking into reality through my eyes. It had a bit of a dissociative quality to it which I didn't like. However, this is not the case now. Whereas before with witness consciousness, it was like being in the outside looking in, now there's no sense of being an outsider or that awareness or consciousness of experience is separate from experience.
I hope this clarifies things. I'm not sure if any of this constitutes Non-duality or I AM or even anything at all. Whatever it is, I am keenly interested in refining and deepening my insight. This is why I have asked so many questions and feel so fortunate to have found the Awakening to Reality site and book.
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One thing I notice is that Kenneth's idea of technical 4th path is very different from Daniel's idea of it. Your Witness consciousness is related to I AM but not exactly the same as I AM realization - which is the realization and utter certainty of Being, one's Existence (as related to the first post: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html).
In any case, when you said: "
So, looking over some of my notes from back then, what sticks out was this slightly poetic phrase to describe what had been realized: "experience is already intimate, always dancing." Somehow the apparent gap between experiencer and what is experienced seemed to fall away.
In the aftermath of the apparent realization,"
This is certainly non-duality. However, you must also know that there is a difference between realization and experience. That means there is a difference between realizing that there is no experiencer apart from experience than it happening as a sort of peak experience or stage where the sense of an experiencer suddenly falls away. Without realization, the experience will not be effortless or seamless because the wrong view is obscuring perception like a magical spell.
As I said before,
First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically -
Dreams and syncronicities happen to me too. Teachers teach me in dreams, Thusness teach me in dreams (which he informs me that thats possible because of our karmic connection), dreams of future that happens accurately, etc. Lucid dreaming... etc. Entering pure presence in deep sleep... etc.
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I like LU's questions:
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that "pushed you over" and made you see through the illusion of self?If you truly realize no-self as a seal (not as some peak experience), then there is no problem answering these questions.
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One thing I notice is that Kenneth's idea of technical 4th path is very different from Daniel's idea of it.How so?I like LU's questionsHave people who claim to be liberated via LU's direct pointing completely realized anatta?If you truly realize no-self as a seal (not as some peak experience), then there is no problem answering these questions.I haven't realized no-self yet, so I can't really answer those questions. I've been doing very sincere contemplation of Thusness' stanza recently and will continue to do so in order to realize no-self.
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Originally posted by JohnKelly:How so?
Kenneth's technical 4th path has to do with completing a physio-energetic circuit (kundalini, energy, chi, etc) and feeling 'i'm done'. Nothing that he indicated in that description suggests any realization of no-self. Whatever understanding of no-self at that time is still dissociative and one is still a bystander watching phenomena as not-self. (More info: http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+Progress+of+Insight+%28Part+One%29)
Whereas, Dharma Dan's 4th path has nothing to do with energy/circuit, just realizing anatta, no agent:
Since the topic has come up so often and been so bandied about so many times by so many people, let me state here what I mean by 4th path, regardless of what anyone else means by it. It has the following qualities:
1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.
2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.
3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.
4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it from 9 years ago.
5) There is nothing subtle about it: anything and everything that arises exhibits these same qualities directly, clearly. When I was third path, particularly late in it, those things that didn't exhibit these qualities were exceedingly subtle, and trying to find the gaps in the thing was exceedingly difficult and took years and many cycles. I had periods from weeks to months where it felt done and then some subtle exception would show up and I would realize I was wrong yet again, so this is natural and understandable, and if someone claims 4th as I define it here and later says they got it wrong, have sympathy for them, as this territory is not easy and can easily fool people, as it did me many, many times over about 5 years or so. However, 4th, as I term it, ended that and 9 years later that same thing holds, which is a very long time in this business.
There are other aspects that may be of value to discuss at some other time, but those are a great place to start for those who wish to claim this. If you truly have those, then perhaps we can talk about a few other points that are less central and essential.
Now, how there can still be affect (though quite modified in many ways) when there is centerlessness and agencylessness, this is a mystery to the AF kids and to me as well, and that brings me to my next point: there seems to be areas of development depending on what you look for and aim for that may arise independently, and not everything seems to come as a package necessarily. Those things are what I looked for really hard for about 7 years, and that is what I found. Now I find that the interest in the unraveling of what drives that residual affect is arising, and so that investigation happens on its own also.
Perhaps people will find this helpful in some way.Have people who claim to be liberated via LU's direct pointing completely realized anatta?It depends. If you have read my article http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2011/12/experience-realization-view-practice.html , you should know that there are different degrees/faces of self/Self or no-self.In many cases that I see in LU, their so called "insight of no self" is only non-doership or impersonality. This is not even I AM realization yet! They know nothing about non-duality or anatta. That is why for many, their progress after 'entering the gate' through LU is to go into I AMness.
Yet, some people in LU are talking about I AM. Some are talking about One Mind/non dual - even non dual realization requires a direct insight that there is no separate self or watcher, but it still sinks back into some metaphysical unified Self - therefore as Thusness said, 'understanding no-self through Self'. Only very few are talking about anatta. In fact very rarely or hardly do you see people have clarity on that. Thusness and I reckon that only a number of people which can be counted by the fingers truly realized non dual and higher at that place.Because their founder, Ciaran, despite having some insight into anatta and no-agent, has no clarity about the difference faces of self/no-self, his students also lack this clarity. They land into very different territories and get 'confirmed' too easily after having some experineces without knowing exactly what they have seen and the big picture of it.I haven't realized no-self yet, so I can't really answer those questions. I've been doing very sincere contemplation of Thusness' stanza recently and will continue to do so in order to realize no-self.This is good. -
AEN, all your responses answered my questions. Thank you! It is very much appreciated.
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np. sent you something on PM