12 dependent originations
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Hi just to ask a question here about something that puzzled me abit...
From the Phagguna sutta : quote
"Through the complete fading away and cessation of even these six bases of sense-impression, sense-impression ceases;[8] through the cessation of sense-impression, feeling ceases; through the cessation of feeling, craving ceases; through the cessation of craving, clinging ceases; through the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases; through the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases; through the cessation of birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering."
Does it mean that for suffering to cease, all the 6 bases of sense impression must cease? We know from the teachings that it is not the 6 sense objects that is the problem but the clinging that cause samsara.
Or does the definition of cessation of suffering in this model given by Buddha in the Phagguna sutta relate to the extreme of nirvana only? Because Bodhisattvas do not cling to either nirvana or samsara.
Anyone who knows, please explain, thanks!!
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According to Buddha mentioned in the sutra, the 6 bases of sense impression is originated from the 6 sense subjects while in contact with 6 sense objects. Non clingling is not without compassion so that you don't succumb into nihilism. The six sense impression in Theravada is to be ceased but not without compassion as mentioned, and the six sense impression in Mahayana is transformation into compassion in its purity liken to mirror. _()_
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There are three ways of understanding dependent origination.
The classic, commentarial explanation as well as some of the suttas is 3 lifetimes. There are nowadays also the two lifetimes, one life explanation.
In 3 life explanation, sense base does not cease - they continue to manifest due to old causes, but will cease upon death.
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Bhikkhu Bodhi: This passage shows the arahant's abiding in the Nibbana element with a residue remaining (of the factors of conditioned existence, sa-upadisesa nibbanadhatu). Though he continues to experience feelings, he is free from lust towards pleasant feeling, from aversion towards painful feeling, and from ignorance about neutral feeling.
MN 141:
22. “He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness… to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned.’ He does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains NibbÄ�na. He understands thus: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’
23. “If he feels a pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’ If he feels a painful feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’ If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’
24. “If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’ Bhikkhu, just as an oil-lamp burns in dependence on oil and a wick, and when the oil and wick are used up, if it does not get any more fuel, it is extinguished from lack of fuel; so too when he feels a feeling terminating with the body…a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’
25. “Therefore a bhikkhu possessing [this wisdom] possesses the supreme foundation of wisdom. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble wisdom, namely, the knowledge of the destruction of all suffering.
26. “His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature – NibbÄ�na. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing [this truth] possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, NibbÄ�na, which has a undeceptive nature.
27. “Formerly, when he was ignorant, he undertook and accepted acquisitions; now he has abandoned them, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, done away with them so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing [this relinquishment] possesses the supreme foundation of relinquishment. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble relinquishment, namely, the relinquishing of all acquisitions.
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Originally posted by Dharmadhatu:
Hi just to ask a question here about something that puzzled me abit...
From the Phagguna sutta : quote
"Through the complete fading away and cessation of even these six bases of sense-impression, sense-impression ceases;[8] through the cessation of sense-impression, feeling ceases; through the cessation of feeling, craving ceases; through the cessation of craving, clinging ceases; through the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases; through the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases; through the cessation of birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering."
Does it mean that for suffering to cease, all the 6 bases of sense impression must cease? We know from the teachings that it is not the 6 sense objects that is the problem but the clinging that cause samsara.
Or does the definition of cessation of suffering in this model given by Buddha in the Phagguna sutta relate to the extreme of nirvana only? Because Bodhisattvas do not cling to either nirvana or samsara.
Anyone who knows, please explain, thanks!!
"Through the complete fading away and cessation of even these six bases of sense-impression”
Note 2 on this sutta refer to this statement as the moment of the Awakening, when the six sense media are transcended. In AN 4.174 it is stated as; there is no more objectification or non-objectification involved, i.e. ‘I am the thinker’ is no more there. That is when feeling, craving, clinging and eventually becoming also ceased.
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Geoff/Nana/Jnana explanation on viññÄ�ṇaṃ anidassanaṃ:
"As for anidassana, in this context I'm liking the translation as "non-illustrative" or "non-indicative." "Non-illustrative" in the sense of the term as used in MN 21 KakacÅ«pama Sutta: Ä�kÄ�so arÅ«pÄ« anidassano, the sky is formless and non-illustrative. "Non-indicative" in the sense of the term as used in the Abhidhammapiá¹aka, where the applications of mindfulness. etc., are said to be anidassana. The sense here being that they are not indicative of defilements, and so on.
Also cf. Ven. ÑÄ�ṇananda, NibbÄ�na Sermon 07:
Now viññÄ�ṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is a reference to the nature of the released consciousness of an arahant. It does not reflect anything. To be more precise, it does not reflect a nÄ�ma-rÅ«pa, or name-and-form. An ordinary individual sees a nÄ�ma-rÅ«pa, when he reflects, which he calls 'I' and 'mine'. It is like the reflection of that dog, which sees its own delusive reflection in the water. A non-arahant, upon reflection, sees name-and-form, which however he mistakes to be his self. With the notion of 'I' and 'mine' he falls into delusion with regard to it. But the arahant's consciousness is an unestablished consciousness.
We have already mentioned in previous sermons about the established consciousness and the unestablished consciousness. A non-arahant's consciousness is established on name-and-form. The unestablished consciousness is that which is free from name-and-form and is unestablished on name-and-form. The established consciousness, upon reflection, reflects name-and-form, on which it is established, whereas the unestablished consciousness does not find a name-and-form as a reality. The arahant has no attachments or entanglements in regard to name-and-form. In short, it is a sort of penetration of name-and-form, without getting entangled in it. This is how we have to unravel the meaning of the expression anidassana viññÄ�ṇa.
All the best,
Geoff" -
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Saketa at Kalaka's park. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!"
"Yes, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata[1] it has not been established.[2]
"If I were to say, 'I don't know whatever in the cosmos... is seen, heard, sensed, cognized... pondered by the intellect,' that would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say, 'I both know and don't know whatever in the cosmos... is seen, heard, sensed, cognized... pondered by the intellect,' that would be just the same. If I were to say, 'I neither know nor don't know whatever in the cosmos... is seen, heard, sensed, cognized... pondered by the intellect,' that would be a fault in me.
"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer.
"When hearing...
"When sensing...
"When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer.
Thus, monks, the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime.
"Whatever is seen or heard or sensed and fastened onto as true by others, One who is Such — among the self-fettered — wouldn't further claim to be true or even false. "Having seen well in advance that arrow where generations are fastened & hung — 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' — there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened."Provenance:©2002 Thanissaro Bhikkhu.Transcribed from a file provided by the translator.This Access to Insight edition is ©2002–2012.Terms of use: You may copy, reformat, reprint, republish, and redistribute this work in any medium whatsoever, provided that: (1) you only make such copies, etc. available free of charge; (2) you clearly indicate that any derivatives of this work (including translations) are derived from this source document; and (3) you include the full text of this license in any copies or derivatives of this work. Otherwise, all rights reserved. For additional information about this license, see the FAQ.How to cite this document (one suggested style): "Kalaka Sutta: At Kalaka's Park" (AN 4.24), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 12 February 2012, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.024.than.html . Retrieved on 3 October 2012. -
Originally posted by Dharmadhatu:
Hi just to ask a question here about something that puzzled me abit...
From the Phagguna sutta : quote
"Through the complete fading away and cessation of even these six bases of sense-impression, sense-impression ceases;[8] through the cessation of sense-impression, feeling ceases; through the cessation of feeling, craving ceases; through the cessation of craving, clinging ceases; through the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases; through the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases; through the cessation of birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering."
Does it mean that for suffering to cease, all the 6 bases of sense impression must cease? We know from the teachings that it is not the 6 sense objects that is the problem but the clinging that cause samsara.
Or does the definition of cessation of suffering in this model given by Buddha in the Phagguna sutta relate to the extreme of nirvana only? Because Bodhisattvas do not cling to either nirvana or samsara.
Anyone who knows, please explain, thanks!!
This is an interesting sutta quote on Dependent Cessation as opposed to origination. I have a feeling that the cessation of feeling only happens to an arahant at death or in life during deep meditative states as in nirodha sammapatti.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html
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Originally posted by Dharmadhatu:
Hi just to ask a question here about something that puzzled me abit...
From the Phagguna sutta : quote
"Through the complete fading away and cessation of even these six bases of sense-impression, sense-impression ceases;[8] through the cessation of sense-impression, feeling ceases; through the cessation of feeling, craving ceases; through the cessation of craving, clinging ceases; through the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases; through the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases; through the cessation of birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering."
Does it mean that for suffering to cease, all the 6 bases of sense impression must cease? We know from the teachings that it is not the 6 sense objects that is the problem but the clinging that cause samsara.
Or does the definition of cessation of suffering in this model given by Buddha in the Phagguna sutta relate to the extreme of nirvana only? Because Bodhisattvas do not cling to either nirvana or samsara.
Anyone who knows, please explain, thanks!!
This is an interesting sutta quote on Dependent Cessation as opposed to origination. I have a feeling that the cessation of feeling only happens to an arahant at death or in life during deep meditative states as in nirodha sammapatti.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html
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Thanks for all the quotations and answers. It is quite interesting. Buddhas have definitely ended all sufferings and they still have sense-perceptions etc. For there to be omniscience, surely one needs to have sense perceptions etc. that is far beyond ordinary sense-perceptions.
But in other explanations, the five aggregates have been transmuted into the five wisdoms. So the presentation there is different.
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can look into �闻觉知 which is different from �想行识. in Mahayana, it's transformed into wisdom.
sentient beings are �想行识. when Enlightented become �闻觉知.
净空法师:è§�闻觉知是真æ£çš„性德
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ps: kind of think of it, attachement is sentient being, when Enlightened it become mindfulness.