Good article - http://sasanarakkha.org/dhamma/2007/03/merits-can-they-be-transferred.html
Loppon Malcolm : http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6782&start=80 spanda wrote:
Regarding the dedication of merit to others, the Dhammapada v.165 states:
By oneself is evil alone; by oneself is one defiled.
By oneself is evil left defiled; by oneself alone is one made pure.
Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.
So how does dedicating one's own merit to others actually going to benefit them? Besides, if merits can be transferred, it would contradict another important Buddhist teaching, the working of kamma.
On the other hand, the Nidhikanda Sutta in Khuddakapatha states that:
As river, when full must flow and reach and fill the distant main,
so indeed what is given here will reach and bless the spirits there.
As water poured on mountain top must soon descend and fill the plain,
so indeed what is given here will reach and bless the spirits there.
In the Mahayanist tradition, those who are reborn in the lower realms are still able to receive the merits from their loved ones living in human realm, but only possible through the grace and assistance of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva. Any direct transference from a living relative would not be effective for those who have been reborn. It is an indirect transfer of merit through the devotion, homage and ritual performed in honour of the Bodhisattva. Direct transference of merit from a living relative to a deceased is only possible within 49 days of death and yet to be reborn.
So this topic of the ‘transference of merit’ is certainly open to scholarly debate.
My personal believes is that, good deeds or 'acts of merit' bring happiness to the doer both in this world and in the hereafter. It can only benefits the other party only if the living or deceased person in which it is dedicated to is aware of the act or wish, then only can a mutual 'rejoicing in' merit takes place. But how can a deceased person be aware of such offering? Personally, I do have my doubt that it can be transferred to a deceased person.
But again, it is a nice thought that merits can be transferred. So pick whichever choose that you feel comfortable and good with.
not only for deceased. Buddhists should also help their parents to accumulate merits with strong dedications. Especially if parents are not practising. This is very important. Due to strong karmic connection between parents and children, the dedication can function even better.
Originally posted by mr music:“Direct transference of merit from a living relative to a deceased is only possible within 49 days of death and yet to be reborn.”
I didnt know of the above and I always thought the deceased can still receive the merits even if they are reincarnated. I suppose my grandparents, who died many years ago, will not be able to receive the merits I transfer to her by chanting Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva sutra?
I heard that if I burn offerings to the deceased but if they are already reincarnated, it will become winings in 4D or TOTO when they buy in their next life.
The reason why it is important to dedicate merits within 49 days is that it will help the deceased to be reborn in Pureland or 3 upper realms (heaven, human, demi-god). It is still effective to dedicate the merits to the deceased after 49 days but it is to help them live better in the realm they had already reborn in. This is my understanding.
2 of my friends whose loved ones had passed away recently. Their loved ones were not practicing Buddhists. However, my friends are practicing Buddhists and they chanted and dedicated the merits to their loved ones when they passed away. They went to draw lots at the Waterloo Street Guanyin Temple to know the whereabouts of their loved ones. Both of them drew the same lot (Lot 80 if I remember correctly) which could not be coincident. The lots said that their loved ones were reborn in heaven.
Regarding offerings to the deceased, there was once someone asked me why Eastern spirits need offerings, what about the western spirits? Can anyone answer this question? I guess it got to do with different culture. Do the spirits really take the offerings? I've really no idea but according to people with 3rd eyes, they said yes.
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:The reason why it is important to dedicate merits within 49 days is that it will help the deceased to be reborn in Pureland or 3 upper realms (heaven, human, demi-god). It is still effective to dedicate the merits to the deceased after 49 days but it is to help them live better in the realm they had already reborn in. This is my understanding.
2 of my friends whose loved ones had passed away recently. Their loved ones were not practicing Buddhists. However, my friends are practicing Buddhists and they chanted and dedicated the merits to their loved ones when they passed away. They went to draw lots at the Waterloo Street Guanyin Temple to know the whereabouts of their loved ones. Both of them drew the same lot (Lot 80 if I remember correctly) which could not be coincident. The lots said that their loved ones were reborn in heaven.
I believe merits can be transferred.
Maybe not all agree on the term purify... i think for me dilute is better term
the good karma can dilute the evil one... unless the good is greater than the evil
Originally posted by Dharmadhatu:not only for deceased. Buddhists should also help their parents to accumulate merits with strong dedications. Especially if parents are not practising. This is very important. Due to strong karmic connection between parents and children, the dedication can function even better.
yes... couldn't agree more... my parents don't know buddhism... and i'm afraid of the 3 evil paths they will fall
Loppon Namdrol says however:
Sherab wrote:spanda wrote:...Therefore I wonder, is really impossible to take someone else karma, or it is possible in exceptional cases?
My speculation:
Enlightened beings can take away the karma that you have already created but they cannot stop you from creating new karma. Without the stopping of creation of new karma, taking away karma already created is ultimately an exercise in futility.
Quite impossible, from a Buddhist pov.
However, in Hinduism, Jivanmuktis are considered able to accomplish this feat.
------------------------------
Sherab wrote:However, all theses anecdotes do not square with what I was taught about karma .. that it cannot be taken away by someone else. But I think the suttas and sutras are silent about this. So what I've stated in my previous post is my way of resolving the impasse.
spanda wrote:
Could someone explain me, what exactly Milarepa did? Was Milarepa capable (if he wanted) to take someones else's suffering? If yes, this mean that he could "take"/reduce someone else karma?
AlexanderS wrote:Is negative karma cannot be taken, how can merit then be giving and shared?
dakini_boi wrote:What about the case of a Buddha liberating demons? While not exactly taking on their karma, if a Buddha can actually liberate them, then their karma is completely dismantled.
xabir wrote:So the story in the sutras about mogallana saving his mother in hell by dedicating merits have no basis in dharma at all?Namdrol wrote:Merit is not shared in a real sense, but by sharing your merit you create much more for yourself.
Also, "according to the Sutra of The Great Vows of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva, one can "transfer" 1/7 merit of an act they have performed to a deceased loved one"... You think this is not true?
kirtu wrote:
The suttas referenced wrt merit transfer for dead relatives are the Sigaloavada Sutta, Tirokudda Kanda Sutta, and the Janussonin Sutta.
Sherab wrote:Namdrol wrote:The idea that Buddhas can take on the karma of sentient beings is the worst sort of theistic thinking.
Assertion like this without providing explanations does not help move a discussion forward to a resolution and is merely an attempt to impose a particular viewpoint. And I think no one here is really referring to the action karma or any latency but to the manifested results.
Sherab wrote:
I've asked for quotations to show that manifested results cannot be remove from a being by another...
I'm thinking the only possible way for merit to be transferred is in fact not to transfer the merit, but the deceased relative (in this case, a spirit)'s conscious recognition and gladful acceptance of such a deed, since that would amount in effect to partaking in the deed itself.
thanks...
that means it's up to oneself to accept the Maha or Thera tradition??
Loppon Namdrol comes from the Mahayana/Vajrayana tradition and yet he does not seem to accept transference of merit in the strict sense.
I guess different people have different ideas about it. The Pali suttas however does not appear to have a firm basis that supports literal transference of merit...
In fact it would seem that the Buddha had explicitly rejected the notion that merits could be literally transferred:
For example, NidhiKanda Sutta (Khp 8) mentions that the kusala/wholesome things that we do are not common to other people, i.e. they cannot be shared. In Culasaccaka Sutta (MN 35), a person engaged in a debate wth the Buddha. When he lost, he was sporting enough to invite the Buddha and the Sangha for dana. He also invited his supporters to give him offerings so that he could offer them at the dana. After dana, he dedicated the merits attained to all those who have participated in the offering. The Buddha then told him that the merit gained by his supporters when they gave the food to an unpurified person like him would be for themselves whereas the different type of merit that he gained when he offered it to a purified person like the Buddha was accrued to himself only. Here, the Buddha appears to be saying that merits cannot be shared.
About taking other peoples' karma, i believe it can be done. But it is no use arguing whether it can be or not. Whether you think can or not does not affect your practice. Just practice hard and adopt wisely in cause-and-effect.
Originally posted by Dharmadhatu:
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
For example, NidhiKanda Sutta (Khp 8) mentions that the kusala/wholesome things that we do are not common to other people, i.e. they cannot be shared. In Culasaccaka Sutta (MN 35), a person engaged in a debate wth the Buddha. When he lost, he was sporting enough to invite the Buddha and the Sangha for dana. He also invited his supporters to give him offerings so that he could offer them at the dana. After dana, he dedicated the merits attained to all those who have participated in the offering. The Buddha then told him that the merit gained by his supporters when they gave the food to an unpurified person like him would be for themselves whereas the different type of merit that he gained when he offered it to a purified person like the Buddha was accrued to himself only. Here, the Buddha appears to be saying that merits cannot be shared.
I tried to search for the Culasaccaka Sutta but only found this below ending to the sutta... is there any other version? I could not find the part about Buddha's discourse on merits...
Then Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha knowing that the Blessed One had accepted addressed the Licchavis: Good Licchavis, listen. I have invited the Blessed One and the Community of bhikkhus for tomorrow’s meal. Bring what ever you think is suitable. Then those Licchavis at the end of that night brought five hundred bowls filled with cooked rice. Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha too caused to prepare plenty of nourishing eatables and drinks in his own monastery, and informed the time to the Blessed One: Good Gotama, it is time, the food is ready. Then the Blessed One putting on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes, approached the monastery of Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha and sat on the prepared seat together with the Community of bhikkhus. Then Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha with his own hands offered plenty of nourishing eatables and drinks to the Community of bhikkhus headed by the Enlightened One. Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha saw that the Blessed One had finished taking the meal and had put away the bowl, then he took a low seat sat on a side, and said to the Blessed One. May the excellent merits of this offering, be to those givers. Aggivessana, may merits accured from offerings made to you, not free from greed, hate and delusion, be to the givers. May merits accured from making offerings to me, free of greed, hate and delusion,(*3) be to you.. .
That translation is faulty. Let me copy for you the "definitive" (or widely recognized definitive translation) Majjhima Nikaya translation (which I have read bottom to end 1367 pages not counting glossary/index) by Bhikkhu Bodhi, now placed neatly near Buddha's statue in consideration of Dharmapala's dream admonition
"28. Then, knowing that the Blessed One had consented, Saccaka the Nigantha's son addressed the Licchavis: "Hear me, Licchavis. The recluse Gotama together with the Sangha of good bhikkhus has been invited by me for tomorrow's meal. you may bring to me whatever you think would be suitable for him.
29. Then, when the night had ended, the Licchavis brought five hundred ceremonial dishes of milk rice as gifts of food. Then Saccaka the Nigantha's son had good food of various kinds prepared in his own park and had the time announced to the Blessed One: "It is time, Master Gotama, the meal is ready."
30. Then, it being morning, the Blessed One dressed, and taking his bowl and outer robe, he went with the Sangha of bhikkhus to the park of Saccaka the Nigantha's son and sat down on the seat made ready. Then, with his own hands, Saccaka the Nigantha's son served and satisfied the Sangha of bhikkhus headed by the Buddha with the various kinds of good food. When the Blessed One had eaten and had put his bowl aside, Saccaka the Nigantha's son took a low seat, sat down at one side, and said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, may the merit and the great meritorious fruits of this act of giving be for the happiness of the givers."
"Aggivessana, whatever comes about from giving to a recipient such as yourself - one who is not free from lust, not free from hate, not free from delusion - [237] that will be for the givers. And whatever comes about from giving to a recipient such as myself - one who is free from lust, free from hate, free from delusion - that will be for you."^note 379
note 379: Though Saccaka admitted defeat in debate, he must have still considered himself a saint, and thus did not feel impelled to go for refuge to the Triple Gem. Also, because he continued to regard himself as a saint, he must have felt that it was not proper for him to dedicate the merit of the alms offering to himself, and thus he wished to dedicate the merit to the Licchavis. But the Buddha replies that the Licchavis will gain the merit of providing Saccaka with food to offer to the Buddha, while Saccaka himself will gain the merit of offering the food to the Buddha. The merit of giving alms differs in quality according to the purity of the recipient, as explained at MN 142.7.
is there a hidden/subtle meaning from the difference between the suttas and sutras...?
for example, Janussonin Sutta states that beings in certain realms cannot receive the merits, can it be due to 定业? it's like the sentient being have to suffer the bad karma 1st...
As for Ksitigarbha sutra, not just this sutra state it is possible to dedicate merit... in fact i think there are also other Maha sutras said it's possible... sorry i can't give the quotes now... Also, at the end of chanting or dharma talk, there will be a dedication of merits to all sentient beings... 愿以æ¤åŠŸå¾·ï¼Œ.....etc
Pls refer to Ksitigarbha Sutra. One part can be transferred to the deceased, 6 parts to the persons who perform the merit transferring tasks.
Pls read the whole sutra. Very interesting and insightful. You just need one 1 hour only.
Amituofo
rgds
Ksitigarbha Sutra was the questioned I posed personally to Loppon.
Originally posted by 2009novice:is there a hidden/subtle meaning from the difference between the suttas and sutras...?
for example, Janussonin Sutta states that beings in certain realms cannot receive the merits, can it be due to 定业? it's like the sentient being have to suffer the bad karma 1st...
As for Ksitigarbha sutra, not just this sutra state it is possible to dedicate merit... in fact i think there are also other Maha sutras said it's possible... sorry i can't give the quotes now... Also, at the end of chanting or dharma talk, there will be a dedication of merits to all sentient beings... 愿以æ¤åŠŸå¾·ï¼Œ.....etc
You weren't reading Janussonin Sutta properly.
Janussonin Sutta is saying you can offer food offerings to spirits. How do spirits 'eat'? They smell. Also, this is why in Mahayana Buddhism, there are certain practises where you can visualize and offer food for spirits, and the spirits can actually receive tangible benefits. They may even thank you in your dream. And if you visualize wrongly, they will complain to you in your dream. Yes my Master's student experienced this before (being distracted and visualizing a button, then the button became their food, so they complained to my Master).
See Loppon's commentary:
This sutras says that gifts made to one's ancestors who have been reborn as hell beings, animals, gods or human cannot be enjoyed by them. However, gifts made to hungary ghosts can be enjoyed by them. In all cases the donor enjoys the merit of the gift.
In all cases, the merits accrued is your own.
Originally posted by riccia1:Pls refer to Ksitigarbha Sutra. One part can be transferred to the deceased, 6 parts to the persons who perform the merit transferring tasks.
Pls read the whole sutra. Very interesting and insightful. You just need one 1 hour only.
Amituofo
rgds
Misdeeds cannot be washed away with water,
the suffering of living beings cannot be removed with the hand,
my realization cannot transferred to another,
but by showing the true nature of things, there will be liberation.
Merit is not shared in a real sense, but by sharing your merit you create much more for yourself.