One can't prove that God but science makes God unnecessary
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@BroInChrist
I appreciate your passion in Christ. I love him too. I personally think he is a Bodhisattva due to his wonderful actions. (That means he is a being on the verge of spiritual awakening and evidence of that is through his compassionate actions) With the deepest respect to you, it is pointless to keep quoting from the bible and telling us your Bible beliefs when obviously, we, Buddhists do not believe in it.
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Originally posted by Steveyboy:
@BroInChrist
I appreciate your passion in Christ. I love him too. I personally think he is a Bodhisattva due to his wonderful actions. (That means he is a being on the verge of spiritual awakening and evidence of that is through his compassionate actions) With the deepest respect to you, it is pointless to keep quoting from the bible and telling us your Bible beliefs when obviously, we, Buddhists do not believe in it.
Jesus once asked who people think He is. Many views were given, but only one was met with His approval and endorsement, that He is the Son of God, i.e. God Himself. Christ's revelation and claims for Himself is more important than what we like to think of Him as.
I quote the Bible to show that I am not making my own answers up. Truth be told, many Buddhists also quote chunks of Buddhist teachings for me even though I don't believe it. Is it pointless? Nope. At least I can read and evaluate them, even if I do not agree or believe them.
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In fact all of the Q posted by Bchrist can be found with great details in maha vaipulya buddhavatamsaka sutra. For example how something can be created out of nothingness, a gd example would be nuclear bomb, just imagine how a small piece of unstable element can be manipulated to release such a huge amt of energy, following this line of tots, u will understand, similiarly the invisible energy present in the nothingness can be gathered and cystallised into something touchable. So u give yrself and buddhism a chance, for a start u can read up maha vaipulya buddhavatamsaka sutra and make a comparsion yrself cos without some basic knowledge in buddhism, its very diificult to appreciate wat others tried to explain to u.
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Originally posted by jlowbog:
In fact all of the Q posted by Bchrist can be found with great details in maha vaipulya buddhavatamsaka sutra. For example how something can be created out of nothingness, a gd example would be nuclear bomb, just imagine how a small piece of unstable element can be manipulated to release such a huge amt of energy, following this line of tots, u will understand, similiarly the invisible energy present in the nothingness can be gathered and cystallised into something touchable.
So u give yrself and buddhism a chance, for a start u can read up maha vaipulya buddhavatamsaka sutra and make a comparsion yrself cos without some basic knowledge in buddhism, its very diificult to appreciate wat others tried to explain to u.
Urrmmm...the nuclear bomb has to be created. The elements has to be harnessed and manipulated to give the intended effect. All this requires intelligent causes. So I don't see how this example is evidenc that something can be created out of nothingness. The unstable elements already exists, the people who manipulate it also exists. Energy present in the nothingness? This statement is rather incoherent. Please explain.
I believe I have some basic understanding of Buddhism. And I certainly try to appreciate what is being said.
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yup...i do believe u have some basic understanding but the plm is..its not structured but bits n pieces of infos from the internet...as c u the plms with educated ppls r they like to quantify things which actually is not wrong but not complete...take for example 1+1=2 but if i said 1+1+1=infinity(from tao de jin) ppl cant accept. Buddha preaches the middle way...something n nothing always complemet each other, if u think something is something n nothing is nothing then u fall into 1 of the extreme sides... as i said check out maha vaipulya buddhavatamsaka sutra buddhism = greatest enjoyment of life. btw the developement of nuclear boomb was more of a experiment under the facade of ww2.
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Originally posted by jlowbog:
yup…i do believe u have some basic understanding but the plm is..its not structured but bits n pieces of infos from the internet…as c u the plms with educated ppls r they like to quantify things which actually is not wrong but not complete…take for example 1+1=2 but if i said 1+1+1=infinity(from tao de jin) ppl cant accept. Buddha preaches the middle way…something n nothing always complemet each other, if u think something is something n nothing is nothing then u fall into 1 of the extreme sides…
as i said check out maha vaipulya buddhavatamsaka sutra
buddhism = greatest enjoyment of life.btw the developement of nuclear boomb was more of a experiment under the facade of ww2.
It not about right, left or middle way. It is an issue of truth. Is the middle way the truth? It is not extreme to insist that 1+1=2, it is true. To say 1+1+1=infinity would be false. Because the answer cannot be both 3 and infinity at the same time in the same sense. Something and nothing does not complement each other, they are opposites! The problem is in thinking that something can comes from nothing by nothing.
One can say that Buddhism is greatest enjoyment of life. Another can say that Christianity provides that. So this cannot be used as a test of truth.
The nuclear (atomic) bomb was dropped in WW2. Anyway, the point was that the bomb or its effects was NOT an example of something coming from nothing.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
1. The eternal realms where God is, is not to be confused with the universe or cosmos which is what God created. One is spiritual and the other is material.
2. Since we are created in God's image, we do share God's Mind in some limited ways. We call this the communicable attributes of God. Atoms are not to be confused with Mind. The material is not to be confused with what is spiritual. They are distinct. We humans have minds because God created us that way with the faculties of self-reflection and self-awareness and self-consciousness.
3. Since humans have a beginning, as does the universe, and the Mind is the eternal God, samsara could not have been there in the beginning. Suffering was not present when God created the universe. It entered the world when man disobeyed God's command. So you are right, suffering is not supposed to be there. And it won't be there when God comes again to judge.
4. An analogy is simply to use real things to illustrate a point. I know you used it as an analogy. But the monkey trap product exists. I am just saying that your analogy is flawed. You like my bachelor's wife example? That was not an analogy at all. It was meant to expose illogical and meaningless questions, like "Who created God?"
The Nirvana "realm" where Buddha(s) are, is also not to be confused with the universe or cosmos or samsara which is what the unenlightened dwell. One is pure and the other is impure. even the word divine/heavenly in itself is still impure as there's pleasure in heaven. who ever has a discriminating thoughts of judging or wanting to control or create rules, that itself is impure mind at work. Nirvana realm is related to peacefulness, calm and blissfulness. not to be confuse with mere happiness.i do know atom is a matter. but to us that matter can also be created by the spiritual mind even with certain practice. Mind over matter. Buddha did performed that "miracle" when he was alive.
oh, so u see bachelor's wife as to expose illogical and meaningless questions, but i see a deeper meaning, i see the moon. hence very difficult.
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well if the nuclear bomb example was not clear enough...think abt the birth of a plaanet, an explosion is triggered...huge amt of energy n gases are released...they cool down giving birth to a new sys...this demonstrate something out of nothing n vice versa by the nuclear bomb example...as for the truth u r seeking, there is none cos everything is an illusion...
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Originally posted by Steveyboy:
@BroInChrist
I appreciate your passion in Christ. I love him too. I personally think he is a Bodhisattva due to his wonderful actions. (That means he is a being on the verge of spiritual awakening and evidence of that is through his compassionate actions) With the deepest respect to you, it is pointless to keep quoting from the bible and telling us your Bible beliefs when obviously, we, Buddhists do not believe in it.
Steveyboy has expressed my sentiments fully. And we don't mean we use Buddhist concepts to press you down too BIC. We are expressing our stance in Buddhism... That's all. Nothing dogmatic. Just the way it is.
And please... don't quote me back
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Originally posted by Steveyboy:
@BroInChrist
I appreciate your passion in Christ. I love him too. I personally think he is a Bodhisattva due to his wonderful actions. (That means he is a being on the verge of spiritual awakening and evidence of that is through his compassionate actions) With the deepest respect to you, it is pointless to keep quoting from the bible and telling us your Bible beliefs when obviously, we, Buddhists do not believe in it.
Bilble is utmost important to the christians. From there they learn about their God.
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This topic is provoking. Sure there will be christians get angry when reading it.
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Originally posted by TrueReppuzan:
the unsatisfactory arises and suffering begin? - That's B theory, but not true holistically.
When there is birth, there is aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Any questions?
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
The Nirvana realm where Buddha(s) are, is also not to be confused with the universe or cosmos or samsara which is what the unenlightened dwell. One is pure and the other is impure. even the word divine/heavenly in itself is still impure as there's pleasure in heaven. who ever has a discriminating thoughts of judging or wanting to control or create rules, that itself is impure mind at work. Nirvana realm is related to peacefulness, calm and blissfulness. not to be confuse with mere happiness.i do know atom is a matter. but to us that matter can also be created by the spiritual mind even with certain practice. Mind over matter. Buddha did performed that "miracle" when he was alive.
oh, so u see bachelor's wife as to expose illogical and meaningless questions, but i see a deeper meaning, i see the moon. hence very difficult.
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Lest Nirvana is mistaken to be a place by others: Nirvana is not a place but simply the cessation of the deluded mode of conceiving, Nirvana is the cessation, the termination, of all craving, aggression, and delusion, including all deluded conceivings or conceptual elaborations (prapancha). The Buddha's awareness is non-manifestive suchness, in which neither a seer nor an object being seen is conceived, instead there is only the suchness of in seeing just the seen, in hearing just the heard (see: kalaka sutta, bahiya sutta).
That sa�s�ra is nirv�ṇa is a major tenet of Mah�y�na philosophy. "Nothing of sa�s�ra is different from nirv�ṇa, nothing of nirv�ṇa is different from sa�s�ra. That which is the limit of nirv�ṇa is also the limit of sa�s�ra; there is not the slightest difference between the two." [1] And yet there must be some difference between them, for otherwise no distinction would have been made and there would be no need for two words to describe the same state. So N�g�rjuna also distinguishes them: "That which, taken as causal or dependent, is the process of being born and passing on, is, taken noncausally and beyond all dependence, declared to be nirv�ṇa." [2] There is only one reality -- this world, right here -- but this world may be experienced in two different ways. Sa�s�ra is the "relative" world as usually experienced, in which "I" dualistically perceive "it" as a collection of objects which interact causally in space and time. Nirv�ṇa is the world as it is in itself, nondualistic in that it incorporates both subject and object into a whole which, M�dhyamika insists, cannot be characterized (Chandrakīrti: "Nirv�ṇa or Reality is that which is absolved of all thought-construction"), but which Yog�c�ra nevertheless sometimes calls "Mind" or "Buddhanature," and so forth.
~ http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/david.htm -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
The Nirvana realm where Buddha(s) are, is also not to be confused with the universe or cosmos or samsara which is what the unenlightened dwell. One is pure and the other is impure. even the word divine/heavenly in itself is still impure as there's pleasure in heaven. who ever has a discriminating thoughts of judging or wanting to control or create rules, that itself is impure mind at work. Nirvana realm is related to peacefulness, calm and blissfulness. not to be confuse with mere happiness.i do know atom is a matter. but to us that matter can also be created by the spiritual mind even with certain practice. Mind over matter. Buddha did performed that "miracle" when he was alive.
oh, so u see bachelor's wife as to expose illogical and meaningless questions, but i see a deeper meaning, i see the moon. hence very difficult.
/\
Since AEN has mentioned that nirvana is not a place, I suppose to speak of it as a realm is also not correct? The Bible does not speak of heavenly joy as something impure. In fact, joy and rejoicing is something the Bible speaks about. But perhaps you have other meaning in mind when you think of the word "pleasures" in heaven?
We are in agreement that Mind precedes matter. God, who is spirit, spoke the universe (matter) into existence. So it wasn't something that come from nothing by nothing, it was something that come from nothing through the act of an eternal Being, God.
Asking who is the bachelor's wife IS a meaningless question, don't you agree? It's like asking whether you have ever seen a triangular-circle. You don't even try to think of the answer, you render the question as a meaningless one, or the questioner has some issues.
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Originally posted by jlowbog:
well if the nuclear bomb example was not clear enough…think abt the birth of a plaanet, an explosion is triggered…huge amt of energy n gases are released…they cool down giving birth to a new sys…this demonstrate something out of nothing n vice versa by the nuclear bomb example…as for the truth u r seeking, there is none cos everything is an illusion…
The nuclear bomb example was NOT a clear example of something coming from nothing. I think I have made that clear why.
Birth of a planet? No one has seen it or observed it happening. In any case, it doesn't prove your point because the universe is already there. Why not sum it up and take it at the level of the universe? Where did it come from?
You say there is no truth because everything is an illusion. Is that statement true? I hope you can see how you have just refuted yourself. It's shooting yourself in the foot, if you really think about what you said.
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Originally posted by 2009novice:
Steveyboy has expressed my sentiments fully. And we don't mean we use Buddhist concepts to press you down too BIC. We are expressing our stance in Buddhism... That's all. Nothing dogmatic. Just the way it is.
And please... don't quote me back
I certainly do not think that you are using Buddhist concepts to press me down. Like you , I am also expressing my stance in Christianity based on the Bible. Perhaps some do not like me to quote from the Bible? Anyway my point is that one should not take issue with me quoting Bible verses, just as I do not take issue with Buddhists quoting Buddhist teachings by various monks. (Though I would admit that having to read long passages of cut-&-paste Buddhist teachings can be quite a daunting task!) Surely It can't be the case that my quoting Bible verses got no point but your quoting of Buddhist teachings got point, right?
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Originally posted by SJS6638:
This topic is provoking. Sure there will be christians get angry when reading it.
Ummm...so far it seems I am the only one here, and I am certainly not angry. : D
I think it is OK for topics to be thought-provoking. Problem is when people with ill intent purposely provoke people with provoking words and does not keep words in check, like some trouble maker......
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what u think, we have about 28 realms of heavens.
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~alankhoo/DharmaRealm.htm#Deva
each happiness/joy/pleasure is double when you move up a heavenly level. like you have so much joy in the first heaven, but the joy of the second heaven is double that of the first level. and the joy of the third level is double that of the second. moreover, and the lifespan of the devas be it millions of light years or so is also double for each level.
they do have very very long life, however, there's an end to it, unlike what u all think is "eternal". they suffer, at the very last day of their "life" and "die" to another (lower)realms. that's change at work.
ps : we do have devas with the power to create rains/weather btw.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Since AEN has mentioned that nirvana is not a place, I suppose to speak of it as a realm is also not correct? The Bible does not speak of heavenly joy as something impure.
actually Nirvana is neither a place, nor not a place. it's meaningless to in place a meaning to it. :)kind of suit ur explaination of the somewhere ur God dwell, isn't it?. hmm..all i can say is when the mind is pure, the land is pure.
btw i say its a 'realm' or "eternal" are for explanation purpose or at "skillful mean" to suit your understanding. if one attached that it's a place and move into eternalsim, i'll say it's not. if one attached that it's not a place and go into nullism, i'll say it is. but both i will move on to say that it's neither. lest u attached to either.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Lest Nirvana is mistaken to be a place by others: Nirvana is not a place but simply the cessation of the deluded mode of conceiving, Nirvana is the cessation, the termination, of all craving, aggression, and delusion, including all deluded conceivings or conceptual elaborations (prapancha). The Buddha's awareness is non-manifestive suchness, in which neither a seer nor an object being seen is conceived, instead there is only the suchness of in seeing just the seen, in hearing just the heard (see: kalaka sutta, bahiya sutta).
That sa�s�ra is nirv�ṇa is a major tenet of Mah�y�na philosophy. "Nothing of sa�s�ra is different from nirv�ṇa, nothing of nirv�ṇa is different from sa�s�ra. That which is the limit of nirv�ṇa is also the limit of sa�s�ra; there is not the slightest difference between the two." [1] And yet there must be some difference between them, for otherwise no distinction would have been made and there would be no need for two words to describe the same state. So N�g�rjuna also distinguishes them: "That which, taken as causal or dependent, is the process of being born and passing on, is, taken noncausally and beyond all dependence, declared to be nirv�ṇa." [2] There is only one reality -- this world, right here -- but this world may be experienced in two different ways. Sa�s�ra is the "relative" world as usually experienced, in which "I" dualistically perceive "it" as a collection of objects which interact causally in space and time. Nirv�ṇa is the world as it is in itself, nondualistic in that it incorporates both subject and object into a whole which, M�dhyamika insists, cannot be characterized (Chandrakīrti: "Nirv�ṇa or Reality is that which is absolved of all thought-construction"), but which Yog�c�ra nevertheless sometimes calls "Mind" or "Buddhanature," and so forth.
~ http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/david.htm
It seems the concept of nirvana is one that cannot be explained. It seems in some sense to be a mental state. Yet in some sense it is not.http://buddhism.about.com/od/abuddhistglossary/g/nirvanadef.htm
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
actually Nirvana is neither a place, nor not a place. it's meaningless to in place a meaning to it. :)kind of suit ur explaination of the somewhere ur God dwell, isn't it?. hmm..all i can say is when the mind is pure, the land is pure.
btw i say its a 'realm' or "eternal" are for explanation purpose or at "skillful mean" to suit your understanding. if one attached that it's a place and more into eternalsim, i'll say it's not. if one attached that it's not a place and go into nullism, i'll say it is. but both i will move on to say that it's neither.
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I think the laws of logic must apply. The law of identity and the law of excluded middle and the law of noncontradiction forms the bedrock of any good argument and reason.
A cat is a cat. A cat is not a dog. It is irrational to speak of there being a cat and a non-cat at the same time in the same sense. Where A and non-A are held at the same time in the same sense, you have a contradiction. Contradictory statements are necessarily false. If it is neither this or that, then nothing meaningful is being said since ambiguity is intended.
God is omnipresent, so it does not make sense to say that God is located anywhere. We can speak of the heavenly realms, but it is the spiritual we are talking about, not a place.
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in the ten realms (6 samsaric plus 4 noble realms) we can use logic, but beyond this ten realms, is 一真法界 Dharmadhatu there's no more logic.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
in the ten realms (6 samsaric plus 4 noble realms) we can use logic, but beyond this ten realms, is 一真法界 Dharmadhatu there's no more logic.
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No logic basically also means there is no communication taking place?
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
what u think, we have about 28 realms of heavens.
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~alankhoo/DharmaRealm.htm#Deva
each happiness/joy/pleasure is double when you move up a heavenly level. like you have so much joy in the first heaven, but the joy of the second heaven is double that of the first level. and the joy of the third level is double that of the second. moreover, and the lifespan of the devas be it millions of light years or so is also double for each level.
they do have very very long life, however, there's an end to it, unlike what u all think is "eternal". they suffer, at the very last day of their "life" and "die" to another (lower)realms. that's change at work.
ps : we do have devas with the power to create rains/weather btw.
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The Bible also speak about the 3rd heaven.
But unlike the Buddhist notion of "evolution" where change can take place and one can "change down" (devolution?) to lower realms, the Bible speak of the corrupt being transformed into incorruptible, it is a transformation to a glorified body (not Optimus Prime) where body/soul/spirit are complete.
Humans also have the power to create rain and alter weather conditions using technology and chemistry. But that's tickling with what is already there. Man can even believe they can create life, but even if they succeed that's also using what's already existing. The problem is to create life from nothing. That's a tall order!
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
The Bible also speak about the 3rd heaven.
But unlike the Buddhist notion of "evolution" where change can take place and one can "change down" (devolution?) to lower realms, the Bible speak of the corrupt being transformed into incorruptible, it is a transformation to a glorified body (not Optimus Prime) where body/soul/spirit are complete.
Humans also have the power to create rain and alter weather conditions using technology and chemistry. But that's tickling with what is already there. Man can even believe they can create life, but even if they succeed that's also using what's already existing. The problem is to create life from nothing. That's a tall order!
at first the lower realms was not suppose to be there. but because of ignorance, afflictions, greed and all, the lower realms start to manifest. the heavenly devas came to earth as u read, "created" the human realms, then with folly karma, created the animal realms, with greed karma created the ghosts realm, and with hatred karma created the hell realms. all sort of sins/karma, killing, stealing, lust, lying arises. however, there's a sutra where things will "return" back to heavenly realms. as we have End of the whole Universe (which is 1000000000 universes in all). it will start when hell realm are saved, then the ghost realm, the animal realm and the human realm will also be saved and reborn into some higher heavenly realm of light and above. but way before that we also have a smaller chaos or "end days" where a group of good people will escape to some remote place to start life over, and then after that that's also the next coming of Buddha and by then the human on earth will live like devas/gods, very happy era indeed. sound familar isn't it?
we are not the only universe, there are countless of them like the sands on the beach said Buddha. we are in agreement with science. universes are born and die just like the 4 seasons. AEN's late master/teacher used to study bible, like how many cm thick? but after studing the massive Buddha sutras, he said that the bible is like kindergarden book. not detail enough, too general. the Buddhadharma a lot in depth.
fyi the devas that create weathers are all mental /spiritual powers, no need any equipment like human.
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