The karma of obstructing ppl practice & slander triple gems

• An Eternal Now

  25 Dec 12, 13:29

  Yesterday watched video got this passage which is interesting, tells of what happens at death.
  
  Ven Hui Lu:
  
  诸�，在唯识学里�讲：人死了以�，顶圣眼生天，一个�善事的人，��执�，�希望人家赞�，�能够��念佛的人，临命终，神识一出�，顶部是热的，全身都冷的喔�师父去助念过几百个人，全身都冷的，很奇怪，这顶部很热很热，这个热气就从这里出去。顶圣眼生天，全身都冷的，头顶就是热的，就是�常���议�你看，今天科学家�现，我们的神识是�满全身的；佛在二�五百年�就告诉你：�识本就�全身的。到最�，�识从这里出去，这里是热的。如果婆罗门教行善，基�教�天主教行善，�念佛，�求生净土的人，往生以�，他这个脸，眼�是热的，行善，他也会生天啊，他�是上�救的，他是行善的因果，因果是自然的法则。师父去助念过一个，他�婆拜佛，他有的佛�，统统拿起�撕掉，她穿这个袈裟‥‥‥�是袈裟，海�，他的�婆穿那个海�，用那个剪刀，啪�拜什么佛？拜芭�佛�拜龙眼佛�拜榴梿佛�就是�让她信佛，他这个�婆，�夜都起�哭，她这个先生在�市场�生，�生，就是�一些鱼啊‥‥‥他就是�给你�素，就是�给你拜佛，他的�婆就哭，很难过，她就��摸摸的。
  
  有一次碰到了师父，跪ç�€å“­å¾—很惨，因为她很虔诚，我就很感动她，师父啊，那怎么办啊？我说：你è¦�有智慧啊ï¼�是ä¸�是啊？ä¸�è¦�跟他敌对啊，毕竟他是你的è€�公啊ï¼�佛在心中，以å�Žä½ å°±é¡ºä»–，什么都ä¸�è¦�跟他敌对，他ä¸�喜欢你拜佛，你就默默的念佛，这样也是在念啊，心中。我说：你平常在å�šä»€ä¹ˆï¼Ÿå¥¹è¯´ï¼šæˆ‘平常没有å�šä»€ä¹ˆå•Šï¼Œå¹³å¸¸å°±æ˜¯æ´—è¡£æœ�ã€�煮饭ã€�拖地æ�¿å•Šï¼�我说：很简å�•ï¼�拖地æ�¿çš„时候，拖出去：「阿弥ã€�，拖回æ�¥ï¼šã€Œé™€ä½›ã€�，阿弥陀佛‥‥‥知é�“å�—？å�‘泄下。ä¸�è¦�念那个å�°è¯­çš„，拖出去：××，拖回æ�¥ï¼šå¨˜ï¼Œ××娘‥‥‥骂人家的è¯�，ä¸�好ï¼�所以，业就是我们的心ã€�无明转å�˜çš„，我们的心ç�µï¼Œä¹Ÿå�¯ä»¥è‡ªå·±è½¬åŠ¨ï¼Œä¸�é¡»è¦�任何人。所以，这个居士，我就告诉她，她就这样讲了。
  
  我告诉你喔：��她的先生死得多惨？�天都谤佛，�天都骂他�婆，佛�烧掉，多惨？她先生往生以�，他的�婆：师父啊，我先生往生了�我电�挂�，我说：哎呀�好，好��对佛教，终于死掉。好，这个好，死得好。没有啦�电��拿起�，�装关心一下，内心很舒�，你有什么‥‥‥师父啊，�帮我先生加�啊�因为她很虔诚，我很感动：好�马上就答应，去�全身都�黑，脸��洲人，我没有看过脸黑到这�程度的，黑到连那个手，整�统统都黑掉，那�我这样漂亮，那怎么�能？这是��能的。那个黑得‥‥‥��，我�看他的脚，摸他的脚底，热的�顶圣眼生天，人心，投胎�人，是心最慢冷；饿鬼腹，饿鬼，投胎�饿鬼，肚�最慢冷；�生�盖离，畜生就是�生，�盖最慢冷；地狱脚�出，地狱啊�
  
  知��？地狱就是这个地方，这个地方，脚�，脚�出，他的脚，整�脚都热的。毕竟夫妻是有因缘嘛，好了，她说：师父，那怎么办？我说：这没办法，太严�了�师父就�毗��那佛大�顶光真言，给他加�，还是�行。��没办法了，我说：他��什么�字？我先跟他办三皈�，�他�求�悔，你在世这样谤佛�谤法�谤僧，还阻�人家修行�好，在佛�祈求，跟他皈�佛�皈�法�皈�僧，在那边，师父也是很虔诚，毕竟是众生啊�是�是啊？我一边鼓掌，�是，一边�救他啊�是�是啊？
  
  救他，好�就救他，一直跟他办皈�。我告诉你：���议的事情�生了，他多���议呢？你知��？那个亡者掉眼泪，死了多久的时间，掉眼泪喔�诸�，你们以�有过谤佛�谤法�谤僧，赶快�悔啊，��等到临命终�哭，���了�有谤过三�的，阻�人家修行的，赶快求�悔，人家�了生死的，你拼命阻止他，这个�行的�

• simpo_

  25 Dec 12, 14:26

  Very interesting.

  Thanks for sharing.

• Beautiful951

  5 Jan 13, 19:49

  I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

  Also, how does one å¿�æ‚”?

• sinweiy

  6 Jan 13, 09:17

  Originally posted by Beautiful951:

  I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

  Also, how does one å¿�æ‚”?

  what do u think?

   

• Jui

  6 Jan 13, 13:50

  I'm interested to know what happens when people across sects start talking bad about one another. e.g. Thervada against Mahayana.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jan 13, 15:29

  Originally posted by Jui:

  I'm interested to know what happens when people across sects start talking bad about one another. e.g. Thervada against Mahayana.

  Very bad karma if they are slandering a correct teaching.

• An Eternal Now

  6 Jan 13, 15:31

  Originally posted by Beautiful951:

  I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

  Also, how does one å¿�æ‚”?

  Repentance: recite the repentance verse, prostrate in front of the Buddha, stand up again, recite, prostrate [...] do this 108 times or more or less, if possible everyday.
  
  See http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol6no2c.htm
  
  
  http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/446194
  
  
  
  
  
  Dharmadhatu:

  hi jacky,

  this is not a translation but i roughly tell u what one part of article is about.

  Once, Shen Kai Reverend sent one of his monk disciple to bring a lay disciple to come to his temple immediately, it was an unusual request because the trip back and forth takes several hours and the disciple could have come up the mountain on his own. But it seemed to be due to an urgent matter.  When the disciple arrived, Reverend was quite stern (different from his usual amiable self) and asked this lay disciple to think back whether he did anything wrong as the Reverend had summoned him there to help him purify a very serious karma. The  lay disciple recalled that once he had come upon a very ragged-looked monk and due to his discrimination, he had given rise to disdain on this ragged monk.  He asked the Reverend if this was the matter in question.  The Reverend then informed this disciple that the monk he had seen was in fact an Arhat and that his attitude of disdain had created a very serious karma.  He then asked the disciple to repent and bow down 108 times...

   

  
  (There is also another story that was not translated, it was about laughing at a Buddha's statue)
  
  
  
  So even disdain, disrespectful laughter, is very bad karma. Be very careful.
  

• sinweiy

  6 Jan 13, 19:24

  Originally posted by Beautiful951:

  I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

  Also, how does one å¿�æ‚”?

  佛法也是心法

  u can ask what the heart tell you.

  /\

• Spnw07

  6 Jan 13, 19:39

  Originally posted by Beautiful951:

  I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

  Also, how does one å¿�æ‚”?

  Slandering the Triple Gem can be a wide and deep topic by itself. As shown in AEN's example, thoughts of despise can also be considered slander. Teasing the physical appearance or perceived strange behaviour of monks, well-practised layman Buddhists can also be slander.

  I would go with what AEN has said about the repentance procedure. However, do take note it is not the verse or the number of times per se that is so important in the repentance practice. It is wholehearted understanding (or very sincere attempt to do so) about what is so undesirable about the thoughts and the act of slander that is more important.

  This is supported by certain examples in sutras such as �起��殊胜志��(弥勒��所问�).

  尔时，诸è�©è�¨ç­‰é—»ä½›æ‰€è¯´ï¼Œä¸¾èº«æ¯›ç«–，深生忧悔，便自抆泪，å‰�白佛言：“世尊，我今å�‘露悔其过咎。我等常于è�©è�¨ä¹˜äººï¼Œè½»æ…¢å«‰æ�šå�Šä½™ä¸šéšœï¼Œä»ŠäºŽä½›å‰�如罪å¿�悔。我等今日于世尊å‰�å�‘弘誓愿： 

  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若于è�©è�¨ä¹˜äººï¼Œè§�有è¿�犯举露其过，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若于è�©è�¨ä¹˜äººï¼Œæˆ�弄讥嫌æ��惧轻贱，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若è§�在家ã€�出家è�©è�¨ä¹˜äººï¼Œä»¥äº”欲ä¹�游æˆ�欢娱，è§�å�—用时，终ä¸�于彼伺求其过，常生信敬起教师想。若ä¸�尔者，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若于è�©è�¨ä¹˜äººï¼Œæ‚­äº²å�‹å®¶å�Šè¯¸åˆ©å…»ï¼Œæ�¼å½¼èº«å¿ƒä»¤å…¶é€¼è¿«ï¼Œæˆ‘等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若于è�©è�¨ä¹˜äººï¼Œä»¥ä¸€ç²—言令其ä¸�悦，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若于è�©è�¨ä¹˜äººï¼Œæ˜¼å¤œå…­æ—¶ä¸�勤礼事，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，为欲护æŒ�此弘誓故ä¸�惜身命。若ä¸�尔者，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若于声闻å�Šè¾Ÿæ”¯ä½›ï¼Œä»¥è½»æ…¢å¿ƒï¼Œè°“于彼等ä¸�胜于我，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若ä¸�善能摧ä¼�其身，生下劣想，如旃陀罗å�ŠäºŽç‹—犬，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若自赞å�¹äºŽä»–æ¯�呰，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若ä¸�怖ç•�斗诤之处，去百由旬如疾风å�¹ï¼Œæˆ‘等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，若于æŒ�戒多闻头陀，少欲知足一切功德，身自炫曜，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚ 
  “世尊，我从今日至未æ�¥é™…，所修善本ä¸�自矜ä¼�，所行罪业惭愧å�‘露。若ä¸�尔者，我等则为欺诳如æ�¥ã€‚” 

  尔时，世尊赞诸è�©è�¨ï¼š“善哉ï¼�善哉ï¼�å–„ç”·å­�，善说如是觉悟之法，善å�‘如是广大誓愿ï¼�能以如是决定之心，安ä½�其中，一切业障皆悉消ç�­ï¼Œæ— é‡�善根亦当增长。”

• Beautiful951

  6 Jan 13, 23:06

  Thank you AEN, Sinweiy and Spnw for your replies. :)

• sinweiy

  7 Jan 13, 08:33

  to me, you know what's the best, straight forward and logical way to repent for slandering the dharma?

  do the opposite of slandering. that mean promote back the Dharma you slander. just like what Vasubandhu did.

  VASUBANDHU'S CONVERSION

  "Asanga, teacher of the Law [Dharma], saw that his younger brother was endowed with an intelligence surpassing that of others, his knowledge being deep and wide, and himself well-versed in esoteric and exoteric doctrines. He was afraid that the latter might compose a sastra and crush the Mahayana. He was living then in the land of the Hero (Purusa-pura) and sent a messenger to Vasubandhu in Ayodhya with the following message: "I am seriously ill at present. You had better attend to me quickly." Vasubandhu followed the messenger to his native land, saw his brother and inquired what was the cause of his illness. He answered: "I have now a serious disease of the heart, which arose on account of you." Vasubandhu again asked: "Why do you say on account of me?" He answered: "You dot no believe in the Mahayana and are always attacking and discrediting it. For this wickedness you will be sure to sink forever in a miserable Life. I am now grieved and troubled for your sake to such an extent that my life will no long survive. On hearing this Vasubandhu was surprised and alarmed and asked his brother to expound the Mahayana for him. He then gave him a concise explanation of the essential principles of the Mahayana. Thereupon the Teacher of the Law (Vasubandhu), who was possessed of clear intelligence and especially of deep insight, became at once convinced that the truth of the Mahayana excelled even that of the Hinayana.

  "He then fully investigated, under his brother, the principles of the Mahayana. Soon after he became as thoroughly acquainted with the whole as his brother was. When its meaning was already clear to him, he would meditate on it. From the beginning to the end everything was perfectly in accordance with the truth, there being nothing contradictory to it. For the first time he realized that the Hinayana was wrong and the Mahayana right. If there were no Mahayana, then (he thought) there would be no path (marga) and no fruition (phala) of the Tri-yana [Three Vehicles]. Since he formerly did harm by speaking ill of the Mahayana, in which he then  Bodhisattva Vasubandhu
  had no faith, he was now afraid that he might fall into a miserable life on account of that wickedness. He deeply reproached himself and earnestly repented of his previous fault. He approached his brother and confessed his error, saying: 'I now desire to make a confession. I do not know by what means I can be pardoned for my former slander.' He said (further): 'I formerly did harm speaking ill (of the truth) by means of my tongue. I will now cut out my tongue in order to atone for my crime.' His brother answered: 'Even if you cut out your tongue a thousand times, you cannot wipe out your crime. If you really want to wipe out your crime, you must find some other means.' Thereupon he asked his brother to explain the means of wiping out the offence. The latter said: 'Your tongue was able to speak very skillfully and effectively against the Mahayana, and thus discredit it. If you want to wipe out your offence, you must now propound the Mahayana equally skillfully and effectively.'" (The Life of Vasubandhu, J. Takakusu, tr., pp. 290-292) http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Buddhism/BuddhistDict/BDV.html

  that mean what used to be a disbelieve had turn into a strong believe in it. that's already �悔!

  /\

• Spnw07

  7 Jan 13, 13:24

  The method mentioned by sinweiy is indeed logical and practical.

  However, when it comes to promoting the Dharma, things are not that simple. Depending on the kind of slander committed, the person in question usually has no strong foundational Dharma knowledge and practice. So when such a person finally recognises and accepts he or she has committed slander and wishes to do concrete acts of repentance, they first need to build a strong foundation in Dharma knowledge and practice before thinking of promoting the Dharma actively. If not, such people may unknowingly commit unskilful acts of misleading or discouraging others in learning the Dharma.

  In my opinion (based also on methods implied or directly taught in sutras such as �起��殊胜志��), it is better to consider the following:

  1) Direct and sincere confession to any monk or nun (especially those know to be diligent in Dharma practice and are compassionate and skilful in their communication with lay people).

  When it is not practical or convenient, a well-practised lay Buddhist or even Buddhas/Bodhisattva images can be considered.

  Generally, human to human confession is preferred due to the benefit of direct guidance and the fact that we need human interaction when practising the Dharma.

  2) Cultivate and maintain the sincere desire to study and practise the Dharma well for life. Let the Dharma be your guide in recognising and correcting any kind of mistakes made in thoughts, speech and action in your daily life.

  When people see that you are making sincere efforts to repent, learn and practise the Dharma well in the immediate and long term, you are already promoting the Dharma.

   

• sinweiy

  7 Jan 13, 20:47

  ok, i think promoting Dharma as a whole is promoting Dharma as a whole. but what i am refering when a slander is commited or what b951 refering is when you unknowingly told someone that a particular dharma is wrong, when it's suppose to be right, then to amend that wrong doing, you go back to the person and explain what you say to him/her/them previously is wrong. that's better then reciting any sutra by oneself per se. but if one cannot find them, then no choice. 

  /\

• Spnw07

  10 Jan 13, 16:43

  Hi sinweiy, you wrote 'promote back the Dharma you slander'. I merely expanded on that with direct reference to slander or misrepresentation. Clarifying one's previous misrepresentation of the Dharma is what you meant right? I understood and agreed with that.

  If the person affected by one's misrepresentation/slander cannot be found, then measures such as what AEN and I have wrote can be considered. In fact, most of what are being suggested here can be done concurrently. All these can be viewed as a package, not necessarily in isolation.

• An Eternal Now

  10 Jan 13, 17:07

  Deeply ashamed of his former abuse of the Mahayana, Vasubandhu (one of the fathers of Yogacara) wanted to cut out his tongue, but refrained from doing so when Asanga told him to use it for the cause of Mahayana.
  
  This is a great way of atoning your bad karma of slandering dharma.