What is God? What is Buddha?
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Originally posted by Steveyboy:
Well this is very interesting this thread and I would refrain from making conclusions that will upset any parties. That's why I will revert back to the original teaching which is the fact that all religions, whether it is Buddhism, Christianity and so forth is suppose to transform us. To make us better individuals and kinder too.
Personally, I prefer Buddhism, not because I am a pracititioner alone but because it has a very well-developed understanding of the mind and the development of compassion and wisdom. It is very thorough because the Buddha himself gained full enlightenment and through his state gained full understanding and mastery over his mind. That is why I I take refuge in the 3 Jewels beginning with the Buddha.
I do not think the choice of religion is a matter of personal preference. In any case, you may not be aware that Christianity also has deep philosophical thinkers. All thinking that is on the right track must start with the knowledge of God. -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
We are free from the power of sin but not from the presence of sin. But we will be free from the presence of sin when Judgement Day comes and God put all things right."free from power of sin"? really? what about murderers who continue to murder, cheaters continue to cheat, rapers continue to rape? looks like the endless cycle of sin to me.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
You are stretching the analogy. Ok, even if there is no ticket to hand out, you still need to go to the cinema in good faith to watch it. That is faith at work. Heaven is not limited but the time to make a decision for God is.so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right?
"the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!
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Originally posted by zeus29:
"free from power of sin"? really? what about murderers who continue to murder, cheaters continue to cheat, rapers continue to rape? looks like the endless cycle of sin to me.
so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right?
"the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!
If you insist on stretching the analogy, then I will go along with it albeit reluctantly to say that those who continue to murder and rape will not want to go for the movie at all. They prefer the worldly and lustful pleasures of this life. And it seems that you may have the wrong idea that the movie is never going to start playing! The time will come when the entrance is shut tight and the movie starts. It will be too late if you are left out. But blessed are they who are already seated when the curtains are drawn back. -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
If you insist on stretching the analogy, then I will go along with it albeit reluctantly to say that those who continue to murder and rape will not want to go for the movie at all. They prefer the worldly and lustful pleasures of this life. And it seems that you may have the wrong idea that the movie is never going to start playing! The time will come when the entrance is shut tight and the movie starts. It will be too late if you are left out. But blessed are they who are already seated when the curtains are drawn back.I think "you have the wrong idea". The murderers etc was in reference to "free from power of sin". Kindly reread when in doubt.
so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right? => refers to your reply of no ticket is required.
Also, "the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!
"shut tight and left out", god can't reopen the doors with his might?
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Originally posted by zeus29:
I think "you have the wrong idea". The murderers etc was in reference to "free from power of sin". Kindly reread when in doubt.
so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right? => refers to your reply of no ticket is required.
Also, "the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!
You are not reading properly. I did not say that God is bound by time. I said that the time to make a decision for God is not forever. Which is why the Bible says that NOW is the time of salvation. -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
You are not reading properly. I did not say that God is bound by time. I said that the time to make a decision for God is not forever. Which is why the Bible says that NOW is the time of salvation.Err, didn't you just said "Heaven is not limited but the time to make a decision for God is."?
Which means he too has to comply with time just like the deva realm is not permanent. Why not forever since he's almighty? And why not keep the gates open forever?
following the thread, I'm left with more questions.
Since our sins have been paid millenias ago, why aren't we back in Eden?
Since we are free from the power of sin, we shouldn't be sinning. Sadly, no.
Since our sins have been paid, everyone should be going to heaven regardless of one's faith and since having erroneous faith is sin against god but that too has been paid.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Did this Pure Land teaching originate from the Buddha himself?
Yes. though mostly from Mayahana; Amitabha Sutra, Infinity Light/Life Sutra. Visualisation Sutra etc./\
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Why would you think that to offer man salvation by grace is tantamount to implying that man is a worthless being? When it has already been stated that the ticket cannot be earned why do you insist on working for it? Is it one's pride and ego at work to humbly admit that a gift cannot be earned, otherwise it is not called a gift?
that said keep giving fishes/food to a fisherman who don't make their own effort to earn their own living, is not really helping but also make them more lazy. it's better to Teach them how to fish. after Enlightenment, Buddha taught for 45 years. (also on going in other world)the different here is one always sit below god, and will never be Equal to god. in Buddha's time, He strongly oppose to slavery. He took in slave as his disciple without discrimination. He told them that they are No different from him!
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@BroInChrist - One thing is for sure, you do have an indomitable spirit to spread the Gospel I must say. Even when you are unable to convince, you continue to express your beliefs. Unfortunately, Buddhists who know the teachings tend to be the intellectual types that need a religion that answers more questions. You see, Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask too much questions. While in Buddhism, it works better when you ask more questions as we achieve a better understanding. Now, I know that you will argue with these points and I just wanted to share my understanding and experiences in both religions.
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Originally posted by zeus29:
Err, didn't you just said "Heaven is not limited but the time to make a decision for God is."?
Which means he too has to comply with time just like the deva realm is not permanent. Why not forever since he's almighty? And why not keep the gates open forever?
following the thread, I'm left with more questions.
Since our sins have been paid millenias ago, why aren't we back in Eden?
Since we are free from the power of sin, we shouldn't be sinning. Sadly, no.
Since our sins have been paid, everyone should be going to heaven regardless of one's faith and since having erroneous faith is sin against god but that too has been paid.
I don't see how you come to the conclusion that God has to comply with time. God is the creator of time. He decides when to start the movie, so to speak. Asking God to keep the gates open forever basically means the movie never gets to start, that would be rather absurd demand. And why keep the gates open forever?
Now to address your questions:
1. Why aren't we back in Eden? It's a matter of timing. The Bible teaches a time when the lamb would lie with the lion. Sounds Edenic doesn't it? Anyway, if you read Revelation the Bible talks about the saints who would dwell in a place where the Tree of Life is in abundant all the time!
2. Free from the power of sin means that the the second death cannot touch believers. In other words, believers will not be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is reserved for the devil and his demons and those who rebel against God and refuse His offer of salvation in Jesus Christ. It does not mean that believers are incapable of sin. Again the Bible does not teach this, so this is your false idea.
3. You are promoting the false idea of universalism which has been denounced as heresy. Sad to say, many Christians are promoting this idea too. The Bible teaches that salvation has been freely offered to all, Christ died for everyone. But the Bible also teaches that not everyone wants to take up the offer. God is not going to force the gift on you if you so insist on refusing it. Or would you prefer that God drag you screaming and shouting into heaven against your will? That would be hell for you, wouldn't it? And I thought most people do not like to be imposed upon?
3.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
Yes. though mostly from Mayahana; Amitabha Sutra, Infinity Light/Life Sutra. Visualisation Sutra etc./\
OK, do you have specific speeches by the Buddha himself? Something similar to the Chapter and Verse that Christians normally quote to show that the Bible teaches certain things?
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
that said keep giving fishes/food to a fisherman who don't make their own effort to earn their own living, is not really helping but also make them more lazy. it's better to Teach them how to fish. after Enlightenment, Buddha taught for 45 years. (also on going in other world)the different here is one always sit below god, and will never be Equal to god. in Buddha's time, He strongly oppose to slavery. He took in slave as his disciple without discrimination. He told them that they are No different from him!
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The fallacy here is that you think salvation is likened to a skill that can be learned, like fishing. The point of the Bible is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to earn your way to heaven. One has to be morally PERFECT to merit a place in heaven and no one is in that category. Measured against God's commandments we all fail miserably.
Why would it cause offence to acknowledge that the Creator is above His creation? It is a fact to be acknowledged, not rebelled against. Jesus also told His disciples that He called them His friends, even though He is their rightful Lord and Master. Jesus never discriminated against anyone either.
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Originally posted by Steveyboy:
@BroInChrist - One thing is for sure, you do have an indomitable spirit to spread the Gospel I must say. Even when you are unable to convince, you continue to express your beliefs. Unfortunately, Buddhists who know the teachings tend to be the intellectual types that need a religion that answers more questions. You see, Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask too much questions. While in Buddhism, it works better when you ask more questions as we achieve a better understanding. Now, I know that you will argue with these points and I just wanted to share my understanding and experiences in both religions.
Thank you for your compliment. I am also aware that there are people with similar indomitable spirit to undermine the Christian faith! Even when their objections have been refuted or neutralised they still continue to press the same old canards.
I don't know how you get the idea that Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask much questions. I mean, even in Buddhism you are taught not to ask questions about whether there is a Creator God! If you entertain the view that Christianity frowns upon asking questions, then sorry to say that is your caricature of the Christian faith. Just take me for example, have you heard me telling you and fellow Buddhists not to ask too much questions about Christianity? Nope, I actually welcome them. Websites like www.gotquestions.org and creation.com have answers to hundreds and hundreds of questions. Does that sound like Christianity is all about believing and not asking questions?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I don't see how you come to the conclusion that God has to comply with time. God is the creator of time. He decides when to start the movie, so to speak. Asking God to keep the gates open forever basically means the movie never gets to start, that would be rather absurd demand. And why keep the gates open forever?
i don't see how you not see that god has to comply with time given your earlier replies. anyone else sees the inconsistency and paradox?
"Asking God to keep the gates open forever basically means the movie never gets to start" -> so you're saying his awesome power that works in mysterious ways is as defined by you? and limited by your knowledge?
"absurd demand" -> what's not absurb demand?
"why keep gates open" -> why not? for the love of his children? won't you for your kids?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Now to address your questions:
1. Why aren't we back in Eden? It's a matter of timing. The Bible teaches a time when the lamb would lie with the lion. Sounds Edenic doesn't it? Anyway, if you read Revelation the Bible talks about the saints who would dwell in a place where the Tree of Life is in abundant all the time!
didn't you say god created time? why the timing? why not reset back to original paradise when sin has been erased?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:2. Free from the power of sin means that the the second death cannot touch believers. In other words, believers will not be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is reserved for the devil and his demons and those who rebel against God and refuse His offer of salvation in Jesus Christ. It does not mean that believers are incapable of sin. Again the Bible does not teach this, so this is your false idea.
second death? eeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........................
and "Free from the power of sin means that the the second death cannot touch believers. " -> death is sin?
"Lake of Fire which is reserved for the devil and his demons " -> so, no salvation for the devil? no turning over a new leaf? I much prefer our buddhist compassion. Isn't devil too created by god?
"and those who rebel and refuse the offer" -> so those who refuse get punished? there are plenty of free events out there, are you punished for not going to them? what kind of evil is this?
hey broinchrist, guess what? You didn't ask for it but I cooked for you a super spicy vindaloo. Come eat as much as you want. If you don't eat, I'll throw it at your face and let the pepper in the curry will blind you for the rest of your life.
"It does not mean that believers are incapable of sin. Again the Bible does not teach this, so this is your false idea. Again the Bible does not teach this, so this is your false idea." -> free from power of sin yet can sin? MEGA HUHHHHH??? Do you mean free from effects of sin? Since free from effects of sin which include the sin of betraying god and eating the forbidden fruit, why not back in Eden? which you then said it's due to timing but you said god created time but then god has to wait but have limited time for decision which I then said god too has to comply with time which you disagree. Pretty confusing isn't it? So which is true? He has power over time or not? Why wait? Why continue to see people suffer?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:3. You are promoting the false idea of universalism which has been denounced as heresy. Sad to say, many Christians are promoting this idea too. The Bible teaches that salvation has been freely offered to all, Christ died for everyone. But the Bible also teaches that not everyone wants to take up the offer. God is not going to force the gift on you if you so insist on refusing it. Or would you prefer that God drag you screaming and shouting into heaven against your will? That would be hell for you, wouldn't it? And I thought most people do not like to be imposed upon?
"false idea of universalism which has been denounced as heresy." -> so, you decide? isn't wrong faith sin against god and all have already been paid by jesus? so what's happening? i'm more confused that ever. was jesus able to pay for our sins or not? do you mean jesus is only able to pay for sins up to his crucification? but that too included sin from adam. again above question, why not reset back to paradise? or does god still hold grudges against mankind even though all sins have been paid?
"Christ died for everyone. But the Bible also teaches that not everyone wants to take up the offer. God is not going to force the gift on you if you so insist on refusing it. Or would you prefer that God drag you screaming and shouting into heaven against your will? -> another MEGA HUH!!!???
let me get this straight. you said jesus died for everyone. god's gift to everyone. god doesn't force people to take up his gift yet those who don't take up his offer will be sent to eternal hell. is that what you're saying? wow. A gift held at ransom!
Originally posted by BroInChrist:OK, do you have specific speeches by the Buddha himself? Something similar to the Chapter and Verse that Christians normally quote to show that the Bible teaches certain things?
dude, didn't you see the name of the sutra? do you what know a sutra is? sayings/teachings of the buddha.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:The fallacy here is that you think salvation is likened to a skill that can be learned, like fishing. The point of the Bible is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to earn your way to heaven. One has to be morally PERFECT to merit a place in heaven and no one is in that category. Measured against God's commandments we all fail miserably.
Why would it cause offence to acknowledge that the Creator is above His creation? It is a fact to be acknowledged, not rebelled against. Jesus also told His disciples that He called them His friends, even though He is their rightful Lord and Master. Jesus never discriminated against anyone either.
"The fallacy here is that you think salvation is likened to a skill that can be learned, like fishing. The point of the Bible is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to earn your way to heaven. " -> according to your perspective. Didn't you study hard to get into uni? The letter of offer just came?
"One has to be morally PERFECT to merit a place in heaven and no one is in that category. " -> so, no one is going to heaven?
"Why would it cause offence to acknowledge that the Creator is above His creation? It is a fact to be acknowledged, not rebelled against." -> what fact and whose fact? a fact has solid grounding. what's yours? if no, it's just a hypothesis or merely a fact to you only.
"Jesus also told His disciples that He called them His friends, even though He is their rightful Lord and Master. Jesus never discriminated against anyone either." -> good.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Thank you for your compliment. I am also aware that there are people with similar indomitable spirit to undermine the Christian faith! Even when their objections have been refuted or neutralised they still continue to press the same old canards. I don't know how you get the idea that Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask much questions. I mean, even in Buddhism you are taught not to ask questions about whether there is a Creator God! If you entertain the view that Christianity frowns upon asking questions, then sorry to say that is your caricature of the Christian faith. Just take me for example, have you heard me telling you and fellow Buddhists not to ask too much questions about Christianity? Nope, I actually welcome them. Websites like www.gotquestions.org and creation.com have answers to hundreds and hundreds of questions. Does that sound like Christianity is all about believing and not asking questions?
"undermine the Christian faith!" -> where did you get that? do you mean buddhissts? you do know that buddhists are quite apathic, right? i don't think buddhists have ever wage war against another faith, fight a war in the name of faith or actively evangelise others.
"I don't know how you get the idea that Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask much questions." -> that's his thoughts and his findings. do people tell you how should feel? let's try this. broinchrist, you're hungry now. go eat. eat. eat. as if i know if you actually feel any hunger.
"I mean, even in Buddhism you are taught not to ask questions about whether there is a Creator God!" -> taught not to ask? since when and where? "i think you have the wrong idea" :) you forgot about his apathic answer?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
OK, do you have specific speeches by the Buddha himself? Something similar to the Chapter and Verse that Christians normally quote to show that the Bible teaches certain things?
Amitabha Sutra is short and directly talking about Amitabha Buddha.
http://www.fodian.net/English/Amitabha_Sutra.htm
Infinity Life Sutra is lot longer.
u may find it interesting that Pureland school emphasis on Faith too. we call it more of a mental State of conviction/Saddha. a Right form of faith.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.038.than.html
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/436563
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
The fallacy here is that you think salvation is likened to a skill that can be learned, like fishing. The point of the Bible is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to earn your way to heaven. One has to be morally PERFECT to merit a place in heaven and no one is in that category. Measured against God's commandments we all fail miserably.
Why would it cause offence to acknowledge that the Creator is above His creation? It is a fact to be acknowledged, not rebelled against. Jesus also told His disciples that He called them His friends, even though He is their rightful Lord and Master. Jesus never discriminated against anyone either.
in Buddhism it is not a fallacy. we can follow the 8 fold path and achieved Enlightenment and end suffering, and end karmic "sin", aka salvation!
and the 'fallacy' here is that u think that ur Creator is a being. we are beings with emotions, he is also a being also with emotions. then we are all sentient beings as stated in Buddhism. hence we should be more equal, instead of calling him "Master" and we need to be of obedience. that's our differences. All beings including animals can attained Buddhahood oneday. non-discimination to the max.
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The Pureland teaching's concept of faith is however, different from that of Christianity, just to add in. Am presently doing my best to understand more about those differences.
I too feel that religion is more of a matter of personal preference. I have explained this to a Christian relative some time ago that people chose to believe in or practise their beliefs based on whatever sounds 'reasonable' or 'feels right or good' to them at any point in time.
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here is my experience from this thread.
before i didn't even think abou this "god". as the thread progressed, i thought "ah, maybe this god being is a deva enjoying the pleasures in heaven but limited to time". as more exchanges and replies from broinchrist, i think this god being is actually an asura. has ego, jealousy and anger yet powerful but limited in power and time, befitting the description of asura realm. how interesting!!
"pray to me, me, me, everything me, only me" -> ego
"don't go to others" -> jealousy
"if don't, go to hell" -> anger
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The Pureland teaching's concept of faith is however, different from that of Christianity, just to add in. Am presently doing my best to understand more about those differences.
i think the quality of faith/certainty in a mental sense, don't have any different. the different is in Right View. In Pureland we talk about Faith, Aspiration and Practice信愿行 all important.
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Originally posted by zeus29:
i don't see how you not see that god has to comply with time given your earlier replies. anyone else sees the inconsistency and paradox?
"Asking God to keep the gates open forever basically means the movie never gets to start" -> so you're saying his awesome power that works in mysterious ways is as defined by you? and limited by your knowledge?
"absurd demand" -> what's not absurb demand?
"why keep gates open" -> why not? for the love of his children? won't you for your kids?
didn't you say god created time? why the timing? why not reset back to original paradise when sin has been erased?
second death? eeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........................
and "Free from the power of sin means that the the second death cannot touch believers. " -> death is sin?
"Lake of Fire which is reserved for the devil and his demons " -> so, no salvation for the devil? no turning over a new leaf? I much prefer our buddhist compassion. Isn't devil too created by god?
"and those who rebel and refuse the offer" -> so those who refuse get punished? there are plenty of free events out there, are you punished for not going to them? what kind of evil is this?
hey broinchrist, guess what? You didn't ask for it but I cooked for you a super spicy vindaloo. Come eat as much as you want. If you don't eat, I'll throw it at your face and let the pepper in the curry will blind you for the rest of your life.
"It does not mean that believers are incapable of sin. Again the Bible does not teach this, so this is your false idea. Again the Bible does not teach this, so this is your false idea." -> free from power of sin yet can sin? MEGA HUHHHHH??? Do you mean free from effects of sin? Since free from effects of sin which include the sin of betraying god and eating the forbidden fruit, why not back in Eden? which you then said it's due to timing but you said god created time but then god has to wait but have limited time for decision which I then said god too has to comply with time which you disagree. Pretty confusing isn't it? So which is true? He has power over time or not? Why wait? Why continue to see people suffer?
"false idea of universalism which has been denounced as heresy." -> so, you decide? isn't wrong faith sin against god and all have already been paid by jesus? so what's happening? i'm more confused that ever. was jesus able to pay for our sins or not? do you mean jesus is only able to pay for sins up to his crucification? but that too included sin from adam. again above question, why not reset back to paradise? or does god still hold grudges against mankind even though all sins have been paid?
"Christ died for everyone. But the Bible also teaches that not everyone wants to take up the offer. God is not going to force the gift on you if you so insist on refusing it. Or would you prefer that God drag you screaming and shouting into heaven against your will? -> another MEGA HUH!!!???
let me get this straight. you said jesus died for everyone. god's gift to everyone. god doesn't force people to take up his gift yet those who don't take up his offer will be sent to eternal hell. is that what you're saying? wow. A gift held at ransom!
dude, didn't you see the name of the sutra? do you what know a sutra is? sayings/teachings of the buddha.
"The fallacy here is that you think salvation is likened to a skill that can be learned, like fishing. The point of the Bible is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to earn your way to heaven. " -> according to your perspective. Didn't you study hard to get into uni? The letter of offer just came?
"One has to be morally PERFECT to merit a place in heaven and no one is in that category. " -> so, no one is going to heaven?
"Why would it cause offence to acknowledge that the Creator is above His creation? It is a fact to be acknowledged, not rebelled against." -> what fact and whose fact? a fact has solid grounding. what's yours? if no, it's just a hypothesis or merely a fact to you only.
"Jesus also told His disciples that He called them His friends, even though He is their rightful Lord and Master. Jesus never discriminated against anyone either." -> good.
"undermine the Christian faith!" -> where did you get that? do you mean buddhissts? you do know that buddhists are quite apathic, right? i don't think buddhists have ever wage war against another faith, fight a war in the name of faith or actively evangelise others.
"I don't know how you get the idea that Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask much questions." -> that's his thoughts and his findings. do people tell you how should feel? let's try this. broinchrist, you're hungry now. go eat. eat. eat. as if i know if you actually feel any hunger.
"I mean, even in Buddhism you are taught not to ask questions about whether there is a Creator God!" -> taught not to ask? since when and where? "i think you have the wrong idea" :) you forgot about his apathic answer?
1. Given that God is the creator of time, I don't see how you don't see that God does not have to comply with time. I suppose He only needs to comply with His own "time table"! In that case God is only bound by His own being which is hardly contradictory or paradoxical.
2. I am saying that your demand that the gates remain forever open is an absurd demand just as it is absurd to insist that the doors of the cinema does not close. If not close, then how to start the movie? Forever don't close also means that the movie forever don't start. I don't see how you don't see the absurdity of this demand.
3. Why would God be precluded from setting a time for us just because He created time? And you have confused eradicating sin with the atonement for sins. What Christ did on the cross was the atonement for sins. The eradication of it would take place on Judgement Day.
4. Death is not sin. Death is the result/consequences/wages of sin. The first death is physical, your body dies but your soul/spirit lives on. The second death takes place after the resurrection from the dead, your body reunites with your spirit/soul and you get thrown into the lake of fire. Not cool at all.
5. Yes, there is no salvation for the devil. Mind you, he doesn't want to be saved. What makes you think he wants to? Just like how you don't want to believe in God or Jesus. It's a conscious deliberate decisive act of the will. In fact, the Bible already tells us in Revelation that the devil remains the devil still.
6. By saying that there are a lot of free events out there and you get punished for not going to them, you have really stretch the analogy too far that it distorts the whole picture. The fallacy you committed here is that you think the free gift of salvation is like any other free commodity offered out there in the market.
7. Make no mistake about it, you are not sent to hell just because you did not believe, but it is because of your sins. Here's another analogy. You are travelling on a highway, the road sign says to turn left as the road in not completed many kilometres down and there's a hole in the ground. There's even a skull sign for visual impact. But you choose NOT to believe the road sign seeing that the road ahead looks fine. You just keep travelling and see the same road signs, and you still choose to ignore it. You think it is a prank. You think it is idiots at work setting up such warning signs for so many kilometres. Or that some idiots are trying to impose their beliefs on you by posting these warning signs repeatedly. At last you suddenly drop and splash and splatter. Who do you blame? Is it a failure to believe or a conscious act of rebellion? I'd say it is both. Either way the responsibility was yours.
8. I already said clearly that free from the effects of sin means not to experience the eternal separation from God i.e. thrown into the Lake of Fire. I think you read that but somehow it did not register?
9. I did not decide that universalism is wrong. God said so in the Bible. Not everyone will be saved. You need to understand that salvation is conditional upon repentance. This truth should not elude you since you also believe that attaining Nirvana is conditional upon many things. Thus your mega huh is greeted by a mega duh from me. ; p
10. The Bible simply teaches that your ticket out of hell is free, why would that be a gift held at ransom? Again this truth should not elude you since you believe in Buddhism that everyone is in samsara to begin with and need to get out of it. The difference is that in your worldview you believe you can buy your way out. But in the Christian worldview, the ticket is given for free, though Christ had to pay for you. But you know, sometimes the self is just too much and we refuse to take something for free. It's often an ego or pride thing.
11. I don't think it is true that Sutra necessarily means it is the sayings of the Buddha, not from here http://buddhism.about.com/od/abuddhistglossary/g/sutradef2.htm anyway. But what I was asking you to do is to provide specific words from the Buddha teaching, akin to what we have with Chapter and Vers. It is not very nice or helpful of me to throw you the whole NT and tell you that the teaching can be found there.
12. It isn't just my perspective that you cannot earn salvation. It's what the Bible teaches. If it's just my perspective you can ignore it. And if you can earn salvation by yourself, then Christ need not die on the cross. It's like paying for bail set at $20 million. If you can bail yourself out, then you did not need help.
13. Yes, you got that right. No one is going to heaven simply because no one is morally perfect. That's why the Bible teaches that we are all dead in Adam. Our ticket out is to be in Christ, who is the last Adam.
14. If you dismiss my beliefs as mere hypothesis, then I can just as easily dismiss yours as well. But that's not going to make for a good discussion. The point is, can you fault the logic that a creation is not above its creator? Is the Windows software superior to the maker Bill Gates?
15. Why would you think that the word "undermine" carries a militaristic connotation? Who said anything about Buddhism going to war with other religions? But that Buddhism is a missionary faith is not in question. Otherwise how did it spread?
16. I was simply asking why he thinks that Christianity is about just believe and don't ask. I am actually refuting this caricature of the faih. If he has come across many Christians who espouse this notion, then it is regretable, but it certainly does not represent the Christian faith truly.
17. Don't care is not the same as saying Don't know, though sometimes people can cover up their ignorance by saying they don't care. So did Buddha know the answer to whether there is a God? Don't ask. It is irrelevant. Is it irrelevant because he don't know or because he knows but don't want to tell? But why don't tell? What harm would it cause if he tells us what he knows? You may ask, what good would it do if we know? I would say "heaps!"
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Originally posted by zeus29:
here is my experience from this thread.
before i didn't even think abou this "god". as the thread progressed, i thought "ah, maybe this god being is a deva enjoying the pleasures in heaven but limited to time". as more exchanges and replies from broinchrist, i think this god being is actually an asura. has ego, jealousy and anger yet powerful but limited in power and time, befitting the description of asura realm. how interesting!!
"pray to me, me, me, everything me, only me" -> ego
"don't go to others" -> jealousy
"if don't, go to hell" -> anger
If there is only one God, then why pray to others?
You are jealous if your wife seems to be attracted to another person. Is that a problem? I would say you have a problem if you are not jealous!
Hell is indeed a place of wrath where God pours out his anger on rebellious sinners. It is right to be angry with what is wrong.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
1. Given that God is the creator of time, I don't see how you don't see that God does not have to comply with time. I suppose He only needs to comply with His own "time table"! In that case God is only bound by His own being which is hardly contradictory or paradoxical.
If he created time, then from his point of view, there is a before creation and after creation, which implies that time already existed. So there is a contradiction, and therefore it is not possible for time to be created by him.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
17. Don't care is not the same as saying Don't know, though sometimes people can cover up their ignorance by saying they don't care. So did Buddha know the answer to whether there is a God? Don't ask. It is irrelevant. Is it irrelevant because he don't know or because he knows but don't want to tell? But why don't tell? What harm would it cause if he tells us what he knows? You may ask, what good would it do if we know? I would say "heaps!"
maybe zeus29 didn't put it correctly. Buddha will answer what you don't know like "an old wise man" as i posted in another thread. unless the questions will effect one's path/ upbringing, or when He see that the person is not ready, He would not say until they are ready. just imagine a parent teaching their children, not everything the parent can answer, the kid can understand at certain age. eg birds and bees. eg the use of santa claus to children. if u behave, santa will reward, if u not behave, u will be punished! this is useful when the person is not matured. then when one become matured, there's really no santa claus!
got oneday, Buddha took up a handful of leaves and point to the forest and say to disciples, what i know is equivalent to the leaves in the forests, but what u need to know for liberation is just this handful.
'There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our thoughts.'(Bertrand Russell)
http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/dhammananda/297.htm
Buddha was just not interested in discussion about retrospect but introspect is more important.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Hell is indeed a place of wrath where God pours out his anger on rebellious sinners. It is right to be angry with what is wrong.
immatured to me. we do not condemn one who can change to the better/good even when one had wronged due to ignorance. learned from mistake is a good thing! just like we don't condemn a child who had not matured.
this part of the bible, is we people find the most unacceptable.
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@wl_t
agreed with you
If time has inherent existence, there will be no past, present, future. Each moment is dependent on another moment of time.
To say time has inherent existence is definitely flawed
