Emptiness and Existence
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Any religion practiced in its true spirit has the well-being of all as its goal, and so surely ought to be a factor of peace. However, we are constantly reminded that it is unacceptable that conflicts like those in the Middle East, and elsewhere, continue to arise at least partly through differences of religion. The message of Jesus Christ is one of love, and one of the meanings of the word ‘Islam’ is peace. Violence and coercion perpetrated in religion’s name, and the use of religion to accentuate the divisions between peoples, can therefore only be abuses. Truth is strong enough by itself to convince, and should never be imposed by force. It should never be necessary for an authentic truth to need violence to be asserted.
There are two main forms that intolerance takes. The first is when people who haven’t gone deeply into the real meaning of their religion, and don’t practice it in an authentic way, use it as a rallying flag to arouse sectarian, ethnic, or nationalist passions. The second is when people who practice their religions so sincerely are so deeply convinced of the truth of their beliefs that they think any means are justified to impose them on others, since by so doing they are helping them. The first part, their conviction in their faith, is admirable, but it is what follows that is so wrong. They do not know how to respect other people’s religious traditions and the diversity of human beings. The Dalai Lama often says, ‘We should have total conviction in our own spiritual path along with perfect respect toward other truths.’
If what is understood as ‘God’ is ‘infinite love and wisdom’, as Christians sometimes say, then Buddhism would have no trouble accepting that understanding of divinity. If by ‘God’ one means absolute truth, the ultimate nature of being, or infinite compassion, then the difference between Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, and all other monotheistic or polytheistic belief is simply reduced to only a matter of words…
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Originally posted by AtlasWept:
Any religion practiced in its true spirit has the well-being of all as its goal, and so surely ought to be a factor of peace. However, we are constantly reminded that it is unacceptable that conflicts like those in the Middle East, and elsewhere, continue to arise at least partly through differences of religion. The message of Jesus Christ is one of love, and one of the meanings of the word ‘Islam’ is peace. Violence and coercion perpetrated in religion’s name, and the use of religion to accentuate the divisions between peoples, can therefore only be abuses. Truth is strong enough by itself to convince, and should never be imposed by force. It should never be necessary for an authentic truth to need violence to be asserted.
There are two main forms that intolerance takes. The first is when people who haven’t gone deeply into the real meaning of their religion, and don’t practice it in an authentic way, use it as a rallying flag to arouse sectarian, ethnic, or nationalist passions. The second is when people who practice their religions so sincerely are so deeply convinced of the truth of their beliefs that they think any means are justified to impose them on others, since by so doing they are helping them. The first part, their conviction in their faith, is admirable, but it is what follows that is so wrong. They do not know how to respect other people’s religious traditions and the diversity of human beings. The Dalai Lama often says, ‘We should have total conviction in our own spiritual path along with perfect respect toward other truths.’
If what is understood as ‘God’ is ‘infinite love and wisdom’, as Christians sometimes say, then Buddhism would have no trouble accepting that understanding of divinity. If by ‘God’ one means absolute truth, the ultimate nature of being, or infinite compassion, then the difference between Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, and all other monotheistic or polytheistic belief is simply reduced to only a matter of words…
Dear Atlas,
What you said is rather compelling and beautful but I am afraid nobody is convinced that it is just a matter of words. Just take Christianity, Judaism and Islam for example, they can't even get along enough to see that they are praying to the same God. We don't even have to look at Buddhism, whose ideas of the ultimate is elaborately presented in its various philosophies.
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But the Christians also call their God a jealous and angry God based on the bible. Most people take God as a personal being.Thus the reason for all the violence.
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Originally posted by Steveyboy:
Dear Atlas,
What you said is rather compelling and beautful but I am afraid nobody is convinced that it is just a matter of words. Just take Christianity, Judaism and Islam for example, they can't even get along enough to see that they are praying to the same God. We don't even have to look at Buddhism, whose ideas of the ultimate is elaborately presented in its various philosophies.
Your criticism is unfair because it is rather superficial and sweeping statement. Though Judaism and Christianity worships the same God, their ways departs on other significant issues, notably on the Messiah. As for Islam, even Muslims themselves do not think that we are praying to the same God. But I do not wish to go much further than this comment.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Your criticism is unfair because it is rather superficial and sweeping statement. Though Judaism and Christianity worships the same God, their ways departs on other significant issues, notably on the Messiah. As for Islam, even Muslims themselves do not think that we are praying to the same God. But I do not wish to go much further than this comment.
so, there are "gods"?
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Originally posted by zeus29:
so, there are "gods"?
Yes, the Bible recognises that there are "gods" which people worship but which do not exist in reality.
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Originally posted by 2009novice:
And the conclusion you are trying to derive from this theory is ????
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
And the conclusion you are trying to derive from this theory is ????
to borrow a scientific conclusion from a renowned scientist to support this thread
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Yes, the Bible recognises that there are "gods" which people worship but which do not exist in reality.
becareful of what u stating here... it's abit too far
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Yes, the Bible recognises that there are "gods" which people worship but which do not exist in reality.
i wonder how He says it. or just ur all put words into him. same to how he said he does not change.
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Originally posted by 2009novice:
becareful of what u stating here... it's abit too far
It is not any further than buddhists or atheists saying that the Creator God that the Bible speaks about does not exist. -
Originally posted by 2009novice:
to borrow a scientific conclusion from a renowned scientist to support this thread
A fishing net has many holes in it, you can say it consists of a lot of empty space. But so? -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
It is not any further than buddhists or atheists saying that the Creator God that the Bible speaks about does not exist.Who said Buddhists say creator god does or doesn't exist? We just don't emphasize and don't really care. "it seems you have the WRONG idea" :p
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
It is not any further than buddhists or atheists saying that the Creator God that the Bible speaks about does not exist.certainly u are entitled to have your own views... but again your views shouldn't impose to others
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Yes, the Bible recognises that there are "gods" which people worship but which do not exist in reality.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
A fishing net has many holes in it, you can say it consists of a lot of empty space. But so?so what is your point?
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BIC,
pardon me... i think u have gone from debate to proselytise... that's what i think now. This is a buddhist forum afterall
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
i wonder how He says it. or just ur all put words into him. same to how he said he does not change.
the human interpretation of god...
human says...
lucky Buddha is not god... otherwise jialat ah....
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Originally posted by zeus29:
Who said Buddhists say creator god does or doesn't exist? We just don't emphasize and don't really care. "it seems you have the WRONG idea" :p
So Buddhists believe a Creator God exists but just couldn't care less? Ok, this is something new coming from you. I think the Mods here would disagree with you. -
Originally posted by 2009novice:
certainly u are entitled to have your own views... but again your views shouldn't impose to others
How have I imposed my views on you or others? I was rebutting your earlier point that I have gone too far in stating that the gods people worship do not exist. But this is not anymore going too far than atheists or some Buddhists saying that the God that Christians worship do not exist, be it because of the so-called problem of evil or some other reasons. I think I made a fair statement here, don't you agree?I would urge that you do not hastily throw such allegations that I am imposing my views on others, anymore than I would accuse you of the same. All I am doing is stating my beliefs, defending them where necessary, and contrasting them with yours and fellow Buddhists here. No one is forced to read what I wrote or to accept my beliefs.
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Originally posted by 2009novice:
BIC,
pardon me... i think u have gone from debate to proselytise... that's what i think now. This is a buddhist forum afterall
This allegation that I am proselytising sounds like a conversation-stopper. I am fully cognizant that this is a Buddhist forum, but I am also aware that there are buddhists here who holds certain views about Christianity that are wrong or distorted. I believe that they are open-minded about my correcting some of these wrong ideas. But if you or the Mods here think that I have overstayed my welcome here, I will be happy to take my leave from this forum. It is a Buddhist forum after all. So just feel free to let me know. -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
So Buddhists believe a Creator God exists but just couldn't care less? Ok, this is something new coming from you. I think the Mods here would disagree with you.
dude, i said "Who said Buddhists say creator god does or doesn't exist? We just don't emphasize and don't really care".
as mentioned on another thread, the question of whether creator god exists or not is irrelevant as we're already here. we're in charge of our own destiny and live our current life to the fullest and benefit others, no?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
So Buddhists believe a Creator God exists but just couldn't care less? Ok, this is something new coming from you. I think the Mods here would disagree with you."believe" is not the word. clarify is more suitable.
there's two kind that Buddhism mention. one is Brahma, the first being who first appeared in our universe, who have the great power to create using his freewill. but he's also subjected to death after a very very long eon.
the second is about the ultimate source. clear light, but it need to be accompanied by more explaination, so that Buddhists will not be misleaded.
"We can say, therefore, that this ultimate source, clear light, is close to the notion of a Creator, since all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana, originate therein. But we must be careful in speaking of this source, we must not be led into error. I do not mean chat there exists somewhere, there, a sort of collective clear light, analogous to the non-Buddhist concept of Brahma as a substratum. We must not be inclined to deify this luminous space. We must understand that when we speak of ultimate or inherent clear light, we are speaking on an individual level. "--Dalai Lama
http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes22.html
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
This allegation that I am proselytising sounds like a conversation-stopper. I am fully cognizant that this is a Buddhist forum, but I am also aware that there are buddhists here who holds certain views about Christianity that are wrong or distorted. I believe that they are open-minded about my correcting some of these wrong ideas. But if you or the Mods here think that I have overstayed my welcome here, I will be happy to take my leave from this forum. It is a Buddhist forum after all. So just feel free to let me know.i am fine. it's a free for all forum. i cannot block this system, i can only close or remove/edit the postings when it become nasty. now it's not nasty. like wise we can also correct some wrong ideas that people thought of Buddhism. we are democracy, need more vote? i vote ok.
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i do agree that we should not impose our views on others... especially religious ones. Basic respect in a discussion.