There are many questions I have in mind when reading about the Creator God explanation given by Christians, especially in relation to the dependent arising of causes and conditions, the world has no beginning kind of concepts explained by Buddhists.
Some questions go like this for me:
1) If God created everything, then did He also create religions like Buddhism and others?
2) Since God created man, did He also create the historical Siddartha Gautama, who later became the historical Buddha?
I am rather hesitant to pose such questions directly to Christians or followers of other God-centric religions, for the concern that some of them might label the Buddha or Buddhism to be some kind of work done by the Devil. This is because I understand the severity of resultant karma in slandering the Triple Gems, out of ignorance or pure malice.
The 'God wants to allow for free will' explanation that I have heard many times somehow doesn't really provide much of an insight for me. Sometimes I wish I have more opportunities to meet and ask Christian turned Buddhist converts about such questions and listen to their explanations. I don't have any official statistics, but it seems that there are more Buddhist turned Christians in comparison, so I guess my next best choice is online forums like these.
#1 is quite funny.
Hi Spnw07,
sorry may i know what conclusion are u looking for the end of this thread?
it seems there is a tendency of breeding ill will after i read this thread - what will the christians think?
Dear Spnw07,
Well, if I were a Christian, I would say that Buddhism was not created by God. It was created by Buddha, himself a man and nothing more. God created Buddha along with his wisdom and compassion. But it was the Buddha who taught and that became Buddhism. Some Christians even say that because Buddha never acknowledged nor worshipped God that he is right now in hell. That's BS of course.
Free will? If we all have free will, no one will wish to be born in Africa and starve to death! We don't have free will when we first born. We have free will on minor decisions but I believe everyone wish to have free will on where and when we were born and where, how and when we die.
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:Free will? If we all have free will, no one will wish to be born in Africa and starve to death! We don't have free will when we first born. We have free will on minor decisions but I believe everyone wish to have free will on where and when we were born and where, how and when we die.
Hey Dawnfirstlight,
What you are talking is the effects of karma. People born in Africa is the result of karma and people who are born in such places were once like you and me. They had all the opportunities as we have but wasted it on bad actions that resulted in such a negative rebirth. We do however have the free will to engage in either positive or negative actions. That would be the deciding factor for our future happiness or suffering.
Originally posted by Steveyboy:Hey Dawnfirstlight,
What you are talking is the effects of karma. People born in Africa is the result of karma and people who are born in such places were once like you and me. They had all the opportunities as we have but wasted it on bad actions that resulted in such a negative rebirth. We do however have the free will to engage in either positive or negative actions. That would be the deciding factor for our future happiness or suffering.
Yes, you are correct. Free will in Buddhism and Christianity are different. I believe your explanation of free will.
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:Yes, you are correct. Free will in Buddhism and Christianity are different. I believe your explanation of free will.
Dear Dawnfirstlight,
Actually, it is not negative karma that any being has no affinity with Buddhism as I had alluded to earlier. It is the lack of merit or any affinity with the 3 Jewels. Hence, the construction of large Buddha images and temples along with other representations of the 3 Jewels are so important and the larger it is, the more benefit because more being would be able to glean a blessing or a seed. In fact, even if the connection may be negative like for example, a bird poops on a Buddha statue. The negative connection with the Buddha in that manner will one day bring the mind stream of the bird into Dharma. That's the amazing power and blessing of a fully enlightened Buddha.
Originally posted by 2009novice:Hi Spnw07,
sorry may i know what conclusion are u looking for the end of this thread?
it seems there is a tendency of breeding ill will after i read this thread - what will the christians think?
There is no conclusion to be found for fundamental differences in religious teaching, I'm afraid.
Christianity teaches forbearance and love for all. Followers of such teachings will not allow ill-will to breed inside them. They will seek to reach out to others with love and wisdom. Let us have faith in them.
Originally posted by Steveyboy:Dear Spnw07,
Well, if I were a Christian, I would say that Buddhism was not created by God. It was created by Buddha, himself a man and nothing more. God created Buddha along with his wisdom and compassion. But it was the Buddha who taught and that became Buddhism. Some Christians even say that because Buddha never acknowledged nor worshipped God that he is right now in hell. That's BS of course.
I see. It is likely that such explanations may come forward.
1) If God created everything, then did He also create religions like Buddhism and others?
2) Since God created man, did He also create the historical Siddartha Gautama, who later became the historical Buddha?
As far as triple gem, it is inherent, not external, although external is also from internal. Buddhist be liberal in slandering triple gems as no one is able to slander inherent gems besides slandering themselves. Buddhist to detach from this dogma for freedom from attachment over it.
The above creation is a one sided understanding, misrepresentation and dogma on God by followers. Science believed is big bang, arises from an imperceptible motion beyond senses. As far as God as the creator in the believe system of christianity, there is an external heaven and external God, and people are inferior to God.
Truly the Bible explanation of God system is an external God similar as chinese folks belief of a - God of heaven.
Christianity teaches forbearance and love for all
The above is good for the well beings. It needs not high intellectuality for forbearance and love all. Buddhists to rejoice in their approach. The likely problem of them is that upon the above is overwhelming, there is chance of being a dogma to disdain other religions of non loving and acceptance, and common ground may not be able to achieve by most christians of now and future. Possibility that their ancestors are not love by them wholeheartedly as their deep love, respect, awe is only to God Christian. God Allah also will be disdain or challenge from this dogma. It is quite disasterous to them in long term peace of themselves. May all be peace, lovely and generous to the needies.
Originally posted by Spnw07:There are many questions I have in mind when reading about the Creator God explanation given by Christians, especially in relation to the dependent arising of causes and conditions, the world has no beginning kind of concepts explained by Buddhists.
Some questions go like this for me:
1) If God created everything, then did He also create religions like Buddhism and others?
2) Since God created man, did He also create the historical Siddartha Gautama, who later became the historical Buddha?
I am rather hesitant to pose such questions directly to Christians or followers of other God-centric religions, for the concern that some of them might label the Buddha or Buddhism to be some kind of work done by the Devil. This is because I understand the severity of resultant karma in slandering the Triple Gems, out of ignorance or pure malice.
The 'God wants to allow for free will' explanation that I have heard many times somehow doesn't really provide much of an insight for me. Sometimes I wish I have more opportunities to meet and ask Christian turned Buddhist converts about such questions and listen to their explanations. I don't have any official statistics, but it seems that there are more Buddhist turned Christians in comparison, so I guess my next best choice is online forums like these.
There is no need to fear asking questions regarding Christianity. So long as it is not with malice all questions should be welcome. Allow me to attempt to answer the two questions posed.
1. Care must be taken with the statement "God created everything". The correct view would be that God created that which was mentioned in Genesis 1. Since then God sustained the creation. So it would not be correct to say that God created other religions.
2. Flowing from the above point, God did not create Buddha the man directly. But God created Adam through who came the rest of mankind, including Buddha.
The argument from free will actually provides a lot of the answer. Of course whether the answer satisfy you or not is a rather subjective matter. I find a good way to address the challenges to the notion of free will is to ask the question, "Did you decide to ask the question challenging free will? If the choice was exercised, why think otherwise?"
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
2. Flowing from the above point, God did not create Buddha the man directly. But God created Adam through who came the rest of mankind, including Buddha.
so through came the first issue of incest between their children and their children's children. oh mind.
Originally posted by sinweiy:so through came the first issue of incest between their children and their children's children. oh mind.
Since God created Adam and Eve and told them to be fruitful and multiply, then logically it means that in the beginning siblings must have married each other or their cousins as the human population increases, bearing in mind that Gen 5:4 tells us that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters besides Cain, Abel and Seth. In fact, when you marry someone you ALWAYS marry a relative since we are all descended from Adam and Eve. If you are not marrying a relative then you aren't marrying a human being!
Regarding incest, you should know that it was only forbidden at the time of Moses. What this means is that prior to the time of Moses it was not regarded as incest and wrong. Why then the law against it? I believe that it is because of the genetic load that has accumulated since the time of the Fall. Thus marriages between close relatives i.e. siblings are forbidden.
Having said that, how does Buddhism address this issue? I mean, you can't just attempt to fault the Bible but not tell me your solution? If your argument against the Bible is valid (assuming only for the sake of argument), what would you then believe about how the human race increased in numbers? I would love to hear your answer that would avoid this charge of incest.
Incest (agammagamaṇa, literally ‘going to what should not be gone to,’ or adhamma raga, ‘wrong desire’), is sexual behaviour between close relatives. Incest is sometimes thought of as sexual contact between a parent and child or between siblings, but many cultures consider even sex between second or third cousins to be incestuous. Incest between parents and children and between siblings existed in ancient India. The Vedas include several myths in which the gods commit incest; e.g. Agni, Brahma and PrajÄ�pati. It is occasionally mentioned in Buddhist literature too. In the Udaya JÄ�taka the Bodhisattva is a prince who is compelled to marry his half-sister. Although the two sleep in the same room for many years they remain celibate (Ja.IV,105). In the Dasaratha JÄ�taka the princes RÄ�ma and Lakkhaṇa marry their sister (Ja.IV,130). As with many ancient peoples the SÄ�kyans, the tribe the Buddha belonged to, had a myth about their origins which included brother-sister incest. When the Koliyans were involved in a dispute with the Sakyans they taunted them by sayings that they ‘cohabited with their sisters like dogs, jackals and other animals’ (Ja.V,413).
During the Buddha’s life there was an incident where a nun became infatuated with her son who was a monk and had sex with him, an offence entailing expulsion from the Saá¹…gha (Vin.III,35). When this was brought to the Buddha’s attention he said, ‘Does not this foolish man know that a mother shall not lust after her son or a son after his mother?’ (A.III,67-8). Perhaps referring to this incident the Buddha also said, ‘Shame and fear of blame, are the two states that protect the world. If they did not protect the world it would not be clear who was one’s mother or mother’s sister, one’s uncle’s wife and the world would fall into confusion. The promiscuity seen amongst goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, dogs and jackals would prevail.’ (A.I,51).
Originally posted by sinweiy:
kind of think of it, it's agreed that people do marry a relative in some way. we do say the possibility of ones' dead grandparent be reborn back as their new born children, or one's lovers are once your parent in the past, etc. but this are all samsaric/desire that need to be purified in the end.at least our "genesis" is about devas that came from heavenly realms that slowly their greed, turn them into human and through came the rest of mankind. it didn't start with two person, it started with many.ps: time of the Fall is something i cannot find info on the net./\
And how is your devas turned humans not any less "magical"? At least the Bible says that God created man and woman (thus establishing the origins of marriage as between one man and one woman and the notion of husband and wife as one flesh) and through whom the rest of humankind came from. Yours is that devas just turned into humans i.e. the origins of humans are not explained, they are just accepted as one manifestation of rebirth. In short, the first man just popped into existence. When did this happen?
As to time of the Fall, the Bible does not specify the time. But it probably took place not too long after the events in Genesis 1.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:And how is your devas turned humans not any less "magical"? At least the Bible says that God created man and woman (thus establishing the origins of marriage as between one man and one woman and the notion of husband and wife as one flesh) and through whom the rest of humankind came from. Yours is that devas just turned into humans i.e. the origins of humans are not explained, they are just accepted as one manifestation of rebirth. In short, the first man just popped into existence. When did this happen?
As to time of the Fall, the Bible does not specify the time. But it probably took place not too long after the events in Genesis 1.
no what, they are not human at first, if u mean the origin of devas or sentient beings in samsara, then the infinity world systems/universe/samsara never have a real origin, as it's falsehood, given the analogy of the mistaken rope as a snake.
it's like asking can u find an origin of u in your dream?
yes, u just pop into the dream at night. samsara is the dream with no beginning. when one woke up, u are the Buddha, The Awaken One.
i think ours is more rational in scientific way in term of "alien" beings, u can imagine the coming of some "alien" transparent beings, eaten some food and slowly living here become non transparent and cannot fly anymore. ours are more gradual through times. they both have quite the same "image of man". these fallen devas can live for hundred of thousands of yrs in the beginning and reincarnate into human. the life span of human decreases and increases through times too depending on their deeds.
the concept of time is
time
The Buddhist teaching about time is closely linked to the doctrine of impermanence (see entry). What we see as the passage of time when analyzed in large segments becomes ungraspable when analyzed on the level of single moments of time. Nonetheless, when operating on the ordinary level of discourse, the Buddha taught about the passage of time on both the macrocosmic and microcosmic levels. Just as all beings are born, grow old, get sick and die, so too do entire world-systems come into being, achieve stasis, decay, and cease to be. And every moment of thought can also be seen as coming into being, abiding, decaying, and disappearing.
The length of the process on the level of a world system is called a great aeon, or mahakalpa in Sanskrit. The length of a mahakalpa is calculated as follows: "Starting from a lifespan of ten years, for every hundred years the age of people increases by one year, and their height increases by one inch. This keeps on increasing until the lifespan of humans reaches a full 84,000 years. Then this is followed by a process of decrease in the same ratio. For every hundred years, there is a decrease of a year and an inch from the lifespan and the height of a human being, until his age reaches ten years again. One complete process of increase and decrease makes up one kalpa--16,798,000 years. A thousand of these make up on small kalpa. Twenty small kalpas make up one medium-sized kalpa. Four medium-sized kalpas make up one great kalpa (1,343,800,000,000 years). Each of the four stages takes up twenty small kalpas--twenty kalpas for coming into being, twenty kalpas for dwelling, twenty kalpas for decaying, and twenty kalpas for going empty." (EDR I)
"The very first kalpa [of a particular world-system] , of course, begins the cycle of coming into being, stasis, decay, and emptiness. Those four terms are explained as follows. A thousand small kalpas together make up a middle sized kalpa. One middleÄ sized kalpa covers a period of coming into being. A period of stasis also spans twenty small kalpas, a period of decay is twenty small kalpas long, and a period of emptiness is also twenty small kalpas.
"'But,' you say, ' I can't possibly conceive of that long a period of time.' Well, if you can't grasp this concept, then I'll shrink the kalpa down a bit for you to enable you to understand. Let's discuss the lifespan of a person. A person's lifespan extends for several decades, and those years span the time of being born, the time of growing old, the time of sickness, and the time of death. Those four different periods of time are synonymous with the coming into being, stasis, decay, and emptiness of a worldÄ system. http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/BuddhistDict/BDT.html
/\
Originally posted by Spnw07:There are many questions I have in mind when reading about the Creator God explanation given by Christians, especially in relation to the dependent arising of causes and conditions, the world has no beginning kind of concepts explained by Buddhists.
Some questions go like this for me:
1) If God created everything, then did He also create religions like Buddhism and others?
2) Since God created man, did He also create the historical Siddartha Gautama, who later became the historical Buddha?
I am rather hesitant to pose such questions directly to Christians or followers of other God-centric religions, for the concern that some of them might label the Buddha or Buddhism to be some kind of work done by the Devil. This is because I understand the severity of resultant karma in slandering the Triple Gems, out of ignorance or pure malice.
The 'God wants to allow for free will' explanation that I have heard many times somehow doesn't really provide much of an insight for me. Sometimes I wish I have more opportunities to meet and ask Christian turned Buddhist converts about such questions and listen to their explanations. I don't have any official statistics, but it seems that there are more Buddhist turned Christians in comparison, so I guess my next best choice is online forums like these.
Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:Hello BroInChrist. I read a passage in Genesis I think, it was written God walks with Adam in paradize…how is that…I mean God has forms and shapes? Thanks.
God is Spirit and thus He has no physical form. However, God is able to take on any form He chooses to appear to man. He can manifest His presence in a burning bush to Moses or in human form to Abraham or Adam. Please see also
http://creation.com/does-god-have-body-parts
Originally posted by sinweiy:
no what, they are not human at first, if u mean the origin of devas or sentient beings in samsara, then the infinity world systems/universe/samsara never have a real origin, as it's falsehood, given the analogy of the mistaken rope as a snake. it's like asking can u find an origin of u in your dream? yes, u just pop into the dream at night. samsara is the dream with no beginning. when one woke up, u are the Buddha, The Awaken One.i think ours is more rational in scientific way in term of "alien" beings, u can imagine the coming of some "alien" transparent beings, eaten some food and slowly living here become non transparent and cannot fly anymore. ours are more gradual through times. they both have quite the same "image of man". these fallen devas can live for hundred of thousands of yrs in the beginning and reincarnate into human. the life span of human decreases and increases through times too depending on their deeds.
the concept of time is
time
The Buddhist teaching about time is closely linked to the doctrine of impermanence (see entry). What we see as the passage of time when analyzed in large segments becomes ungraspable when analyzed on the level of single moments of time. Nonetheless, when operating on the ordinary level of discourse, the Buddha taught about the passage of time on both the macrocosmic and microcosmic levels. Just as all beings are born, grow old, get sick and die, so too do entire world-systems come into being, achieve stasis, decay, and cease to be. And every moment of thought can also be seen as coming into being, abiding, decaying, and disappearing.
The length of the process on the level of a world system is called a great aeon, or mahakalpa in Sanskrit. The length of a mahakalpa is calculated as follows: "Starting from a lifespan of ten years, for every hundred years the age of people increases by one year, and their height increases by one inch. This keeps on increasing until the lifespan of humans reaches a full 84,000 years. Then this is followed by a process of decrease in the same ratio. For every hundred years, there is a decrease of a year and an inch from the lifespan and the height of a human being, until his age reaches ten years again. One complete process of increase and decrease makes up one kalpa--16,798,000 years. A thousand of these make up on small kalpa. Twenty small kalpas make up one medium-sized kalpa. Four medium-sized kalpas make up one great kalpa (1,343,800,000,000 years). Each of the four stages takes up twenty small kalpas--twenty kalpas for coming into being, twenty kalpas for dwelling, twenty kalpas for decaying, and twenty kalpas for going empty." (EDR I)
"The very first kalpa [of a particular world-system] , of course, begins the cycle of coming into being, stasis, decay, and emptiness. Those four terms are explained as follows. A thousand small kalpas together make up a middle sized kalpa. One middleÄ sized kalpa covers a period of coming into being. A period of stasis also spans twenty small kalpas, a period of decay is twenty small kalpas long, and a period of emptiness is also twenty small kalpas.
"'But,' you say, ' I can't possibly conceive of that long a period of time.' Well, if you can't grasp this concept, then I'll shrink the kalpa down a bit for you to enable you to understand. Let's discuss the lifespan of a person. A person's lifespan extends for several decades, and those years span the time of being born, the time of growing old, the time of sickness, and the time of death. Those four different periods of time are synonymous with the coming into being, stasis, decay, and emptiness of a worldÄ system. http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/BuddhistDict/BDT.html
/\
If so, then basically you are saying that all things and beings are eternal since all they do is go through countless rebirths. Yet such a notion is highly problematic!
Your idea of devas is hardly scientific. We are talking about the spirit realm, are we not? Aliens? You really want to invoke ETs? You talk about fallen devas, which means they were unfallen to begin with. Yet they were also eternal because of infinite worlds?
You mentioned re time the age of humans as 84,000 years. Please explain what you mean by that. Humans living up to 84,000 years? As to lifespan of humans, the question is, how is the origin of life accounted for? Surely before you talk about death and decay you must explain life and living. The Bible provides the information for this both.