Don't understand what this means

• Metta with Mindfulness

  30 Mar 13, 22:51

  Hi,

  Just wondering why the auther said the observer has no emotion in the below context?

  "The observer has no emotions. It's like a mirror. Everything just passes in front of it. The mirror makes no judgment. Whenever we judge, we've added another thought that needs to be labeled. The observer is not criticial. Judging is not something the observer does. The observer simply watches or reflects, like a mirror. If garbage passes in front of it, it reflects garbage. If roses pass in front of it, it reflects roses. The mirror remains a miror, an empty mirror. The observer doesn't even accept; it just observes."

   

  Observer simply watches whatever reflected in mirror without fabrication of thought. This includes the emotion that arise.  Right?

  Question 2: Emotion itself is awareness? 

  Question 3: Can emotion be arised from wisdom? Emotion such as the four immeasurables quality.

  Question 4: Or are all emotion arised from ignorance?

• Jui

  30 Mar 13, 23:50

  Q1: Yup. The observer has no emotion because when no emotion is being felt, the observer is still there.

  Q2: Well, everything can be awareness. But beware of making awareness into a "thing"

  Q3 and 4 I don't know how to answer, but enlightened people often/always seem quite happy and contented, so I guess it can :P 

   

• zeus29

  31 Mar 13, 01:02

  Excellent questions. I don't think emotions are product of awareness. Through awareness one is mindful of the emotions that arises and passes and without clinging to it whether  pleasant or unpleasant. Equanimity. See it as it is. Rising and passing away.

  I think you're progressing and I highly recommend that you sign up for a vipassana retreat. Try www.dhamma.org it will help you understand much better and at an experiential level.

• Aik TC

  31 Mar 13, 01:06

   

  Compassion is the active component of Wisdom. When one had perfected one’s wisdom it does not mean that one have become totally emotionless, but it would mean the ending of delusion, of greed and all those emotions that are considered of negative values. Emotions do not exclusively arise from ignorance but also from our wisdom as well.

• sinweiy

  31 Mar 13, 08:51

  i think when common people use the word emotion they mostly mean the defilement part of emotions. see wiki. other than contentment, the rest all negative. love is attachment and not the selfless compassion.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion

   

  • Affection
  • Anger
  • Angst
  • Anguish
  • Annoyance
  • Anxiety
  • Apathy
  • Arousal
  • Awe
  • Boredom
  • Contempt
  • Contentment
  • Courage
  • Curiosity
  • Depression
  • Desire
  • Despair
  • Disappointment
  • Disgust
  • Distrust
  • Dread
  • Ecstasy
  • Embarrassment
  • Envy
  • Euphoria
  • Excitement
  • Fear
  • Frustration
  • Gratitude
  • Grief
  • Guilt
  • Happiness
  • Hatred
  • Hope
  • Horror
  • Hostility
  • Hurt
  • Hysteria
  • Indifference
  • Interest
  • Jealousy
  • Joy
  • Loathing
  • Loneliness
  • Love
  • Lust
  • Outrage
  • Panic
  • Passion
  • Pity
  • Pleasure
  • Pride
  • Rage
  • Regret
  • Remorse
  • Sadness
  • Satisfaction
  • Shame
  • Shock
  • Shyness
  • Sorrow
  • Suffering
  • Surprise
  • Terror
  • Trust
  • Wonder
  • Worry
  • Zeal
  • Zest

  
  

  so how would an enlightened being have negative current?

  
  

  
  

  /\

   

• sinweiy

  31 Mar 13, 08:53

   

   There are 52 mental currents (or mental states) in the mind. The first one is the evolution current derived from previous life. This current produces additional six currents and together they are called the seven common currents, These seven common currents in turn produce 6 supplement currents. All these 13 currents together produce the 17 reflective waves or thought moments, These reflective waves, being influenced by consciousness derived from the sense organs produced the 14 defilements and 25 purities. (See Chart 12& Chart 13)

        The inter-reaction of defilements and purities are indicated in the following manner:

  14 defilements : 25 purities

  Main ones: Nullified By

  Greed          :  Benevolence

  Hatred    :  Loving sympathy

  Ignorance  :  Knowledge

   

        Purifies in the mind tend to move to the centre of the mind, while defilements at the outer part completely cover the mind. When the reflective waves arrive, they cut through and push the layers of the defilements to allow purities to spring to the surface. The clarity of the mind depends on the strength of purities. Once the force of the reflective waves recedes, defilements close the mind completely again. (See Chart 14A).

        There are 7 tissues of defilements covering the mind. The first one is weak and the rest are progressively deeper and stronger. The 6 supplement currents persistently cutting through from the second layer to the seventh layer, thus allowing the mind to have contact with the environment. (See Chart 14B).

        When there are more purities in the mind, further purities can enter the mind in full force, while defilements can enter only with reduced force. On the other hand when the mind has more defilements, further defilements can enter with full force, while purities can only enter with reduced force. Purities and defilements tend to offset each other especially when they are of equal strength. Strong impressions suppress weaker impressions, but when a stronger impression is spent, the growing weak impression will become strong ones. (See Chart 15).

        Intelligence is a liability to the evil doer, because while doing evil, his inner consciousness (mindfulness) is being used. The result will be multiple strength of defilements. In other words, the intention of evil deeds of higher beings is much stronger than that of the lower one. (See Chart 15.6 & Chart 16A)

        Consciousness, a result of supplement currents reacting on reflective waves, creates mental states, which in turn influence consciousness. For example, defilements of attachment, ill will and ignorance originated from first 8 consciousness, 9th & 10th consciousness and 11th & 12th consciousness respectively (see Chart 7) may be reduced or increased by existing mental states in the mind. (See Chart 15).

        The mind forever has at least a little purity, which prevents defilements to destroy the mind completely. As this little purity grows, the lowest lives raise themselves to higher levels. From higher levels some of them may continue to climb to the summit, while others may be distracted once more by ignorance and craving and fall to the lower levels again. (See Chart 16B).

        The mind, in order to gather substance to form the body, is using abstract heat as a tool in the early part of life, but in the later part, heat revolts against it, making it suffer. The body and even the world will decay and disintegrate. The Intelligent beings, trying so hard to build an environment cozy to themselves, eventually find themselves betrayed to destruction.

        All beings, including plant lives, live for themselves and not for human beings or others. For development purpose, it is wrong to extensively destroy plant lives and pollute the environment, because very soon this planet will be unfit for human habitation.

        Each plant, like other beings, also has a unit of mind, which eventually can become a Buddha.

        This is the nature of the mind.

   

   Chart 13

  LIST OF MENTAL STATES

  (A) Common Currents:

  (1) Contact (Phasa)

  (2) Feeling (Vedana)

  (3) Perception (Sanna)

  (5) Concentraction (Ekaggata)

  (6) Psychic Life (Jivitindriya)

  (7) Attention (Manasikara)

  (B) Supplement Currents:

  (1) Deliberation (Vitaka)

  (2) Examination (Vicara)

  (3) Determination (Adhimokka)

  (4) Effort (Viriya)

  (5) Pleasure (Piti)

  (6) Consent (Chana)

  (C) Defilements:

  (1) Ignorance (Moha)

  (2) Shamelessness to evil actions (Ahirika)

  (3) Fearlessness to evil actions (Anotappa,

  (4) Restlenness (Uddhacca)

  (5) Greed (Lobha)

  (6) Wrong perception (Ditthi)

  (7) Conceit (Mana)

  (8) Hatred (Dosa)

  (9) Jealousy (Issa)

  (10) Stinginess (Macchariya)

  (11) Remorse (Kukucca)

  (12) Sloth (Thina)

  (13) Torpor (Middha)

  (14) Indecision(Vicikiccha)

  _______

  (D) Purities:

  (1) Confidence (Sadda)

  (2) Mindfulness (Sati)

  (3) Shamefulness to evil actions (Hiri)

  (4) Fearfulness to evil actions (Otappa)

  (5) Loving charity (Alobha)

  (6) Loving sympathy (Adosa)

  (7) Equanimity (Tatramajjhata)

  (8) Tranquility to body action (Kayapassaddhi)

  (9) Tranquility to mental action (Cittapassadhi)

  (10) Lightness of mental properties (Kayalahuta)

  (11) Lightness of the mind (Citta Lahuta)

  (12) Softness of mental properties (Kaya muduta.)

  (13) Softnesss of the mind (citta muduta)

  (14) Fitness of mental properties (Kaya kammannata)

  (I5) Fitness of mind (citta kammannata)

  (16) Proficiency of mental properties (Kaya pagunnata)

  (17) Proficiency of the mind (Citta pagunnata)

  (I8) Physical uprightness (Kayujjukata)

  (19) Mental uprightness (Cittujjukata)

  (20) Correct speech (Samma Vaca)

  (21) Correct industry (Samma Kammanta)

  (22) Correct livelihood (Samma Ajiva)

  (23) Universal compassion (Karuna)

  (24) Sympathetic Joy (Mudita)

  (25) Wisdom (Panna)

   

   

  http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/425491

• Aik TC

  31 Mar 13, 13:44

   

  "The observer has no emotions. It's like a mirror. Everything just passes in front of it. The mirror makes no judgment. Whenever we judge, we've added another thought that needs to be labeled. The observer is not criticial. Judging is not something the observer does. The observer simply watches or reflects, like a mirror. If garbage passes in front of it, it reflects garbage. If roses pass in front of it, it reflects roses. The mirror remains a miror, an empty mirror. The observer doesn't even accept; it just observes."

   

  Putting it in another way, the above mirror simile stated is a reference to our Mind. One of the characteristic of our Mind is its reflexive capability. Because of this nature, whenever an image is present from our senses or thoughts, the present of our Mind is also made known simultaneously. It is a ‘self awareness’ of the ‘existence’ of a Mind. This self awareness is the ‘observer’ that is state above. But because of ignorance, it also mistakenly takes the Mind as an existing Self.

   Emotions are the products of our thoughts. AEN posting, the ‘Buddha Mind’ on page 2 should provide some answers to your questions and also the empty nature of Mind itself.

   

• simpo_

  31 Mar 13, 23:12

  Originally posted by Metta with Mindfulness:

  Hi,

  Just wondering why the auther said the observer has no emotion in the below context?

  "The observer has no emotions. It's like a mirror. Everything just passes in front of it. The mirror makes no judgment. Whenever we judge, we've added another thought that needs to be labeled. The observer is not criticial. Judging is not something the observer does. The observer simply watches or reflects, like a mirror. If garbage passes in front of it, it reflects garbage. If roses pass in front of it, it reflects roses. The mirror remains a miror, an empty mirror. The observer doesn't even accept; it just observes."

   

  Observer simply watches whatever reflected in mirror without fabrication of thought. This includes the emotion that arise.  Right?

  Question 2: Emotion itself is awareness? 

  Question 3: Can emotion be arised from wisdom? Emotion such as the four immeasurables quality.

  Question 4: Or are all emotion arised from ignorance?

  The author is writing from I AM stage experience. At this stage, there is an impression of an observer/eternal witness passively watching phenomena. When there is no thought, the 'Observer' will be experienced as all-pervading aka borderless.

  At this stage, the author has not realised that there is no observer.... aka no-self insight.

• An Eternal Now

  1 Apr 13, 12:29

  Indeed, like Simpo said, it is talking about the I AM stage experience and insight. (see: Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment)
  
  However, I checked the author, it is by the Zen teacher Charlotte J. Beck. She obviously realized no-self but points to the Observer as an interim stage.
  
  
  Related excerpts from 'Everyday Zen' by Charlotte Joko Beck:
  
  I have been asked, "Isn't observing a dualistic practice? Because when we are observing, something is observing something else." But in fact it's not dualistic. The observer is empty. Instead of a separate observer, we should say there is just observing. There is no one that hears, there is just hearing. There is no one that sees, there is just seeing. But we don't quite grasp that. If we practice hard enough, however, we learn that not only is the observer empty, but that which is observed is also empty. At this point the observer (or witness) collapses. This is the final stage of practice, we don't need to worry about it. Why does the observer finally collapse? When nothing sees nothing, what do we have? Just the wonder of life. There is no one who is separated from anything. There is just life living itself: hearing, touching, seeing, smelling, thinking. That is the state of love or compassion: not "It is I," but "It is Thou."
  
  ..................
  
  And to substitute one conditioning for another is to miss the point of practice. The point is not that a positive emotion is better than a negative one, but that all thoughts and emotions are impermanent, changing, or (in Buddhist terms) empty. They have no reality whatsoever. Our only freedom is in knowing, from years of observation and experiencing, that all personally centered thoughts and emotions (and the actions born of them) are empty. They are empty; but if they are not seen as empty they can be harmful. When we realize this we can abandon them. When we do, very naturally we enter the space of wonder.
  
  This space of wonder - entering into heaven - opens when we are no longer caught up in ourselves: when no longer "It is I," but "It is Thou." I am all things when there is no barrier.
  
  ..................
  
  What does it mean to shatter our usual way of seeing our life? My ordinary experience of life is centered around myself. After all, I am experiencing these ongoing impressions - I can't have your experience of your life. I always have my own. And what inevitably happens is that I come to believe that there is an "I" central to my life, since the experiences of my life seem to be centered around "I". "I" see, "I" hear, "I" feel, "I" think, "I" have this opinion. We rarely question this "I." Now in the enlightened state there is no "I"; there is simply life itself, a pulsation of timeless energy whose very nature includes -or is - everything.
  
  ..................
  
  To talk on the razor's edge is to do that; we have once again to be what we basically are, which is seeing, touching, hearing, smelling; we have to experience whatever our life is, right this second. If we're upset we have to experience being upset. If we're frightened, we have to experience being frightened. If we're jealous we have to experience being jealous. And such experiencing is physical; it has nothing to do with the thoughts going on about the upset.
  
  ..................
  
  It's not that "I" hear the birds, it's just hearing the birds. Let yourself be seeing, hearing, thinking. That is what sitting is. It is the false "I" that interrupts the wonder with the constant desire to think about "I." And all the while the wonder is occurring, the birds sing, the cars go by, the body sensations continue, the heart beating - life is a second-by-second miracle, but dreaming our I-dreams we miss it. So let's just sit with what may seem like confusion. Just feel it, be it, appreciate it. Then we may more often see through the false dream which obscures our life. And then, what is there?
  
  ..................
  
  Since we can only live our lives through our minds and bodies, there is no one who is not a psychological being. We have thoughts, we have hopes, we can be hurt, we can be upset. But the real solution must come from a dimension which is radically different from the psychological one. The practice of nonattachment, the growth of no-self, is the key to understanding. Finally we realize that there is no path, no way, no solution; because from the beginning our nature is the path, right here and right now. Because there is no path our practice is to follow this no-path endlessly - and for no reward. Because no-self is everything it needs no reward: from the no-beginning it is itself complete fulfillment.

• Nyorai

  15 Apr 13, 14:55

  "The observer has no emotions. It's like a mirror. Everything just passes in front of it. The mirror makes no judgment. Whenever we judge, we've added another thought that needs to be labeled. The observer is not criticial. Judging is not something the observer does. The observer simply watches or reflects, like a mirror. If garbage passes in front of it, it reflects garbage. If roses pass in front of it, it reflects roses. The mirror remains a miror, an empty mirror. The observer doesn't even accept; it just observes."

  This is Buddha nature of all or Bodhicitta. According to the Avatamsaka or Flower Adornment Sutra, all beings having inherent buddhaness, but is mired by ignorance, discrimination and attachment that resulted not attainable. 

  Knowing this is actually not understanding and needless to mention realization and actualization. Knowing through understanding is true faith, from true faith embarks into true practice of realization and into actualization. 

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