Wrote in a group today:
Focusing on the 'Now' is not the key to liberation.
As my friend Longchen/Simpo wrote in 2008:
"Firstly, will like to state that I am still learning... so this is just a sharing.
To me, the 'Now' concept can be quite misleading.
What
is more important for me is to expereince no-self in what is happening.
It doesn't matter whether there are thoughts or not. There is a
difference in experiencing the world through a self and one without it.
This to me is more important.
The
Now concept can put one into a state of wanting to get into such a
state. This will cause a thinking that there is a Now state and a
non-now state... and that the Now state is better.
However,
the insight of spontaneous manifestation will change this view.
Spontaneous manifestion need a clear understanding and experience of
no-self. Here, it doesn't matter whether there are thoughts, feelings or
not... these expereinces are arising not from a self... and cannot be
stopped by a self.
From
the practice point of view, meditation is essential. It is also
important to have the ability to realise one's blindspots... that is
when one is unconsciously caught up. This can be very very subtle... and
hard to discover... and presented the main difficulties for me.
The conceptual understanding is much easier that the realtime practice."
In 17 December 2008 I asked Thusness after Longchen (Simpo/Sim Pern Chong's posting):
(9:57
PM) AEN: btw wats the difference between 'now' and spontaneous
arising.. to remain in 'now' doesnt mean there's no sense of self isit?
and there's still the sense of effort to achieve or sustain the state
(10:00 PM) Thusness: 'Now' is a concept for what they really want to convey is a direct experience of a sense of presence.
(10:00 PM) Thusness: spontaneous arising is different. It relates to 'effortlessness'.
(10:02 PM) Thusness: it relates to the direct experience of what liberation is.
(10:07
PM) Thusness: what they want to bring across to the readers is to tell
them not to lost themselves in stories so that they missed the direct
experience of 'Presence'.
(10:07 PM) Thusness: This is just the first step.
(10:08 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:09 PM) Thusness: Stressing the importance of 'Now' has no other purpose other than that.
(10:09 PM) Thusness: What longchen said is a more important truth.
....
In August 2008:
(8:27 PM) Thusness: what is so great about being 'Now'?
(8:28 PM) AEN: because 'now' is the only reality?
(8:28 PM) Thusness: so what is so great about 'Reality'?
(8:29 PM) AEN: its clear and liberating?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: ???
(8:30 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha tell u that being in the 'Now' moment u will be liberated?
(8:30 PM) AEN: no
(8:30 PM) Thusness: then why u say that?
(8:31 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:31 PM) AEN: by clearly perceiving the true nature of the 'now' moment then there is liberation?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: no such thing.
(8:31 PM) AEN: icic
(8:31 PM) Thusness: It was derived.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: By some practitioners and masters.
(8:32 PM) AEN: being "now" means going pre symbolic?
(8:32 PM) AEN: oic
So, we should only speak of the "now" as a concept and "staying in the now" as skillful means?
Thanks for this post! It helps to clarify what I'm experiencing(I think).
I have been focusing on the now for some time, but as I've mentioned else where, I've recently been having an experience of presence. I've used the "now" as a gateway to the feeling of presence, and this post helps clarify how that may occur.
I have not clearly recognized, until now, the difference between the two. I feel a difference in experience but have not to able to intellectually distinguish the two. The "effortlessness" which thusness speaks about, regarding spontaneous arising, is very recognizable in what I experience. Like wise, the need for effort to maintain the "now state" is exactly my experience as well.
I came across a statement that seemed to really resonate with me right now. To paraphrase:
"If their is no "I", then what is in it's place? What is there? What is where you would expect the "I" to be?"
I've found this line of inquiry to really highlight the feeling of presence and the fact that thoughts and feelings do not arise from "I" as was previously assumed. Seeing in this way allows thoughts and feelings to just be, with no effort to alter there arising or duration.
Brian
Originally posted by Jui:So, we should only speak of the "now" as a concept and "staying in the now" as skillful means?
Yes. For example I just passed The Power of Now to my dad because if he could have a glimpse of I AM Presence that would be good too.
If you have a powerful glimpse of Presence, your whole life will be shifted towards spiritual rather than merely material pursuits.
Originally posted by BrianEleven:Thanks for this post! It helps to clarify what I'm experiencing(I think).
I have been focusing on the now for some time, but as I've mentioned else where, I've recently been having an experience of presence. I've used the "now" as a gateway to the feeling of presence, and this post helps clarify how that may occur.
I have not clearly recognized, until now, the difference between the two. I feel a difference in experience but have not to able to intellectually distinguish the two. The "effortlessness" which thusness speaks about, regarding spontaneous arising, is very recognizable in what I experience. Like wise, the need for effort to maintain the "now state" is exactly my experience as well.
I came across a statement that seemed to really resonate with me right now. To paraphrase:
"If their is no "I", then what is in it's place? What is there? What is where you would expect the "I" to be?"
I've found this line of inquiry to really highlight the feeling of presence and the fact that thoughts and feelings do not arise from "I" as was previously assumed. Seeing in this way allows thoughts and feelings to just be, with no effort to alter there arising or duration.
Brian
Yes you may be having some glimpses of non-doership and spontaneity, though not exactly the anatta that longchen spoke of. When your experience matures into impersonality one may feel that one is not a personal doer but one is being lived, being done, being expressed by a higher power or source. However that is also not yet non dual, or anatta.
It's ok to focus on the Presence for now and continue practicing self-inquiry.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Wrote in a group today:
Focusing on the 'Now' is not the key to liberation.
As my friend Longchen/Simpo wrote in 2008:
"Firstly, will like to state that I am still learning... so this is just a sharing.
To me, the 'Now' concept can be quite misleading.
What is more important for me is to expereince no-self in what is happening. It doesn't matter whether there are thoughts or not. There is a difference in experiencing the world through a self and one without it. This to me is more important.
The Now concept can put one into a state of wanting to get into such a state. This will cause a thinking that there is a Now state and a non-now state... and that the Now state is better.
However, the insight of spontaneous manifestation will change this view. Spontaneous manifestion need a clear understanding and experience of no-self. Here, it doesn't matter whether there are thoughts, feelings or not... these expereinces are arising not from a self... and cannot be stopped by a self.
From the practice point of view, meditation is essential. It is also important to have the ability to realise one's blindspots... that is when one is unconsciously caught up. This can be very very subtle... and hard to discover... and presented the main difficulties for me.
The conceptual understanding is much easier that the realtime practice."
In 17 December 2008 I asked Thusness after Longchen (Simpo/Sim Pern Chong's posting):
(9:57 PM) AEN: btw wats the difference between 'now' and spontaneous arising.. to remain in 'now' doesnt mean there's no sense of self isit? and there's still the sense of effort to achieve or sustain the state
(10:00 PM) Thusness: 'Now' is a concept for what they really want to convey is a direct experience of a sense of presence.
(10:00 PM) Thusness: spontaneous arising is different. It relates to 'effortlessness'.
(10:02 PM) Thusness: it relates to the direct experience of what liberation is.
(10:07 PM) Thusness: what they want to bring across to the readers is to tell them not to lost themselves in stories so that they missed the direct experience of 'Presence'.
(10:07 PM) Thusness: This is just the first step.
(10:08 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:09 PM) Thusness: Stressing the importance of 'Now' has no other purpose other than that.
(10:09 PM) Thusness: What longchen said is a more important truth.
....
In August 2008:
(8:27 PM) Thusness: what is so great about being 'Now'?
(8:28 PM) AEN: because 'now' is the only reality?
(8:28 PM) Thusness: so what is so great about 'Reality'?
(8:29 PM) AEN: its clear and liberating?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: ???
(8:30 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha tell u that being in the 'Now' moment u will be liberated?
(8:30 PM) AEN: no
(8:30 PM) Thusness: then why u say that?
(8:31 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:31 PM) AEN: by clearly perceiving the true nature of the 'now' moment then there is liberation?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: no such thing.
(8:31 PM) AEN: icic
(8:31 PM) Thusness: It was derived.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: By some practitioners and masters.
(8:32 PM) AEN: being "now" means going pre symbolic?
(8:32 PM) AEN: oic
Focusing on the 'Now' is about mindfulness, one of the 7 factors of enlightenment. It is also practice in Vipassana meditation. No doubt the realization of non-self is the objective. Why is such focus on the ‘Now’ not one of the key to liberation?
Mindfulness is not just focusing on now.
Check out: http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/447480?page=1 (Is Mindfulness just present moment awareness? No!)
Thanks for the sharing...
Just some opinion...
The realisation of no-self and the characteristics should lead to a gradual dispassioning. Attachment, desire is 'self'... In meditation, when 'self' is dissolved, the whole lot of attachment, imagination, ideas pertaining to self also all drop... this will result in a kind of release/bliss. When there is release, 'I/you/self' is not there to experience it.
As for the Now/Presence, it is merely the result of a certain condition.. that is the alignment of attention to the Present Moment. That is it. If we focus/or try to go into presence/Now... what may be occuring is the 'self/grasping' grasping towards a certain state. ... 'Now' is merely the resultant experience due to the fulfilling of certain conditions... unbiasely speaking... it is not something that one can attain to or acquire.
From my experience, the insights (no-self, emptiness) served to bring one out of the wrong way of experiencing/understanding. It is work that one needs to practice constantly.. The incorrect way of understanding our experiences/interaction is so ingrained that initial insights do not overturn them permanently.
For example, i still have anger problems... From a ignorant point of view, anger is resulted from not seeing the situation clearly... for in truth, there is only the arising of aggregates and no persons to direct the anger at. But habit dictates that we associates in terms of entities and persons although in actuality there are mere arising of conditions .
Also, my opinion is that, the furthest, Practitioners who live conventional lifestyles (with families, spouses, etc) can attain is Anagami. For Arhatship, there must be a fully relinquishing of lifestyles that continue to re-inforce attachment.
It is when our faculty of mindfulness is aroused that concentration is generated that help us to attend to the content of our experience as it becomes manifest in the immediate present. Reminding ourselves that our mind have wander away from what we are supposed to be do is just another function mindfulness play in our meditative practices and daily way of life.
MN 10 Satipatthana Sutta: Frames of Reference states:
"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?
[1] "There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.
"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns, 'I am making a long turn,' or when making a short turn discerns, 'I am making a short turn'; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long' ... He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'
The above passage shows us that mindfulness is also about the practice of ‘Now’. No doubt terms such as calling to mind, remembrance and recollection are mindfulness as Memory as well.
Thanks Simpo... well said and I concur.
Aik TC: yes present moment is one element of mindfulness practice but not the entirety. Very often, due to lack of insight, the "present moment" becomes reified and grasping occurs. That is why "an eternal now" is a very bad name (it's not created by me btw, i merely took over the forum account) haha
I wrote in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html :
A few months later, even though it has been seen that ‘seeing is always the
sights, sounds, colours and shapes, never a seer’, I began to notice this
subtle remaining tendency to cling to a Here and Now. Somehow, I still want to
return to a Here, a Now, like 'The actual world right here and now', which I can 'ground myself in',
like I needed to ground in something truly existing, like I needed to return to
being actual, here, now, whatever you want to call it. At that point when I
detected this subtle movement I instantly recognised it to be illusory and
dropped it, however I still could not find a natural resolution to that.
Originally posted by simpo_:Thanks for the sharing...
Just some opinion...
The realisation of no-self and the characteristics should lead to a gradual dispassioning. Attachment, desire is 'self'... In meditation, when 'self' is dissolved, the whole lot of attachment, imagination, ideas pertaining to self also all drop... this will result in a kind of release/bliss. When there is release, 'I/you/self' is not there to experience it.
As for the Now/Presence, it is merely the result of a certain condition.. that is the alignment of attention to the Present Moment. That is it. If we focus/or try to go into presence/Now... what may be occuring is the 'self/grasping' grasping towards a certain state. ... 'Now' is merely the resultant experience due to the fulfilling of certain conditions... unbiasely speaking... it is not something that one can attain to or acquire.
From my experience, the insights (no-self, emptiness) served to bring one out of the wrong way of experiencing/understanding. It is work that one needs to practice constantly.. The incorrect way of understanding our experiences/interaction is so ingrained that initial insights do not overturn them permanently.
For example, i still have anger problems... From a ignorant point of view, anger is resulted from not seeing the situation clearly... for in truth, there is only the arising of aggregates and no persons to direct the anger at. But habit dictates that we associates in terms of entities and persons although in actuality there are mere arising of conditions .
Also, my opinion is that, the furthest, Practitioners who live conventional lifestyles (with families, spouses, etc) can attain is Anagami. For Arhatship, there must be a fully relinquishing of lifestyles that continue to re-inforce attachment.
Hi Simpo or AEN,
King Milinda did asked Ven Nagasena whether laypeople can attain Arhatship. The answer was yes from Nagasena's reply... but however, that particular layperson will seek a monk to ordain him/her to monkhood...
just to confirm only on what you think - is it possible?
Indeed there are a couple of cases of laymen attaining arhantship. For example Bahiya attained arahantship upon meeting the Buddha the first time. However he died on that day.
These people generally die on the day or renounce their lay life on that day.
I think the simple reason is that a person who is so thoroughly non attached finds no meaning in getting attached to enjoying lay life, having possessions and so on.
It is generally easier to become a full arahant as a monk though I suppose.
AEN: I take ‘present moments’ as just a process of arising and passing away of the five Skandhas and all that existed around us. It gives me a better feel of what impermanence is all about. Grasping after ‘present moment’ where the ‘Now’ becomes an object of clinging is something I have never thought about. I may have a long way to go yet.
Initially I thought the name ‘An Eternal Now’ would be more at home for used on blog site such as ‘Eternal Hope’. Yea, it is a bad name to use here, maybe you should just shorten it to just the alphabet ‘AEN’?
What books are you talking about? Can you give examples?
Some books may be talking about the I AM Presence (such as Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now): http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
This is still not Buddhist level of enlightenment.