Lisa: "yet the question remains... once everything is known to be
empty zilch, and the knowing of that is set aside as also being empty
zilch, where to look? And for what? I'd thought it was to look for
Ultimate... and am open to other suggestions."
The
idea that there is an ultimate is tied with the idea that there is an
absolute Self or Subject that is separated from phenomena. Emptiness
deconstructs the notion of a subjective self, and objective phenomena,
so that no ultimate can be established as truly existing.
There
must be an experiential realization of anatta for this to be effective.
No-self can be understood in terms of view but it is a whole different
level when experience is experientially seen/experienced as "in seeing
always just the seen, no seer". Then everything is naturally direct,
immediate and gapless, and it is a very liberating view, everything is
very vivid and lucid display of pure clarity but without any trace of a
self or a Self. It is important to note that there are varying degrees
of seeing through the self, for example seeing through the sense of self
but not the Self is what I call an experience of "impersonality" but
not the "realization of anatta" (which I described in more details in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2011/12/experience-realization-view-practice.html)
Then
further insights into emptiness, particularly the emptiness of
phenomena reveal that seeing/hearing/etc are empty, unlocatable,
ungraspable, and being empty has all the attributes that you once
relegated to some Absolute - i.e. all phenomena are non-arising,
unconditioned, non-ceasing, without coming and going, etc. But this is
not due to the inherent changeless existence of some 'Absolute' but
rather due to the empty nature of all those appearance/manifestation of
direct experience. But after seeing emptiness of everything it
absolutely makes no sense to speak of an 'ultimate' or 'absolute' apart
from the phenomenal world. There is no trace of any kind of
Absolute/ultimate existence whatsoever.
As Malcolm quoted on Nagarjuna's refutation of gzhan stong [extrinsic emptiness]:
"Since arising, abiding and perishing are not established,
the conditioned is not established;
since the conditioned is never established,
how can the unconditioned be established?"
And
on this topic the Vidhyadhara Mahayogi Sridhar Rana Rinpoche (who used
to be into Vedanta/Hindu Tantras and was recognized as self-realized by
his masters before going into Buddhism) talked about the difference
between the Buddhist and Hindu paradigm: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2009/02/madhyamika-buddhism-vis-vis-hindu.html
"as
one of its connotations is “existing”, it is hazardous to use the word
“ultimate reality” in any Buddhist context and it is always safer to use
the word “ultimate truth” instead."
"To
sum it up, the Vedantic ultimate truth is the existence of an ultimate
existence or ultimate reality called Atman-Brahman. Reality here is used
as something which exists (satta/sat). Sri Sankaracharya defines Sat or
real existence in his Tatva Bodha as that which remains the same and
unchanged in all the three times (kala trya api tishtatiti). The three
times means the past, present and the future. Thus the ultimate reality
has to remain unchanged and that reality is the ultimate truth.
However,
the Buddhist ultimate truth is the absence of any such satta, i.e., and
ultimately existing thing or ultimate reality. The significance of
Shunyata is the absence of any real, independent, unchanging existence
(svabhava) and that fact is the ultimate truth of Buddhism, which is
diametrically opposite of the ultimate truth of the Hindu Atman-Brahman.
So Shunyata or emptiness can never be via negativa, a negative way of
describing the Atman-Brahman of Hinduism as Vinoba Bhave and such
scholars would have us believe. The meaning of Shunyata found in Sutra,
Tantra, Dzogchen and Mahamudra is the same and officially accepted by
all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism (except those who adhere to the
Shentong view) and that is the Prasangic emptiness of Chandrakirti,
i.e., the unfindability of any true existence or simply unfindability
(unupalabdhi)."
"Another
word that has confounded many Hindu swamis, is the “unborn” (ajat or
anutpada) or “unproduced”. In the context of the Hindu Vedanta, it means
that there is this ultimate reality called the Brahman, which is
unborn, that was never produced by anything or at any time and which
means it always was and will always be the same unchanging substance. A
thing, or super-thing, even a non- thing, that always existed and was
never ever produced at any period in time, which is separate from this
born, illusory Samsara. Whereas, in the Buddhist context, it is the true
nature of Samsara itself which although relatively appears to be “born”
ultimately is never born. Advayavajra in his Tatvaratnavali states ‘the
Samsara is unborn says the Buddha.’ The Buddha Ekaputra Tantra (Tib.:
Sangye Tse tsig tantra) mentions that the base of Dzogchen is the
Samsara itself stirred from its depth. Since the Samsara stirred from
its depth is interdependently originated, i.e., not really originated or
unborn, and since the Samsara is only relatively an interdependently
originated thing, but ultimately neither a thing, nor a non-thing (bhava
or abhava) that truly exists. The term “unborn” for Brahman (which is
definitely not Samsara) and for Samsara in Buddhism are diametrically
opposed. The true meaning of unborn (anutpada) is dependently originated
( pratityasamutpanna), which as mentioned before is the meaning of
nisvabhava (non real existence) or Shunyata. None of these terms are a
synonym for Brahman or anything that has this kind of ultimate real
existence, even if it were to be called Tathagatagarbha. There is no
acceptance of an ultimate existence in any Buddhist Sutra."
i am actually almost intellectually convinced that there is no self. yet, i feel very strongly identified to my body and mind... why is that (besides it being habitual)? how do i cross this hurdle?
You need to have an experiential realization of no self to feel the effects...
I have my own path of practice but if you're interested you can check out my ejournal http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html
Thank you Eternal!
It is great that you have the words to express not only the view but the experience too :)
Lisa: "yet the question remains... once everything is known to be empty zilch, and the knowing of that is set aside as also being empty zilch, where to look? And for what? I'd thought it was to look for Ultimate... and am open to other suggestions."
The point is to stop anymore looking since all things are empty. To continue searching is to create something again.
"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?"
"You've gone too far, friend Visakha. You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end.