Nice post by Kyle in Emptiness group.
Kyle Dixon Nenad, If you insist that your point of view is somehow the correct treatment of these issues, then yes it may certainly appear as if "this group seems to be too much focused on that type of confusion". However, this group also does not insist that the so-called individual is merely a thought, but rather explores the fact that the illusion of an individual reference point depends on multiple factors.
So while HoM is very happy with simply denying thought, and then identifying with 'this that is', touting that there cannot be multiple factors because "there is only one"... emptiness traditions do not do this. For traditions associated with emptiness inquiry, the illusion of an individual is also created by imputation, but other factors such as habitual patterns of grasping which create the appearance of identification go into the illusion as well.
HoM may state that a belief cannot be held, nor let go of, on the grounds that the individual who would perform such actions is an abstraction which is suggested by thought. However, in the opinion of emptiness traditions; while the alleged identity may be partly a byproduct of imputation, that imputation also becomes interwoven into the fabric of behavior that the illusory entity appears to involve itself with. So in addition to that imputation, there is other conditioning. And the actions predicated upon that conditioning occur habitually.
I bring this up because the very act of 'holding' or grasping is another factor which reifies a subject relating to objects. For the very act of 'holding' presupposes something to be held and a subject to hold it, and that activity in and of itself implies these two. The action or activity literally creates the illusion of a subject-object dichotomy, and if that illusion is not seen for what it is, then the entire process runs away with itself, becoming an intricate and delusional structure of habitual tendencies which are conventionally referred to as a 'self'. Again, there is no self contained therein, within, or apart from that activity, but the delusion surrounding that activity cannot see that in the absence of insight which reveals it to be so.
For example, if we were to say there is only unpleasant emotions and no entity which is feeling those emotions; emptiness would argue that those emotions are still arising due to either accepting or rejecting. The very act of accepting and/or rejecting presupposes something to be accepted or rejected, and the very act itself (along with the presupposition the action is based upon) is precisely what the entity is. The entity cannot be found apart from that action, and ultimately the so-called entity cannot be found within that action either, but under the sway of delusion this is not apparent. That is what the notion of karma truly is: 'action', but it is delusional action which is predicated upon the misunderstanding that the apparent dependencies and relationships between subjects and objects, or objects and objects etc., is valid. So emptiness seeks to penetrate these subtle assumptions, presuppositions, conditioning behaviors and so on by revealing the unreality of the factors they are based upon. It is a very thorough and comprehensive process, which is also very liberating. If done skillfully it utterly exhausts these subtle tendencies and neuroses, and with the pacification of those tendencies, the illusion of the entity which can exist or not exist is also pacified.
HoM of course scoffs at this because in your view you merely negate the thought of an 'I', or the thought of a 'me', thoughts of 'they', 'he', 'she', etc., on the presupposition that what you really are is the faculty of knowing which is inseparable from what is known. So your 'ultimate' (knowing-known) is readily available and quite easy to intuit by dispensing with what you refer to as 'thought-stories' and simply recognizing the inseparability of the knower and known. And that is all well and good, but a completely different view.
So when you make a statement such as 'this group is focused too much on that type of confusion', it is because in your opinion, and in the opinion of HoM, who carry a certain view, such things are not required. And this is due to the nature of the view you seek to engender, which is utterly different from the view of emptiness.
Now, does emptiness
ultimately contend that all of the aforementioned delusional actions,
dependencies, illusory entities and so on are valid and true? Not at
all. But they appear to be for those who are caught up in the throes of
that ignorance. In response to that HoM would merely say, "well there is
no one to be caught up in anything!" And that is partly true, but not
in the sense that HoM means, where thought is merely being objectified
by thought. That type of view does not cut through the illusion of
entityhood. That is why you see people in HoM who merely state that
negative emotions and expressions of that nature simply appear 'to no
one', which honestly is just a subtle form of depersonalization it is
little more than a form of suppression and repression, where you
identify with the knowing and attempt to intuit that "everything is me",
"I'm all of this, even the so-called negative stuff which really isn't
negative because it's all me and I am it, yet at the same time there is
no me".... that type of view is all well and good but it is not an
acceptable resolution to the deeply engrained habitual patterns which
give rise to the illusion of an individual. The individual still
persists in that type of view, it is only transferred onto a new form of
itself, in most cases far more fortified than the previous individual.
6 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 7
Kyle Dixon In addition to 'action' which is predicated upon the
misunderstanding that the apparent dependencies and relationships
between subjects and objects, or objects and objects etc., are valid;
another aspect of the issue is that those dependencies and relationships
themselves, directly arise from that action. Though only apparently.
The grasping [action predicated upon delusion] presupposes the grasped
[object], however the very act of grasping directly manifests the
grasped through implication, the very arising of the grasped [object]
implies, and therefore appears to give rise to the grasper [subject] and
so on. Each implied factor becomes the cause for (and effect of) each
corresponding factor, and the illusory web of factors build
exponentially as a result.
At no time within this apparent process do any of these attributes (subjects, objects and so on) actually inherently arise, but they appear to. And becoming taken in by that process, conditioned by it and investing in it, is precisely the occurrences which solidify our experiences as independent and autonomous beings which exist in an environment separate from us, living lives extended in time which will eventually end, and so on.
As
familiarization with these afflictive processes build up and solidify,
they become more deeply engrained and at a certain point, the myriad
pieces of our experiences (which are implied by these processes) are
then mistaken to be inherent aspects of an inherent experience. We
become conditioned, and we only ever know and relate to the imaginary
figments of these processes, so attachment to them arises, aversion to
other aspects arise, and as a result of that, the implied aspects of
experience are solidified even further. Eventually we are here, as we
are, fully entrenched in this intricate and deceitful web.
6 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 7
This is similar to what I wrote in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/.../early... :
...Lastly it is the fetter of ignorance (avijj�) that the arahant overcomes -- the Buddha defines ignorance as ignorance of the four noble truths, but the four noble truths is linked all the
truths that we discover - impermanence, unsatisfactoriness/suffering,
not-self, dependent origination, etc. So if you truly, fully, comprehend
the four noble truths, you also overcome the perception of permanence,
satisfactoriness, self, independence, inherency, and so forth.
If
you see the four noble truths, you clearly see dependent origination in
action. You clearly perceive that suffering - the eight kinds of
suffering - is rooted in craving, in grasping, in delusion, and you
clearly perceive that there is path which leads to the end of that
craving, that grasping, that delusion.
So
you see dependent origination Directly, not just as an inference, but
you see ignorance in action - what does ignorance means? What does
karmic propensities mean? Many of us think of karmic propensities and
ignorance as being some kind of ghostly, hidden, almost mystical force
hiding somewhere and affecting our lives from a hidden 'subconscious'
component of consciousness stored away from sight. That is having an
inherent view, a self-view of ignorance and karmic propensities. We need
to directly See that cause of suffering and that suffering as the total
exertion of our experience in seamless dependencies.
As
Thusness say, having the view of afflicted dependent origination is
having the enlightened view. The enlightened view does not conceive of a
sufferer, suffering does not come from a self. How does it arise? Based
on conditions - delusion, grasping, craving.
The
totality of our experience is being shaped moment by moment by our
delusions (either that, or by wisdom), by our sense of self, and with it
all kinds of grasping and craving and afflictions. Taste it, see it for
yourself, what is it like? See that grasping in action, see that
becoming in action, see the birth of suffering. Only when you see
suffering and the cause of suffering, only then can you realize the path
and the end of that suffering. (Otherwise you become some neo-advaitins
that say the path is not necessary)
And
the moment you perceive the nature of that - that every phenomena is
dependently arising, is empty of a self, is empty of inherent existence,
at that moment, by realizing the four noble truths you realize
dependent origination and you realize emptiness. And with that, you
attain liberation. That is how overcoming the ignorance of the four
noble truths is so crucial. From a view that a Subject interacts with an
Object, to a view of seamless process of dependencies without
self/Self, and furthermore clarity into the workings of delusion,
grasping, craving I-making and suffering.
�悔业障 - that is not a sense of self behind it correct....?
some people believe the past negative karma obstruct their life and path to enlightenment
Karma does play a role. For example, your ability to gain human body, meet the dharma, and the very fact that you are on this forum discussing dharma, are the evidence that you have good karma to attain liberation.
Anything else is an excuse. If one is already replete with these conditions and still think that one has karmic obstructions preventing dharma practice, one is really just finding excuses not to practice. If one thinks that life has to be in a perfect situation before one can practice, one is wallowing in self-delusion, daydreaming about a day that will never come, because life is suffering and can never be perfect. One can only seize the opportunity every single day and every moment to practice the dharma like our heads are on fire.
Not sure what you mean by "�悔业障 - that is not a sense of self behind it correct...."?
Many of us think of karmic propensities and ignorance as being some kind of ghostly, hidden, almost mystical force hiding somewhere and affecting our lives from a hidden 'subconscious' component of consciousness stored away from sight. That is having an inherent view, a self-view of ignorance and karmic propensities. We need to directly See that cause of suffering and that suffering as the total exertion of our experience in seamless dependencies.
this paragraph does not refer to �悔业障..? In mahayana, it was advisable to repent the negative past karma (or many lives back) to have a smoother, fulfilling spirtual path... or no?
Well yes. But karmic tendencies is not a mystical hidden thing stored somewhere inherently, it is in total exertion. Not understanding this we fall into a self-view about karma.
I understand only part of what's written here.
In any case it's bewildering to think that ignorance led to creation of mind stream and what we are today.Now that it has to be undone to be free of it.
thanks AEN