Shurangama Sutra (The most important sutra in Buddhism)

• Weychin

  14 Oct 16, 14:47

  It is a very normal for Chinese authors to credit important personages to lend credibility to the any particular treatise.

  This is no way dimishes the informative and helpful nature of that particular Sutra.

  If we can accept the author have attain enlightenment whose lineage directly from tne historical Buddha, the we can see it as a rendition of skilful means, a manifestation of compassion.

  Skilful means also means the possibility of 84000 dharma doors, the basis of the existence of Bodhisattva's path, not just one singular path.

   

• Weychin

  14 Oct 16, 14:50

  There are certain Buddhist sects that hold a particular Sutra in high esteem. One such Sutra is the Lotus Sutra.

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Sutra

• libido

  14 Oct 16, 15:07

  How do u explain when they include words like "thus as I heard" or even a whole "play" when what was written is probably an analysis of their own which can often be traced to materials in the nikaya? Some even said stuff were taught by the nagas. 

• Weychin

  14 Oct 16, 15:28

  Lending authenticity as a Sutra dispensed by historical Buddha,  timeline when the Sutra first appeared is not right nor universally accepted. 

  Also,I remember someone previously posted an article where the assemblage was held in Vulture Peak. There was no way those assemblage could fill in such a venue.

  Perhaps someone with better memory dig that post.

  A Buddhist teaching must incorporate  Buddhist ideas contained within the past teachings.

  With a newer set of audience begins a next phrasing that they can grasp. The world view when Shakyamuni Buddha is different when different sutras first appeared.  Even the terminology is different owing to prevailing worldview.

  One is the Indian subcontinent, the other is China, where previous worldviews already existed.

   

   

   

• Weychin

  14 Oct 16, 15:38

  My reasoning is very simple, enlightenment by Buddhist after Nirvana of Lord Buddha.

  If Buddhist teachings that doesn't enlighten which when Buddha is not around do not deserve esteem. Difficult, yes, not unattainable.

  Dispensation of the Dharma by Buddha is the path of Bodhisattva's.

  An enlightened mind is and should be capable disseminating enlightened teachings and therefore bear deeper scrutiny and deserve great respect.

• Weychin

  14 Oct 16, 15:55

  Nagas, dragons are powerful mythical beings both venerated and feared in both East and West. They are believed to be guardians of great treasures.

  In Tibetan beliefs where tertons discovers termas when time is ripe, eg. people are ready to accept. Termas are teachings for the mind yet, they are believed to have being store in physical places. What does that tells us?

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terma_(religion)

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  Terma (religion)

  Terma (Tibetan: à½‚à½�ེར་མ་, Wylie: gter ma; "hidden treasure")^[1] are various forms of hidden teachings that are key toVajrayana or Tibetan Buddhist and Bon religious traditions. The belief is that these teachings were originallyesoterically hidden by various adepts such as Padmasambhava and dakini such as Yeshe Tsogyal (consorts) during the 8th century, for future discovery at auspicious times by other adepts, who are known as tertöns. As such, terma represent a tradition of continuous revelation in Vajrayana or Tibetan Buddhism.^[1] Termas are a part of tantricliterature.

   

  Contents

  Terma traditionEdit

  Tradition holds that terma may be a physical object such as a text or ritual implement that is buried in the ground (orearth), hidden in a rock or crystal, secreted in a herb, or a tree, hidden in a lake (or water), or hidden in the sky (space). Though a literal understanding of terma is "hidden treasure", and sometimes refers to objects that are hidden away, the teachings associated should be understood as being 'concealed within the mind of the guru', that is, the true place of concealment is in the tertön's nature or essence of mind. If the concealed or encoded teaching or object is a text, it is often written in dakini script, a non-human type of code or writing that only a tertön can decipher.

  Fremantle (2001: p. 19) states:

  ...termas are not always made public right away. The conditions may not be right; people may not yet be ready for them; and further instructions may need to be revealed to clarify their meaning. Often, the tertön himself has to practice them for many years.^[2]

  In this way, one may see the tradition of terma and terton as analogous to that of inspiration and providing a legitimate cultural forum to ensure continuation of tantric tradition, and ensuring Tibetan Buddhism's and Bön's continued relevancy in an evolving world.

  The terma tradition is particularly prevalent in, and significant to, the Nyingma lineage. Two of the most famous tertönin the 20th century, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje (2nd Dudjom Rinpoche) and Dilgo Khyentse, were Nyingmapa. Tertön are also prevalent in Bön traditions and a few tertön have been Kagyupa.

  Padmasambhava and his principal consorts and disciples secreted away and hid religious texts, ritual objects andrelics etc., to secure and protect Buddhism during the time of decline under Langdarma. Some of these terma have been rediscovered and special terma lineages established throughout Tibet as a result. Out of this activity developed, especially within the Nyingma tradition, two ways of dharma transmission: the so-called "long oral transmission" from teacher to student in unbroken disciplic lineages, and the "short transmission" of terma. The foremost revealers of these terma were the Five Terton Kings and the Eight Lingpas. In the 19th century, some of the most famous were theKhenkong Choksum referring to Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, Jamgon Kongtrul and Orgyen Chokgyur Lingpa.

  Terma have been relayed by nÄ�ga and the dakini - of the underworld and the heavens, respectively - and have also been hidden by teachers such as the great translator Longchenpa.

  Antecedents and Analogies in Other TraditionsEdit

  The central Mahayana figure Nagarjuna rediscovered the last part of the "Prajnaparamita Sutra in one hundred thousand verses" in the realm of nÄ�ga, where it had been kept since the time of Gautama Buddha.

  The terma tradition of rediscovering hidden teaching is not unique to Tibet. It has antecedents in India and cultural resonances in Hindu Vaishnavism as well. The Vaishnava saint Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is said to have rediscovered a fragment of the Brahma Samhita in a trance state of devotional ecstasy.

  There is another occasion involving Chaitanya, who deposited his divine love (prema) for great saint Narottama Dasa in the Padma River in Bangladesh. When Narottama Dasa turned twelve years of age, he collected this treasure after a revelation in a dream.^[3]

  Types of TermaEdit

  Fremantle (2001: p. 17) affirms that according to tradition:

  Termas are of two main kinds: earth treasures and intention, or mind, treasures. A teaching concealed as an intention treasure appears directly within the mind of the tertön in the form of sounds or letters to fulfill the enlightened intention of Padmakara. Earth treasures include not only texts, but also sacred images, ritual instruments, and medicinal substances, and are found in many places: temples, monuments, statues, mountains, rocks, trees, lakes, and even the sky. In the case of texts, they are not, as one might imagine, ordinary books that can be read straightaway. Occasionally, full-length texts are found, but they are usually fragmentary, sometimes consisting of only a word or two, and they are encoded in symbolic script, which may change mysteriously and often disappears completely once it has been transcribed. They are simply the material supports that act as a trigger to help the tertön reach the subtle level of mind where the teaching has really been concealed. It is the tertön who actually composes and writes down the resulting text, and so may be considered its author.^[4]

  The earth-terma are physical objects — which may be either an actual text, or physical objects that trigger a recollection of the teaching. The mind-terma are constituted by space and are placed via guru-transmission, or realizations achieved in meditation which connect the practitioner directly with the essential content of the teaching in one simultaneous experience. Once this has occurred, the tertön holds the complete teaching in mind and is required byconvention to transcribe the terma twice from memory (if of textual nature) in one uninterrupted session. The transcriptions are then compared, and if no discrepancy or inconsistency is evident the terma is sealed as authentic. The tertön is required to realise the essence of the terma prior to formal transmission.

  In one sense, all terma may be considered mind-termas,^{[citation needed]} since the teaching associated is always inserted in the essence of the mind of the practitioner;^{[original research?]} in other words the terma is always a direct transmission from the essence of the mind of the vidyadhara towards the essence of the mind of the tertön. The terma may also be held in the mind of the tertön and realised in a future incarnation at a beneficent time. A vision of a syllable or symbol may leaven the realisation of the latent terma in the mind of the tertön. The process of hiding in the mind implies that the practitioner is to gain realisation in that life. At the time of terma concealment, a prophecy is generally made concerning the circumstances in which the teaching will be re-accessed. Especially in the case of an earth-terma, this usually includes a description of locality, and may specify certain ritual tools or objects which are required to be present, and the identities of any assistants and consorts who are required to accompany or assist the tertön.

  Though somewhat contentious, the kind of revealed teaching embodied in the terma system is based in solidMahayana Buddhist traditions. The example of 

• libido

  14 Oct 16, 23:38

  Well, it depends on the approach one feel is correct. Some will prefer to stick to concepts closer to early Buddhism which is more likely the words spoken by the Buddha. Something that has evidence to support for example, many suttas in the nikayas has equivalent in the agamas (belongs to another early school, preserved in Chinese translations). Although we still need to carefully considered the information inside to believe or not. In the nikayas there is info like the Buddha has cotton wool like white hair between his brows, his genital is encased in the body, his tongue can touch the top end of his face. The point is there is info added by the editors perhaps to make it more impressive in order to compete with other sects. If you compare with very early suttas like rhinoceros sutta which contain desriptions that is devoid of exaggerations and mystical stuff, just the way to practice renuciation and the joy of it. There are areas on early Buddhism from a psychological angle that get support from the modern psychology. Meaning it is something we can observe in our daily experience.

  If a new concept that appears that do not has any support from the nikayas it doesn't mean it is definitely wrong. But in my opinion, it will be something different from the original.

• Jayden99

  15 Oct 16, 09:53

   

  Ananda said to the Buddha: World Honoured One, although the Buddha has taught us about cause and condition, the state of the self as such, of mingling and union and of non-mingling and non-union, our minds are still not open to the teaching. As we listened to His further instruction on seeing that is not seeing, we became more deluded and perplexed. Please be compassionate enough to open our wisdom-eye to enlighten us.í After saying this, he shed bitter tears, prostrated himself at the Buddhaís feet and waited for the holy teaching.56

  (Thus I Have Heard)

  The Buddha took pity on Ananda and the assembly and was about to teach the profound practice of the samadhi of the great Dharani, when he said to Ananda:  Though you have tried to memorize (my Dharma), you have only broadened your hearing (or knowledge) and are still not very clear about deep insight into ̃amatha. Now listen with attention to what I now tell you fully (for the benefit of you) and those who are still in the stream of transmigration so that you can all win the bodhi fruit. 

• libido

  15 Oct 16, 12:33

  Who is the one that heard this and recorded it?

• Jayden99

  15 Oct 16, 13:38

  Originally posted by libido:

  首楞嚴三昧經. Surangama Samathi Sutra. This sutra got Indian equivalent. Translated in about 400ce.

  This sutra is ultimate self of all. It does not elaborate details but right on the supreme non dualistic self of all same as Buddha Shakyamuni and all Buddhas. Indeed wonderful. If there is an Indian equivalent, it has to be widely circulated in hard copy especially in India. 

• Jayden99

  15 Oct 16, 13:50

  Originally posted by libido:

  Who is the one that heard this and recorded it?

  The 1255 disciples following Buddha then heard this. Recorded by Ananda attributed to his great memory and authenticated by at least 500 disciples in an assembly (recording sutra) before this sutra could be accepted to benefit all beings.  Thus I have heard was asked by Buddha to put it in the first sentence. It can avoid misderstanding and conflict that sutra is Ananda version or Ananda has attained Buddha. Thus I have heard can also be referred to supreme essence that the sutra is revealing. Thus i have heard can also be understood as using one's buddha nature to understand it. As a matter of fact, those disciples were present to do a show together with Buddha Shakyamuni, they were not ordinary beings and many had already attained buddha as mentioned in 首楞严三昧ç»�

• Weychin

  15 Oct 16, 14:23

  Originally posted by Yixian662:

  Hi Dharma bro / Sis, Lord Buddha has warned us since 2500yrs ago, during our present period (dharma ending period), it is common to see fake teaching / demonic teaching. He further emphasized that it is important to follow the teaching of Sutra. Any dharma teacher who teach outside of Sutra will likely spreading demonic or trying to destroy the true teaching of Buddhism. The Shurangama Sutra and Mantra will be the first to disappear during current dharma ending period. Any good person who wish to cultivate the true teaching should constantly refer to Sutra especially Shurangama Sutra and recite the Shurangama Mantra in heart. The heart mantra as follow : “She Tan Toh, Poh Dah lar” Any person who constantly recite this short mantra will not easily confuse by demonic teaching and will be able to hear / see / practice true dharma peacefully.

  Any good person who spread, read or chant Shurangama Sutra and Mantra will have unlimited merits. 
                     - The merits of Shurangama Sutra / Mantra:  
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhYpoUlyRVw
                     - Full Mantra: 
                         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBi7m3jFxbY
                     - Short Mantra: 
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2PeFyt6gGk
                

  End---
                

  I take issue with this :-

  "Any dharma teacher who teach outside of Sutra will likely spreading demonic or trying to destroy the true teaching of Buddhism"

  the way it is worded.

• Weychin

  15 Oct 16, 14:27

  Incidentally, could you tell me where is the Summit/ Crown of great Buddha's head?

• Weychin

  15 Oct 16, 14:31

  Interesting article:-

  https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com/2014/11/29/ajahn-chah-explain-a-principle-from-the-shurangama-sutra/

  When a Theravadan Buddhist teacher can explain a principle from a Mahayana Sutra just from his own wisdom without ever having read the Sutra – then this means that the teaching is correct – Theravada and Mahayana are in harmony and are mututally supporting and strengthening each other.

  The Shurangama Sutra reveals the crucial difference between the mind and the thoughts/sense impressions that come and go WITHIN the mind – they are 2 separate things.

  “World-Honored One, suppose:

  • A visitor stops at an inn for a night or for a meal. Once his stay is ended or the meal is finished, he packs his bags and goes on his way. He’s not at leisure to remain.
  • But if he were the innkeeper, he would not leave.

  By considering this example of:

  • The visitor, the one who comes and goes, and
  • The innkeeper, the one who remains,

  I understood what the visitor signifies. He represents transience.

  – A New Translation Buddhist Text Translation Society. The Śūraá¹…gama SÅ«tra With Excerpts from the Commentary by the Venerable Master Hsüan Hua (Kindle Locations 1388-1393).

  In our own mind – all these things come and go – images, feelings, perceptions, processes and thoughts (i.e., the 5 skandhas) – they all come and go – they are transient, impermanent.

  BUT

  “That which is aware” of these transient processes remains.

  The transient processes in a bit more detail are things like:

  • Images changing in front of us
  • Sensations that we feel through our body arising and ceasing
  • Perceptions forming and disappearing and
  • Thoughts flowing in and flowing out

  These things come and go.  It is the mind that stays and is aware of it all.

  “That which is aware” of these comings and goings does not come nor go with them.  “That which is aware” of these transient processes is not these transient processes:

  • That which is aware of mental images is not the mental images.  Mental images are visual “objects” that the mind observes but these images themselves can not do the observing.  It is the mind that sees, not the objects of vision that sees.
  • That which is aware of sensations is not the sensations.  It is the mind that feels the sensations but the sensations themselves can not do the feeling.
  • That which is aware of thoughts is not the thoughts.  It is the mind that is aware of the thoughts but the thoughts themselves can not do the thinking because thoughts are just mental objects of perception.

  In your own meditation, it is crucial to understand this difference.  Otherwise, you make the mistake of thinking that you are your thoughts and feelings, when these things are really just perceptions that arise and cease – within the mind.

  Anything that arises and ceases with the mind is transient and impermanent – you allow it to arise and you allow it to cease of themselves – watching them, allowing them to be, letting go of them.  You are not those transient perceptions.

  That which is aware of the transient phenomena – is not transient, is it?  Because the awareness does not die out when those transient things die out.  If the awareness were no different from the thoughts, then when the thoughts die out, then the awareness too would die out with them – but this does not happen.

  The awareness is the mind – that is the host, that is the innkeeper – who stays.  It is the guests/visitors that come and go (impermanent).

  Ajahn Chah gets it – and I doubt that he had even read the Shurangama Sutra:

  In any case, in our practice, no matter what aspect you refer to, you must always begin from the mind.

  That which receives impressions, both good and bad, we call ”mind.” It’s like the owner of a house:

  • The owner stays put at home
  • While visitors come to see him.

  He is the one who receives the visitors.

  Who receives sense impressions? What is it that perceives? Who lets go of sense impressions? That is what we call ”mind.”

  – Ajahn Chah – A Dhamma Talk “Still, Flowing Water”

  So try that next time in your meditation or even with simple reflection – that which is aware of the thoughts is not the thoughts.  That which is aware of the feelings is not the feelings.  That which is aware of the movements within the minds is not those movements – the awareness itself is unmoving, yet it can observe the movements.

• Weychin

  15 Oct 16, 14:56

  Originally posted by libido:

  Well, it depends on the approach one feel is correct. Some will prefer to stick to concepts closer to early Buddhism which is more likely the words spoken by the Buddha. Something that has evidence to support for example, many suttas in the nikayas has equivalent in the agamas (belongs to another early school, preserved in Chinese translations). Although we still need to carefully considered the information inside to believe or not. In the nikayas there is info like the Buddha has cotton wool like white hair between his brows, his genital is encased in the body, his tongue can touch the top end of his face. The point is there is info added by the editors perhaps to make it more impressive in order to compete with other sects. If you compare with very early suttas like rhinoceros sutta which contain desriptions that is devoid of exaggerations and mystical stuff, just the way to practice renuciation and the joy of it. There are areas on early Buddhism from a psychological angle that get support from the modern psychology. Meaning it is something we can observe in our daily experience.

  If a new concept that appears that do not has any support from the nikayas it doesn't mean it is definitely wrong. But in my opinion, it will be something different from the original.

  I agree with you. Unfortunately, I am not academically acquainted to comment on historical authenticity, not even close. Let those with more authority comment.

  Seeking the truth to me is much like discovering a pain or discomfort. Whichever offers relief is a good doctor.

  Just going to a doctor, if seeing a GP would suffice, then end of issue. Skilful means in this instance simply means seeing a specialist. 

   

• Jayden99

  15 Oct 16, 18:03

  
  

  • The visitor, the one who comes and goes, and
  • The innkeeper, the one who remains,
  • I understood what the visitor signifies. He represents transience

  Exactly! Well mentioned.

  The innkeeper is the Thusness or Buddha or bodhicitta or world honour one of us all. Isn't it amazing and awesome, but it is also empathetically disheartening as beings who was buddha themselves lost it temporarily and feel suffering in the dream. Whilst the visitor that comes and goes is as when time without beginning nor ending, bodhicitta was simply covered by dust on it.

  The more we applied academic studying on this, it is liken to a soldier shot by a poisonous arrow and instead of taking the medicine given, he has a lot of academic enquiries, and eventually, poison got into his heart, collapsed and died

• libido

  15 Oct 16, 22:02

  What Ajahn chah said about the mind and the aggregates are within basics of early Buddhism taught in the nikayas. The way to release aggregates as taught in the nikayas, those techniques and symptoms found in the last chapter of Shurangama Sutra (not the same as Surama Samathi Sutra) are totally different. Especially releasing one by one. I wish someone can shed some lights on that if they have good understanding of that.

  If you look at the way the Buddha explained his theories in the nikayas, you will see how he applied logical reasoning, deduction and considering every possibilities of a scenario, knowledge of the human biological system of his era, philosophies and religious belief of his time etc. He taught a way that 1) listen to dharma 2) examine the carefully the meaning 3) meditate 4) receiving insights. Basically, questioning especially with common sense is encouraged and not discouraged.

• Jayden99

  16 Oct 16, 09:28

  Surama Samathi Sutra 首楞严三昧ç»� is relating the 25 enlightenment methods mentioned in the shurangama sutra. The questioning and non specific answers provided on behalf of beings for  the developmental phases of Visitors are not outside of the common sense. When one understand it not from intellectual perception , the perceptions are non dualism, when this non dualistic thusness is intellectually engaged or academically encouraged, your supreme self transformed into common sense. This Shurangama sutra is actually revealing the fact that your knowledge gained since time without beginning nor ending, knowingly and unknowingly source information incessantly  in your common sense, attached and discriminated it

• Jayden99

  16 Oct 16, 09:44

  Shurangama Sutra is stating the fact that all beings and non beings are sharing one common sense and they are also sharing or having one Supreme enlightenment or bodhicitta, thus do you not lol 

   

• Weychin

  16 Oct 16, 23:32

  Originally posted by libido:

  What Ajahn chah said about the mind and the aggregates are within basics of early Buddhism taught in the nikayas. The way to release aggregates as taught in the nikayas, those techniques and symptoms found in the last chapter of Shurangama Sutra (not the same as Surama Samathi Sutra) are totally different. Especially releasing one by one. I wish someone can shed some lights on that if they have good understanding of that.

  If you look at the way the Buddha explained his theories in the nikayas, you will see how he applied logical reasoning, deduction and considering every possibilities of a scenario, knowledge of the human biological system of his era, philosophies and religious belief of his time etc. He taught a way that 1) listen to dharma 2) examine the carefully the meaning 3) meditate 4) receiving insights. Basically, questioning especially with common sense is encouraged and not discouraged.

  Maybe you are referring to these:-

  http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama8/shurangama8_4.asp