Are we the freaks?
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K this is controversial but i would like everyone to keep an open mind about this. A million gazillion years ago, people in the western countries ostracised the black men, they were called freaks but today, they've become part of society and have somewhat gained a better standing in society.
Same thing happened to Gays and Lesbians...they were freaks for pretty long but they've fought that battle long and hard to gain some form of understanding from their hetrosexual counterparts.
Just the other day, I was watching Law and Order, the episode was about paedophilia and this line a criminal (murderer and paedophile) said to the detective struck a chord within me.
"you can put me away. but there will be hundreds of thousands more of my type roaming the streets, maybe millions. You call us freaks, have is it ever occured to you that YOU might be the freak?"
now let me make my stand here. I am totally against child pornography and child sexual abuse. But would we ever see the day when a consenting adult and a consenting child engage in a romantic relationship without society having to condemn them? yes condemn those that mislead children with the use of drugs, candy and alcohol. But what about those that have genuine feelings of romance for each other? Lets say its a possibility that an 8 year old can fall in love with a 25 year old. (and dun say that love can only be felt and comprehended by mature adults cause no one really can ever comprehend love no matter how mature u are), should society condemn them?
same goes for incestous relationships. Some of you might rem a few forumites falling for their cousins. But if its out of love, should they be accepted for who they are?? -
there is an age old taboo against incest.. simply because of inbreeding.. maybe it's genetic programming that made us like that...
but inbreeding tends to reinforce the flawed genetics of the family, so much so that there is this running gag that the rednecks in the US deep south are retards for that same reason...
as for the paedophiles, it is a simple reason... children may not be able to say "no"...
and therefore, there is the age of consent in order to protect them... if a forceful adult tells and commands them, chances are, the child will not be in any state of mind or ability to protect themselves... it would constitute abuse whether the child gave consent or not.. simply because the child may be coerced or forced into something which the child is not able to make a proper decision to do or not to do...
which is why there are taboos and laws against incest and paedophilia... if it is real love, could they not wait? -
the sole function for marriage is to create and nurture a new generation. sex is a procedure in marriage needed to fulfill that function. incest and paedophilic relationships perform only the procedure of sex, but are flawed in the bigger function of creating new generations. incestous couples and paedophiles will not be freaks in communities that practice such cultures. the catch is, such communities won't last very long.
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AGREEOriginally posted by the Bear:there is an age old taboo against incest.. simply because of inbreeding.. maybe it's genetic programming that made us like that...
but inbreeding tends to reinforce the flawed genetics of the family, so much so that there is this running gag that the rednecks in the US deep south are retards for that same reason...
as for the paedophiles, it is a simple reason... children may not be able to say "no"...
and therefore, there is the age of consent in order to protect them... if a forceful adult tells and commands them, chances are, the child will not be in any state of mind or ability to protect themselves... it would constitute abuse whether the child gave consent or not.. simply because the child may be coerced or forced into something which the child is not able to make a proper decision to do or not to do...
which is why there are taboos and laws against incest and paedophilia... if it is real love, could they not wait?
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oh yes.. in the episode, the cop did say something: it is the paedophile's rationalisation of his own actions and perversions...
just like the senseless violence going on in the middle east... because others do it, it does not mean that you have to do it.. "for the sins of others never can exonerate you of yours"
that was what the cop was trying to put across
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Intentions. I kill a man. You kill a man. I kill a man to defend my country. You kill a man to see him suffer.Originally posted by Farmer Brown:K this is controversial but i would like everyone to keep an open mind about this. A million gazillion years ago, people in the western countries ostracised the black men, they were called freaks but today, they've become part of society and have somewhat gained a better standing in society.
Same thing happened to Gays and Lesbians...they were freaks for pretty long but they've fought that battle long and hard to gain some form of understanding from their hetrosexual counterparts.
Just the other day, I was watching Law and Order, the episode was about paedophilia and this line a criminal (murderer and paedophile) said to the detective struck a chord within me.
"you can put me away. but there will be hundreds of thousands more of my type roaming the streets, maybe millions. You call us freaks, have is it ever occured to you that YOU might be the freak?"
now let me make my stand here. I am totally against child pornography and child sexual abuse. But would we ever see the day when a consenting adult and a consenting child engage in a romantic relationship without society having to condemn them? yes condemn those that mislead children with the use of drugs, candy and alcohol. But what about those that have genuine feelings of romance for each other? Lets say its a possibility that an 8 year old can fall in love with a 25 year old. (and dun say that love can only be felt and comprehended by mature adults cause no one really can ever comprehend love no matter how mature u are), should society condemn them?
same goes for incestous relationships. Some of you might rem a few forumites falling for their cousins. But if its out of love, should they be accepted for who they are??
Intentions. -
hmmm innnteresting. All very good points. Yes such behaviour doesn't show much hope of prolong survival.
yes its all based on intentions. and yes. we should not be blind sheeps and just follow cause everyone's following it.
lets talk about tolerance then. How many of you would tolerate it if someone close to you stepped out of the closet?
What if the child consents? Unlikely...but still we can't ignore the possibility of that happening. Yea laws are in place to protect them from sexual abuse and all, but i dun think there's a law that states that a grown up and a child are not allowed to fall in love. K sex is a component of any romantic relationship, that i don't deny. But since the child prob hasn't got his or her sexual reproductive organs developed yet, on top of that, i believe any couple REALLY in love has the self control to "tahan" till the right moment, should such relationships still be condemned?
I was thinking about this and it struck me that a relationship between a child and an adult would obviously not be the same as that between two kids or two adults. For eg, both of them might share the same admiration, respect, trust blah blah (components of love) for each other when the child is young. Therefore, love is bred at an early stage but neither of them realise it as our mind tells us that paedophilia is taboo. however as the child grows older , those feelings are realised and voila...they end up getting married despite the huge age gap. I've read that in a book...never seen it or experienced it myself hahaha (i personally dun wish to)
i'm not an advocate of such behaviour... but should they be accepted as human beings with feelings as well? Should we condemn them just because we don't understand what THEY are going through.
One last eg (which i know i'll get slammed by). King of Pop MJ! i love the dude... his music rocks but his behaviour is def not desirable... But could this adnormal behaviour stem from society condemning his "abnormal" love for kids? If society accepted MJ for his "exceptional" love for kids instead, would he even commit the alleged acts? -
if a 40 year old dude shares a bed with a 5 year old who is not his child, what do you think?
and worse, how the heck did he get away with it again after all the allegations in the past.... and all the dirty linen starting to be aired..
anyway, intentions.. intentions... what was his intentions? are they that pure that he could not stop having children in his bed? even when he knows that his reputation as a "child molester" may sully the children he claims to love?
mayhap he's just selfish? caring only for himself and not the children he says he cares for? or maybe even a darker and more sinister side (a few children whom he flew from Norway to his ranch have been reported to have disappeared)
but that aside... again, it comes down to love... true love as in partners like that, require a maturity... if a child and an adult cannot wait a few years, is it maturity? even some adults do not have this maturity.. to wait for some time for the ones they profess they love... one may ask the other for time, and the other just wanders away.. is this true love?
and with a child and an adult? is it too hard to wait? will it stand the test of the rest of their lives if it cannot stand the wait of a few years?
but that's about children who are near the age of consent...
children who are really really young? do they have the mental facilities to make such life-changing decisions? heck! as aforementioned, some adults don't, so what more the child?
i guess there would be some who will argue that some exceptional children can, but they are few and far between... it would be irresponsible to risk the overwhelming majority for that few...
there needs to be these laws...
as for coming out of the closet? a paedophile? to me, a paedophile is a predator, preying on innocents... they should know better... and if they cannot control their predatory instincts, i would not hesitate to have the law all over them.. for the simple reason.. i would have friends, relatives and other loved ones whom he/she would prey on... the well-being and safety of these many innocents outweigh the deviance of one..
for there are victims involved, one must think for the victim and not for the perpetrator...
what more when the victims are innocent children who may not be able to speak or protect themselves? -
Paedophilia has actually been very accepted throughout human history, especially in secular progressive societies. It has only been since the rise of religious societies dominated by fundamentalism that such things became taboo. To answer your question, yes, it is just a matter of whatever era we are living in.Originally posted by Farmer Brown:Just the other day, I was watching Law and Order, the episode was about paedophilia and this line a criminal (murderer and paedophile) said to the detective struck a chord within me.
"you can put me away. but there will be hundreds of thousands more of my type roaming the streets, maybe millions. You call us freaks, have is it ever occured to you that YOU might be the freak?"
now let me make my stand here. I am totally against child pornography and child sexual abuse. But would we ever see the day when a consenting adult and a consenting child engage in a romantic relationship without society having to condemn them? yes condemn those that mislead children with the use of drugs, candy and alcohol. But what about those that have genuine feelings of romance for each other? Lets say its a possibility that an 8 year old can fall in love with a 25 year old. (and dun say that love can only be felt and comprehended by mature adults cause no one really can ever comprehend love no matter how mature u are), should society condemn them? -
precisely. i meant MJ is a lil loony. I'm not here to debate whether or not such relationships can exist. I'm asking more ofOriginally posted by the Bear:if a 40 year old dude shares a bed with a 5 year old who is not his child, what do you think?
and worse, how the heck did he get away with it again after all the allegations in the past.... and all the dirty linen starting to be aired..
anyway, intentions.. intentions... what was his intentions? are they that pure that he could not stop having children in his bed? even when he knows that his reputation as a "child molester" may sully the children he claims to love?
mayhap he's just selfish? caring only for himself and not the children he says he cares for? or maybe even a darker and more sinister side (a few children whom he flew from Norway to his ranch have been reported to have disappeared)
but that aside... again, it comes down to love... true love as in partners like that, require a maturity... if a child and an adult cannot wait a few years, is it maturity? even some adults do not have this maturity.. to wait for some time for the ones they profess they love... one may ask the other for time, and the other just wanders away.. is this true love?
and with a child and an adult? is it too hard to wait? will it stand the test of the rest of their lives if it cannot stand the wait of a few years?
but that's about children who are near the age of consent...
children who are really really young? do they have the mental facilities to make such life-changing decisions? heck! as aforementioned, some adults don't, so what more the child?
i guess there would be some who will argue that some exceptional children can, but they are few and far between... it would be irresponsible to risk the overwhelming majority for that few...
there needs to be these laws...
as for coming out of the closet? a paedophile? to me, a paedophile is a predator, preying on innocents... they should know better... and if they cannot control their predatory instincts, i would not hesitate to have the law all over them.. for the simple reason.. i would have friends, relatives and other loved ones whom he/she would prey on... the well-being and safety of these many innocents outweigh the deviance of one..
for there are victims involved, one must think for the victim and not for the perpetrator...
what more when the victims are innocent children who may not be able to speak or protect themselves?
1) should we condemn them?
2) who are we to condemn them?
them refers to (decided to be more politically correct) people who engage in child-adult relationships and incestous relationships sans sex(accept when the time is appropriate)
People become to focus on the physical side of these sort of relationships. Therefore, that is prob where our disdain for such relationships come from. Take a step back and think about it. As i said before, they're humans too and THEY have feelings. (please dun give me crap about murderers or rapists or anything of that sort... they are totally irrelevant) -
incest sans sex?? uhh.. what incest then?
for the paedophile, should we condemn them, who are we to condemn them, right?
they are human too...
too true.. but with the humanity comes responsibilities... if they do not handle these responsibilities, and go be irresponsible, what about our responsibilities?
with humanity comes a personal responsibility... if they do feel so much for the child in terms of love, and are willing to wait before courting and wooing the then-child, why not?
but with paedophiles, is there such a thing? check out the definition of a paedophile
for eros-type love between siblings? i dunno if we can condemn them if they are doing so with the full knowledge and maturity... for it is their own mature choice... theirs to deal with...
as for feelings... are we to concern ourselves with feelings instead of the protection of children?
have you thought about if the "love sans sex" between a child and an adult goes sour, what happens to the child? the child is human too...
so, what is the balance to strike?
as with common sense, won't it be better to err towards the protection of the rights and feelings of the child?
maybe i'm not making much sense here to you, but i fail to understand how the irresponsibility of adults can be taken up as a banner to trod underfoot the rights to protection of children..
well, maybe in another age? who knows?
but until then, i still feel strongly and think that a child should be protected...Originally posted by Farmer Brown:precisely. i meant MJ is a lil loony. I'm not here to debate whether or not such relationships can exist. I'm asking more of
1) should we condemn them?
2) who are we to condemn them?
them refers to (decided to be more politically correct) people who engage in child-adult relationships and incestous relationships sans sex(accept when the time is appropriate)
People become to focus on the physical side of these sort of relationships. Therefore, that is prob where our disdain for such relationships come from. Take a step back and think about it. As i said before, they're humans too and THEY have feelings. (please dun give me crap about murderers or rapists or anything of that sort... they are totally irrelevant) -
Abuse of trust. Very much like what bear has said... Young children.... Are they thinking the right way? Or are they just misguided?Originally posted by Farmer Brown:hmmm innnteresting. All very good points. Yes such behaviour doesn't show much hope of prolong survival.
yes its all based on intentions. and yes. we should not be blind sheeps and just follow cause everyone's following it.
lets talk about tolerance then. How many of you would tolerate it if someone close to you stepped out of the closet?
What if the child consents? Unlikely...but still we can't ignore the possibility of that happening. Yea laws are in place to protect them from sexual abuse and all, but i dun think there's a law that states that a grown up and a child are not allowed to fall in love. K sex is a component of any romantic relationship, that i don't deny. But since the child prob hasn't got his or her sexual reproductive organs developed yet, on top of that, i believe any couple REALLY in love has the self control to "tahan" till the right moment, should such relationships still be condemned?
I was thinking about this and it struck me that a relationship between a child and an adult would obviously not be the same as that between two kids or two adults. For eg, both of them might share the same admiration, respect, trust blah blah (components of love) for each other when the child is young. Therefore, love is bred at an early stage but neither of them realise it as our mind tells us that paedophilia is taboo. however as the child grows older , those feelings are realised and voila...they end up getting married despite the huge age gap. I've read that in a book...never seen it or experienced it myself hahaha (i personally dun wish to)
i'm not an advocate of such behaviour... but should they be accepted as human beings with feelings as well? Should we condemn them just because we don't understand what THEY are going through.
One last eg (which i know i'll get slammed by). King of Pop MJ! i love the dude... his music rocks but his behaviour is def not desirable... But could this adnormal behaviour stem from society condemning his "abnormal" love for kids? If society accepted MJ for his "exceptional" love for kids instead, would he even commit the alleged acts?
My own stand. I usually won't care much. Unless... Hmm... Shall see?
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Yea bear.... i guess playing safe works. And...unless u can give me a term to replace paedophile and incest, i want to state that i use this words with their meanings sans sex and sans the obsession.
hmm...should write a tragic story about this kinda relationships
oh yea u said something about incest sans sex....yes its possible... look at AA...a couple of them (whether true or not i dunno) have come out to profess their love for their cousins.
but i'm sure you all have to agree about one thing with me... the world today is just to sex-driven. i've been going about asking my friends what they think about this, apart from suspiciously eyeing me, they all needed an explanation that i was refering to the relationships sans sex. doesn't anybody retain shards of decency around here??? haha -
they laugh at me coz im different. i laugh at them coz they're all the same.
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