UCL : Lille vs Manchester United - Feb 20th
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if u really did wake up on 3.30am to watch the match , u will realise 1st half manutd is dominating. its only after the sub by lille which i cant remember who , and sub for ronaldo totally changed the tempo of the game.Originally posted by stellazio:ok good, you're at least better off then some man utd fans that always pushes the blame to others, that just because someone else does it, he has the right to do so too even though its wrong.
This is valid, but is it ethical or professional ? and that is also probaly the reason why the lille players felt so hard done by. after working so hard for 80 odd mins, to lose to a goal like this.
Henry received quite a fair bit of stick for his quick free kicks, and now he doesn't seem to do it anymore.
if u really did watch the game u will realise both side have their fair bit of chance on GOAL.
u talking abt professional ? say that to jm. u talking abt ehtical ? say that to jm
i seriously have nothing against u , juz that i cant understand why u used the word desperate in this case. which team not desperate to win a compy that is almost the same level as the world cup itself ? -
you have nth against me, sure. but u keep using chelsea this chelsea that to make it sound like what man utd did was right. but frankly, i have yet to see chelsea score this kinda free kicks.Originally posted by givemeluck:if u really did wake up on 3.30am to watch the match , u will realise 1st half manutd is dominating. its only after the sub by lille which i cant remember who , and sub for ronaldo totally changed the tempo of the game.
if u really did watch the game u will realise both side have their fair bit of chance on GOAL.
u talking abt professional ? say that to jm. u talking abt ehtical ? say that to jm
i seriously have nothing against u , juz that i cant understand why u used the word desperate in this case. which team not desperate to win a compy that is almost the same level as the world cup itself ?
why i use the word desperate?becuz if man utd was leading 3-0, i dare to bet giggs wun take the free kick this way. heck if it was ronaldo who took the free kick i won;t say much, since he has a bad reputation anyway. -
den u shall ban all the quick throw in n short quick free kicks tat pass to team mates in gd position. Simply becoz the defendin team need time to get rdy.. next time we saw a quick throw we can label the team unprofess coz they nv let the other team gets rdy...Originally posted by stellazio:you have nth against me, sure. but u keep using chelsea this chelsea that to make it sound like what man utd did was right. but frankly, i have yet to see chelsea score this kinda free kicks.
why i use the word desperate?becuz if man utd was leading 3-0, i dare to bet giggs wun take the free kick this way. heck if it was ronaldo who took the free kick i won;t say much, since he has a bad reputation anyway. -
Wah... i just log in and see so many post on this... Actually, no need to flame anyone pls... We are all here just to discuss football. So keep the post friendly and respect others ok...
The fact of the matter is until a rule is made, taking quick free-kicks is not against Fifa rules... and it has certainly noting to do with being desperate. Its just a matter of being alert in a game. Man u themselves have been on the receiving end of such a free kick against Arsenal's Henry before too, that is why whenever there is a free kick against them, Scholes or someone will stand very near the ball until the wall is set up. You can't ask the referee to wait for the opponent if they intend to waste time...
Anyway, once the referee give the go ahead or walks away from the ball, a free kick can be taken. And off course in the event that the referee is not happy with it, he can always ask for it to be re-taken.
Yes Beckham have done it before too and others as well. And like i have said, if a team choose not to be alert during a match, then they could be punish for it. Lille was just a naive team, simple as that. -
erm since when does a throw in requires a whistle?Originally posted by tarcki:den u shall ban all the quick throw in n short quick free kicks tat pass to team mates in gd position. Simply becoz the defendin team need time to get rdy.. next time we saw a quick throw we can label the team unprofess coz they nv let the other team gets rdy...
like i said, if man utd was leading 3-0, definitely the free kick will not be taken like that. yes its legal, but its not being sporting. if man utd was on the receiving end of it, i'm sure there'll be lot of complaints too.
thats why i used the word desperate..
yes yes i know it hurts becuz all u guys are man utd fans..
but listen, i'm not aiming at man utd, i'm saying from a sporting perspective, is this right?? -
Tch.. can we have a fight pls..
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I have seen many times when a player is taking his own sweet time to take a throw in referee will blow his whistle...Originally posted by stellazio:erm since when does a throw in requires a whistle?
like i said, if man utd was leading 3-0, definitely the free kick will not be taken like that. yes its legal, but its not being sporting. if man utd was on the receiving end of it, i'm sure there'll be lot of complaints too.
thats why i used the word desperate..
yes yes i know it hurts becuz all u guys are man utd fans..
but listen, i'm not aiming at man utd, i'm saying from a sporting perspective, is this right??
So what is sporting to you? Unsporting would probably be a defender pulling down a player once he has got pass him and on his way to goal. But it still happens, most defenders are taught to bring down a player should he be thru to goal. It doesn't matter if a team is leading 3-0 or losing 1-0, most important thing is, was it legal? And the answer as you have said yourself yes it is. Cos at the end of the day, the most important decision is the referee's.
Once the referee has given the player on the ball the permission to take the kick and starts to walk away, he is perfectly free to do so. The Lille player only have themselves to blame for taking their own sweet time to get their wall in order. And its definitely not the referee's job to tell them to get their wall in place. Imagine if the referee have to organise the wall for Lille... Wouldn't that look really silly?
It is common sense that a team have to be alert at all times during a match. If anything, this could only be seen as a defensive error by Lille for "switching off".
There is nothing desperate about it, if anything, Giggs was probably brilliant for being alert while the rest went to sleep...
I understand that you are not aiming at man utd, just purely for discussion purpose that is why i am replying to your post and ignore those clones in Sports. If you must know from a sporting perspective, it wasn't wrong.
Compare to what Drogba said today about "I handled the ball [against City] but this is part of the game. I try to score and, if the referee sees the handball, there is a restart."
So if the referee didn't see the handball but the cameras did? From a sporting perspective, which was worse? -
If its in sporting perspective den lille is the team tat need to be condem. not manu. Its juz one of the tactics rather den desperate.Originally posted by stellazio:erm since when does a throw in requires a whistle?
like i said, if man utd was leading 3-0, definitely the free kick will not be taken like that. yes its legal, but its not being sporting. if man utd was on the receiving end of it, i'm sure there'll be lot of complaints too.
thats why i used the word desperate..
yes yes i know it hurts becuz all u guys are man utd fans..
but listen, i'm not aiming at man utd, i'm saying from a sporting perspective, is this right??
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Haiz.. nbz.. so many complaints.. everyone boycott soccer la.
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Source: (Print) TNP, p58, "You Lucky Devils" (21/02/07)
Subheading: "Surprise"
"..December, 2004...Thierry Henry... similar controversy..."
"Back then, he caught the Chelsea defence by surprise, scoring with a quickly-taken free-kick..."
"Graham Poll, the official for that particular game, said afterwards: "First, you have to deal with the principle of a free-kick. If the attacking team are fouled, then it is they who hold the advantage.
"With a free-kick around the penalty area, we always ask the players whether they want it quick or slow.
"This is their window of opportunity to surprise the defence."
He added that there was nothing in the laws of the game stating that a referee had to indicate for the free-kick to be taken."
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Taken from other forum. -
I think it all boils down to the referee.
if it was taken too fast, or ball's rolling, he can always order a re-take, right?
If the player asked the referee whether he can take a fast one, and referee okay and walked away. I don't see what's the fuzz is about.
If MUFC falls due to this type of freekick, blame it on the defence for sleeping.
Yes, there will surely be some moaning and complaining but at least MUFC would have got on with the game.
So be it desperate or whatever, if the referee allows, what's wrong with it?
Isn't his decision final?
And for Henry not doing this type, cause more defence are alert to his antics so harder for him to do it and not by choice? -
To be fair, I think each club will have their own share of "dirty" or unsporting events.Originally posted by zocoss:I have seen many times when a player is taking his own sweet time to take a throw in referee will blow his whistle...
So what is sporting to you? Unsporting would probably be a defender pulling down a player once he has got pass him and on his way to goal. But it still happens, most defenders are taught to bring down a player should he be thru to goal. It doesn't matter if a team is leading 3-0 or losing 1-0, most important thing is, was it legal? And the answer as you have said yourself yes it is. Cos at the end of the day, the most important decision is the referee's.
Once the referee has given the player on the ball the permission to take the kick and starts to walk away, he is perfectly free to do so. The Lille player only have themselves to blame for taking their own sweet time to get their wall in order. And its definitely not the referee's job to tell them to get their wall in place. Imagine if the referee have to organise the wall for Lille... Wouldn't that look really silly?
It is common sense that a team have to be alert at all times during a match. If anything, this could only be seen as a defensive error by Lille for "switching off".
There is nothing desperate about it, if anything, Giggs was probably brilliant for being alert while the rest went to sleep...
I understand that you are not aiming at man utd, just purely for discussion purpose that is why i am replying to your post and ignore those clones in Sports. If you must know from a sporting perspective, it wasn't wrong.
Compare to what Drogba said today about "I handled the ball [against City] but this is part of the game. I try to score and, if the referee sees the handball, there is a restart."
So if the referee didn't see the handball but the cameras did? From a sporting perspective, which was worse? -
End of the day is, referee allowed Giggs' goal. Period.
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u mean when i quoted chelsea on u , it means i have something against u ? u mean chelsea is ur life ? , hope not.Originally posted by stellazio:you have nth against me, sure. but u keep using chelsea this chelsea that to make it sound like what man utd did was right. but frankly, i have yet to see chelsea score this kinda free kicks.
why i use the word desperate?becuz if man utd was leading 3-0, i dare to bet giggs wun take the free kick this way. heck if it was ronaldo who took the free kick i won;t say much, since he has a bad reputation anyway.
and yes , i repeat again , manutd was desperate to win the match , same applies to all the team playing champions League.
and since u said eager and desperate is 2 separate thing , i guess i shld phrase it this way , " giggs eagers to win the match , thus the quick free kick " anything wrong ?
at 1st , i couldnt confirm whether thats a valid goal or not , but when i read the reports online and newpaper , i thought there wont be any thread like this , because its clearly a valid goal.
manutd valid goal = unprofessional
manutd non-valid goal = cheats
seriously , if u really think its so unprofessional , go complain to UEFA for making this rule. i seriously cant think of a reason why its so unprofessional for a team that is so eager to win the champions league by scoring a VALID GOAL THAT IS ALLOW IN THE RULE BOOK OF UEFA
and do u know why UEFA comes out with this rule ? i lazy to explain , go read the newpaper. -
anyone got any hard evidence regarding the rule?
cause if it is clearly stated, then all can't argue, including those airhead who are calling others cheats. -
I think it's got nothing to do with evidence or rule. As long as MUFC scores a goal, these pple wun be happy anyway, regardless of whether it's a valid goal or whether it's professional or notOriginally posted by iceFatboy:anyone got any hard evidence regarding the rule?
cause if it is clearly stated, then all can't argue, including those airhead who are calling others cheats. As mentioned in earlier posts, if it's their fav team that's in this position now, they would have a diff story to tell.
So let's keep our heads up cos ultimately, it's OUR FAV TEAM who had won the match now - the UEFA-approved way
We should move on and support them in the next match. If these pple so "kan bu kai", den jus let them dwell and mope...it's not even their fav team losing somemore...
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UEFA'S replay shocker
By PAUL JIGGINS
MANCHESTER UNITED could be forced to replay the controversial Champions League clash against Lille.
UEFA announced last night they are to hold separate investigations into the on and off-field incidents that marred TuesdayÂ’s tie in Lens.
The French made a formal complaint about ref Eric Braamhaar, who allowed Ryan Giggs to score the winner with a quickly-taken free-kick.
UEFAÂ’s French president Michel Platini is known for his anti-English views and there are fears he will uphold his countrymenÂ’s complaint at tomorrowÂ’s meeting.
Lille president Michel Seydoux said he will be complaining directly to Platini.
Seydoux said: “I will call Michel Platini, who says he defends the beautiful game and the little teams.
“We have developed a beautiful game and we are a little team.”
Amazingly, a separate investigation into the crowd control problems will not be heard until March 22.
Several United fans were injured in a crush that brought back memories of the Hillsborough disaster.
Dozens of fans tried to climb a 10ft-high security fence in Lens to escape the crush.
But French police then over-reacted by spraying the supporters with teargas as they tried to escape the danger.
UEFA will not, however, discuss the incident until two weeks after the second leg at Old Trafford.
A UEFA spokesman said: “The reason for the two dates is because a protest against a technical error could mean the match being replayed, if the protest was upheld.
“So the question over the goal would have to be decided way earlier than March 22, since the return leg is due to take place in two weeks’ time.”
well, it helps if you got the right connection.. Wonder when Charlton is running for the UEFA President. -
Uefa set to dismiss Lille's protest over Giggs' goal
Published: 22 February 2007
Uefa, Manchester United and Lille spent yesterday gathering evidence ahead of a three-pronged investigation which will underline that, more than a century after the entente cordiale, England and France remain two very distinct cultures.
Football's governing body in Europe will examine Lille's staging of Tuesday's tempestuous Champions League tie, in the wake of the crowd problems which affected it, on 22 March, while the French club's threatened walk-out in protest at Ryan Giggs' winning goal, as well as a formal complaint by Lille about the awarding of that goal, will be dealt with tomorrow.
The latter complaint is likely to be rapidly dismissed. Under Fifa guidelines Eric Braamhaar, the Dutch referee, was correct in allowing Giggs' goal, scored from a free-kick taken while Tony Sylva, the Lille goalkeeper, was lining up his defensive wall. Such flexible refereeing may be rare in Le Championnat but given that Thierry Henry has twice scored such goals in the Premiership, and once for France, the French game can hardly be unaware of the practice.
The other issues are more complex. The most urgent is the inquiry into Lille's reaction to Giggs' goal. The second leg, at Old Trafford, is just 13 days hence and the disciplinary process must be completed by then. Uefa was yesterday awaiting the report of its match delegate, Trygve Borno, of Norway. The Uefa spokesman Rob Faulkner said: "We cannot say now what action the disciplinary committee will take, but if they find against Lille, it could well be severe." Uefa was encouraged to be firm by the Manchester United manager, Sir Alex Ferguson, who branded Lille's behaviour "a disgrace".
Michel Seydoux, the Lille president, and the coach Claude Puel insisted the walk-out was not an attempt to get the game abandoned. Seydoux added: "It was an emotional moment and that is the way - you put a reserve on the fourth referee. They are the French rules. Maybe it is not the same in the Champions League."
It is true that French clubs do, on rare occasions, make such a protest to the fourth official when they feel wronged, and they do so the next time the ball goes out. However, the protest does not usually involve so many players, nor is it common for coaching staff to be summoning the team off the field, as happened on Tuesday night. The Dutch officials, and United players, had no idea what was going on, and Uefa can be expected to take a dim view.
Had Lille's players refused to continue the club could have expected to be expelled from this season's competition and banned from next season's at the very least. As it was they may be fined heavily but allowed to play on under threat of a suspended ban. Seydoux may also be censured by Uefa for alleging that Braamhaar was biased.
He said: "If Lille had done the same thing the referee would not have allowed the goal. Our players could not understand the decision because it would not have happened at the other end."
The most difficult aspect of the inquiry will involve the crowd problems in Lens. Again there is a cultural difference. The prime cause may have been overcrowding, possibly a consequence of police allowing United supporters with tickets for the Lille section to move into the away end. When supporters who were being crushed as a result tried to escape the police violently over-reacted, wielding batons and spraying tear gas.
However, the police could point out that United fans had no business buying tickets allocated to home supporters and should have dispersed themselves better - from a distance it was clear there was room at the end of the section. Better stewarding could have solved the latter problem but the conflict was partly a consequence of different experiences. Having not suffered a Hillsborough the French are less aware of the dangers of crushing, but they are worried about hooliganism. It was in Lens that Daniel Nivel, a policeman, was kicked to death by German hooligans during France '98. Many of the Lens police will have been nervous, frightened even. When they saw the United fans trying to get on to the pitch it is no surprise the first assumption was a pitch invasion was intended. The crowd problems, incidentally, have been virtually ignored in the French media.
The United goalkeeper Edwin van der Sar, who suffered blurred vision as a result of the tear gas being used at his end of the field, has shrugged off Lille's complaints and said that the French club only have themselves to blame.
In particular, Van der Sar has little sympathy for his Lille counterpart Sylva, who was still lining up his wall when Giggs stroked home the free-kick. "It is obvious as a keeper you have to be aware of situations like that," the Dutchman said.
"The rules are the same everywhere. If a player asks the referee if he can take a quick free-kick, he can take it. We have seen this kind of thing happen all over Europe and Ryan showed good imagination by taking advantage of the situation. As a keeper, that kind of thing will probably happen to you once in your career. It was a good time for it to happen in our favour."
Van der Sar was unaware of the exact nature of the problem behind him, though he said: "The problem definitely distracted me. I know they used tear gas or something because in the last 20 minutes of the first half I got blurred vision. Thankfully, the physios put some fluid in my eye at half-time and that stopped the problem."
Giggs' Goal
With seven minutes remaining and the game goalless Manchester United were awarded a free-kick. As Tony Sylva, the goalkeeper, lined up his defensive wall, Ryan Giggs asked the Dutch referee if he could take a quick kick. Eric Braamhaar agreed. Giggs scored. Sylva was booked amid protests by Lille. The French club then kicked the ball into touch from the kick-off and began to walk off. After several minutes of argument involving match officials, and players and staff of both clubs, play resumed with a United throw-in.
The Free-Kick Law
The referee only needs to blow his whistle if the attacking team ask him to move the wall back. Otherwise, the kick can be taken quickly, without warning. -
Uefa should pardon Puel: let United kick him out instead
Tony Cascarino
Strange guy, Claude Puel. Part Arsène Wenger, part Alan Titchmarsh. The Lille coach played under Wenger and idolises him. No doubt Puel thinks about how to emulate Wenger’s success with Arsenal as he gets stuck in with his trowel.
Like Wenger, Puel prefers creating stars to buying them. That’s no doubt one of the attractions Lille holds for him — the chance to mould a club in his image. When in charge of Monaco, the club he played for, he had a bust-up with Fabien Barthez. The goalkeeper left for Old Trafford.
Puel also has the Wenger-like ability to detach himself from the heat of the moment and calmly look at the bigger picture. There is a distant quality about him, a cold ruthlessness, despite his passion.
When I played in France, most managers would introduce themselves before the game, but he just stood on the touchline, self-absorbed. Also like Wenger, he is a bad loser. That makes me surprised that when his players walked off on Tuesday, he stood motionless. I would have expected him to get angry and tell them to get back on and get the equaliser.
Puel explained his players walking off by saying: “In France the tradition is to make a protest at the first pause in the game and then after the match.” Fascinating. Somehow, despite playing in France for eight seasons and commentating on French football for three, I have missed this tradition.
Whether it was the playersÂ’ idea, PuelÂ’s or his assistantÂ’s, they made a stance that backfired. The match was completed, so I donÂ’t think Uefa should ban Lille from the tournament. Let Manchester United kick them out, not Uefa. And they will. If Lille get two goals at Old Trafford, I will be utterly amazed. I might as well give up punditry.
Where Puel differs from Wenger is that his team have virtually no flair, built to keep clean sheets. In two weeks, I expect them to be walking dejectedly off the pitch after 90 minutes, not 83. -
He's right, let united kick them out of the champins league, afterall, they deserved to get kicked out for the pre game outbursts on United players pay check, the sportsmanship of their players, their staffs and fans and worst of all their french police league and the security that was provided for the United fans.. Utterly shameless!!!
Lets see how Lille fans feel if the English Authorities decides to deploy a fan cage (KNN 21swt century oredi still use this kind) and throw tear gas at its fans in OT!!
and for god's sake its a champions league, at least UEFA should have decided upon the condition of the pitch if it was playable... -
So taking a quick free kick is in your words a means of desperation? wow.. i didn't know that , maybe you know something about UEFA rules on quick freekick that i don't? not getting defensive here, but your point of statement especially thw word 'desperation' does not merit a justified action, it only merely proves you are out to discredit or taunt the United's Fan here on the goal by Giggs against Lille. Please don;t try to sound like you are out to have a 'reasonable' discussion, your thread proves otherwise..Originally posted by stellazio:do u still see henry doing it nowadays?
btw u haven't answered my question about desperation..
erm its ok if you wana get defensive and not answer, i know it hurts.. -
what will make a player take aquick free kick when the keeper is not prepared other then desperation?Originally posted by 4getmenot:So taking a quick free kick is in your words a means of desperation? wow.. i didn't know that , maybe you know something about UEFA rules on quick freekick that i don't? not getting defensive here, but your point of statement especially thw word 'desperation' does not merit a justified action, it only merely proves you are out to discredit or taunt the United's Fan here on the goal by Giggs against Lille. Please don;t try to sound like you are out to have a 'reasonable' discussion, your thread proves otherwise..
will giggs have done it when 3-0 up?
and when did i post a thread about this?? -
is man utd your life? yes its legal, but its not a glory way to win a match, as seen by the man utd players celebration. even a man utd fan said this.Originally posted by givemeluck:u mean when i quoted chelsea on u , it means i have something against u ? u mean chelsea is ur life ? , hope not.
and yes , i repeat again , manutd was desperate to win the match , same applies to all the team playing champions League.
and since u said eager and desperate is 2 separate thing , i guess i shld phrase it this way , " giggs eagers to win the match , thus the quick free kick " anything wrong ?
at 1st , i couldnt confirm whether thats a valid goal or not , but when i read the reports online and newpaper , i thought there wont be any thread like this , because its clearly a valid goal.
manutd valid goal = unprofessional
manutd non-valid goal = cheats
seriously , if u really think its so unprofessional , go complain to UEFA for making this rule. i seriously cant think of a reason why its so unprofessional for a team that is so eager to win the champions league by scoring a VALID GOAL THAT IS ALLOW IN THE RULE BOOK OF UEFA
and do u know why UEFA comes out with this rule ? i lazy to explain , go read the newpaper.
lets look at it this way, the rules contradicts itself, because alot of teams send a men infront of the ball to block out the chance of a quick free kick. yes a quick free kick is legalize yet why do they keep letting a men block the path of the ball? -
Defending teams that are alert and experienced will usually do that. In case the attacking team is attempting a LEGAL quick free kick. UEFA allows quick free kicks, but they also leave it up to the defending team to send a man to block the attempt. For this match, blame it on Lille for not being alert enough.Originally posted by stellazio:is man utd your life? yes its legal, but its not a glory way to win a match, as seen by the man utd players celebration. even a man utd fan said this.
lets look at it this way, the rules contradicts itself, because alot of teams send a men infront of the ball to block out the chance of a quick free kick. yes a quick free kick is legalize yet why do they keep letting a men block the path of the ball? -
nope , not my life.Originally posted by stellazio:is man utd your life? yes its legal, but its not a glory way to win a match, as seen by the man utd players celebration. even a man utd fan said this.
lets look at it this way, the rules contradicts itself, because alot of teams send a men infront of the ball to block out the chance of a quick free kick. yes a quick free kick is legalize yet why do they keep letting a men block the path of the ball?
u haven't ans my question , is chelsea ur life ? because it seems that i got something against U when i mentioned chelsea
eh...b4 u post here again....do U KNOW WHY QUICK FREE KICK IS ALLOW ? DO U ? did u read the newpaper on that day ? can u plz read b4 posting here ?
even till this day , i still dont understand WHATS WRONG WITH DESPERATELY WINNING A MATCH.