Jesus never abolished the Law!!!
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In Matthew 5:17 we are told that Yeshua came to fulfill the law and not abolish it. And in it continues in verse 18 to say that "18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
So how then can we say that Yeshua abolished the law on the cross? These are the Messiah's very own words.
In the light of this, why do so many believers and so called professing christians say that Yeshua has abolished the law on the cross? This is heresy because by saying this you say that Yeshua as the word of Elohim made a mistake when He wrote the law. Yahweh is not this inconsistent.
What Yeshua did was to abolish the enimity which was caused by the law between Jew and Gentile, but the law still remains because we are told over and over to keep the commandments. Yeshua becomes the sole reason why we as gentiles can be saved because without Yeshua, the gentiles could not have gained access into the commonwealth of Israel or to the covenants of Yahweh or any of Yahweh's promises.
Note that the bible never mentions ever a commonwealth of gentiles or any other nation for that matter, but a commonwealth of Israel. This is consistent with the fact that we are the wildbranches which are grafted in and not the other way around. We are grafted into become like the Jews because salvation is of the Jews not the gentiles. We are to become like Yahweh's chosen. We are to become like Yeshua. -
And if the law is indeed abolilshed as many christians claim, then why do we find the following verses from the book of acts:
Acts 21:24
24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
Here we see Shaul (Paul) keeping the law as required when confronted by the elders at Jerusalem, but the more interesting point is the four men that he took into the temple to be purified, they were greeks and not jews, yet they were keeping the law.
Also in Acts 24:14 Shaul says this
14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.
Amazing, Shaul does not advocate the abolishing of the law either for if he did why would he say he believed all things which are written in the law?
And in Acts 28:23
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.
Shaul used the law to persuade people about the truth of Yeshua.
Thus if you say that the law has been abolished then those who are christians do not have any hope anymore because if Yeshua cannot be proven that He is Messiah, then the gentiles have not hope. But because the law proves the Messiah, we as gentiles have this hope. -
can we do an exploration on the following questions?
1) What is the purpose/practice of the various offerings in the OT, especially the Sin offering, Peace offering ..etc
The reason is, I am hoping to draw an understanding on the doctrine on what does it means when we say, Yeshuah is the perfect lamb sacrified for our sins, making peace and reconciling man to Adonai Yehovah.
2) The role/purpose of the Levitian priesthood, especially that for the High Priest, both before YHVH and before man.
This is to understand the role Yeshuah plays as our High Priest before Yehovah after His resurrection.
Shalom...
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Hi Jamison and Shalom.Originally posted by Jamison:can i let the Bible talk to you dear boy..your tryin to put us under law
having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; (Eph 2:15)
So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
(Gal. 2:23-24)
"...........For you are not under law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14) you talking about growth dear boy? That was Paul's topic in this verse?
You are a Judaizer boy : stop putting us under the Old agreement. we are in the new agreement.
Let us discuss these verses that you bring up.
Lets start by looking at Ephesians 2:6-16 (amplified bible)
6And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us [b]joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
7He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([c]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
10For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), [d]recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].
11Therefore, remember that at one time you were Gentiles (heathens) in the flesh, called Uncircumcision by those who called themselves Circumcision, [itself a [e]mere mark] in the flesh made by human hands.
12[Remember] that you were at that time separated (living apart) from Christ [excluded from all part in Him], utterly estranged and outlawed from the rights of Israel as a nation, and strangers with no share in the sacred compacts of the [Messianic] promise [with no knowledge of or right in God's agreements, His covenants]. And you had no hope (no promise); you were in the world without God.
13But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were [so] far away, through (by, in) the blood of Christ have been brought near.
14For He is [Himself] our peace (our bond of unity and harmony). He has made us both [Jew and Gentile] one [body], and has broken down (destroyed, abolished) the hostile dividing wall between us,
15By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.
16And [He designed] to reconcile to God both [Jew and Gentile, united] in a single body by means of His cross, thereby killing the mutual enmity and bringing the feud to an end.
Here Shaul makes clear that yes, we are saved by grace v8. But does verse 15 actually say that Yeshua abolished the law? No in the amplified we get a clearer picture of what Shual meant when he said it. By hanging on the cross for us, Yeshua abolished the curse of the law which is death, but Yeshua did not abolish the law because He says very clearly in Matthew 5:17-19
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
According to Yeshua's own words and anyone who teaches so is directly contradicting Yeshua.
But coming now to the verse in question
15By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.
It is clear from the amplified bible that the thing that is abolished is the enmity that is caused by the law. The next portion is what decrees and ordinances did He annull? These decrees and ordinances refer the the rabbinical laws and observances that the pharisees keep which make converts twice the son of hell that they are (Matt 23:15)... these do not refer the Yahweh's original laws which He set down.
It is clear from Ephesians that the work of Yeshua was to destroy the dividing wall between the Jews and the gentiles thus making one nation, the commonwealth of Israel. Eph 2:12
As I have written in my earlier post, the problem is not with the law, but with the covenant. Ie, it was the people who could not keep the law. Heb 8.
Yeshua in Matt 19:16-17 clearly states that if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. Which commandments do you think Yeshua was talking about? Yeshua expects more from us than just mere lip service, in Matt 7:21 He says " No everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he ho does the will of My Father in heaven."
The question now becomes how do we know what the will of OUR Father in heaven is? By knowing and obeying the commandments.
If there was a problem with the commandments, then why would Yahweh say that He was going to write them on our hearts and put them in our minds? In fact He says this twice in the book of Hebrews in chapter 8 and again in chapter 10. -
Hi Jamison, now we shall look at your second verse of Romans 6:14.Originally posted by Jamison:can i let the Bible talk to you dear boy..your tryin to put us under law
having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; (Eph 2:15)
So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
(Gal. 2:23-24)
"...........For you are not under law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14) you talking about growth dear boy? That was Paul's topic in this verse?
You are a Judaizer boy : stop putting us under the Old agreement. we are in the new agreement.
What did Shaul mean by that? even if you take the literal meaning of the verse, it only says this, that we are under grace, which i have never refuted, but did Shual say that we do not have to keep the commandments? I think not. For if this was the case, then why would Shaul say in 1 Corinthians 7:19 "Circumsion is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters"
In his letter to the church in Rome, Shaul said in Rom 1:5 that he and the other apostles "received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations" What did paul strive to obey? If we read further on in Rom 7:21-25, we gain some insight into this, Shaul says
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
If Shaul taught that the law was abolished, they why would he say with the mind I serve the law of Yahweh? Unless that he is serving the law which is written on our hearts and put in our minds according to Hebrews?
In his discourse on the law in Romans 2, Shaul mentions that it is the doers of the law who will be justified and not just hearers only (v13). In v14-15, he says that when gentiles who have no divine law do the law, then they show the essential requirements of the law which is written on their hearts...
In Rom2:18, Shaul speaking to the jews say that they should know and understand the will of Yahweh and are able to discern the better things and what is vital because they were instructed in the law. So if you want to put aside the law, how can you then say that you are able to discern and understand what is vital to Yahweh?
In Acts 24:14, Shaul clearly says this that he worships the God of his fathers and believes all things which are written in the law and the prophets. Even in his preaching to the gentiles, Shaul says that "I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the gentiles to obey God.." Rom 15:18.
Following from all of this, does the new covenant mediated by Yeshua abolish the Ten commandments?
In Heb 8, Yahweh tells us that he altered the original covenant and made a better covenant, established on better promises. Heb 8:6, but it was not established on different laws. The laws stayed the same. What Yahweh did was to remedy the fault in the original covenant, that is the inabillity of the people to keep the law.
In the old covenant, Yahweh wrote His Ten commandments on tablets of stone, it was external, not part of the thinking and motives of the people. It was in their literature, but not in their hearts. In the New covenant, Yahweh writes the law in the hearts and minds of His people, Heb 8:10, Jer 31:33-34. To enable people to internalise His law, to love it and obey it eagerly and willing. That is why Yahweh says in Ezekiel 36:26-27, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to wallk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgements, and do them. It is the Holy Spirit of Yahweh that enables us to obey His laws.
People lacking the Holy Spirit are incapable of wholehearted obedience. Why? “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God” Romans 8:7-8. This is why the Old Covenant and the New Covenant differ. Paul explains that “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin [lawlessness] in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” Romans 8:3-4. See also 1 John 3:4.
In reference to Romans 8:4, “The International Critical Commentary” says: “God’s purpose in ‘condemning’ sin was that His law’s requirement might be fulfilled in us, that is, that his law might be established in the sense of at last being truly and sincerely obeyed, the fulfilment of the promises of Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26” In a footnote to Jeremiah 31:33-34 the commentary explains that this passage “is often misunderstood as a promise of a new law to take the place of the old or else as a promise of a religion without law at all. But the new thing promised in v. 33 is, in fact, neither a new law nor freedom from law, but a sincere inward desire and determination on the part of God’s people to obey the law already given to them...” -
Here is something that will begin this...Originally posted by vince69:can we do an exploration on the following questions?
1) What is the purpose/practice of the various offerings in the OT, especially the Sin offering, Peace offering ..etc
The reason is, I am hoping to draw an understanding on the doctrine on what does it means when we say, Yeshuah is the perfect lamb sacrified for our sins, making peace and reconciling man to Adonai Yehovah.
2) The role/purpose of the Levitian priesthood, especially that for the High Priest, both before YHVH and before man.
This is to understand the role Yeshuah plays as our High Priest before Yehovah after His resurrection.
Shalom...
Ten Commandments and the Ceremonial law
What is the relationship between these two laws and how did they sustain each other? If a man sinned, he broke LAW No. 1, the moral law of the Ten Commandments. Then he brought his offering, according to LAW No. 2, the law of sacrifices, and he received forgiveness. Here the two laws were brought into right relation. LAW No. 1 defines sin, for sin is the transgression of the moral law, the Ten Commandments. 1 John 3:4 LAW No. 2 defined sacrifices, the ceremonial law which was the remedy for sin. When the Israelite sinned, he broke the first law. To secure forgiveness he had to obey the second law. So here are two very distinct laws of which this fact cannot be overlooked. Christ became that One and perfect final sacrifice for us when He cried out “It is finished” and bowed His head and died. See Hebrews 10:8-10
Moral Law (Ten Commandments)
1. Spoken by God Himself. Exodus 20:1,22.
2. Was written by God. Exodus 31:18; Exodus 32:16.
3. On stones. Exodus 31:18.
4. Handed by God its writer, to Moses. Exodus 31:18.
5. Deposited by Moses “in the ark”. Deuteronomy 10:5.
6. Deals with moral precepts. Exodus 20:3-17.
7. Reveals sin. Romans 7:7.
8. Breaking of “the law” is “sin”. 1 John 3:4.
9. Should “keep the whole law”. James 2:10.
10. Because we “shall be judged” by this law. James 2:12
11. The Christian who keeps this law is “blessed in his deed”. James 1:25.
12. “The perfect law of liberty”. James 1:25 (Cf. James 2:12).
13. Paul said, “I delight in the law of God”. Romans 7:22 (Cf. verse 7).
14. Established by faith in Christ. Romans 3:31.
15. Christ was to “magnify the law and make it honorable”. Isaiah 42:21.
16. Eternal? Yes. Psalm 111:7-8, Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17
17. Good? Yes. Romans 7:12
18. Points out sin. 1 John 3:4
19. Obey Now? Yes. Matthew 5:19
20. Perfect? Yes. James 1:25, Psalm 19:7.
21. Liberty? (freedom) Yes. James 2:11-12
22. GodÂ’s Sabbath. Began at creation. Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11
23. GodÂ’s Sabbath. Before sin. Genesis 2:1-3
Ceremonial Law (temporary Jewish law)
1. Spoken by Moses. Exodus 24:3.
2. Written by Moses. Exodus 24:4; Deuteronomy 31:9.
3. In a book. Exodus 24:3, 7; Deuteronomy 31:24.
4. Handed by Moses, its writer to Levites. Deuteronomy 31:25-26.
5. Deposited by the Levites “by the side of the ark”. Deuteronomy 31:26, ARV.
6. Deals with ceremonial, ritual matters. (See parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy).
7. Prescribes offerings for sins. (See book of Leviticus).
8. No sin in breaking, for now “abolished”. Ephesians 2:15. (Where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15.)
9. Apostles gave “no such commandment” to "keep the law". Acts 15:24.
10. Not to be judged by it. Colossians 2:16.
11. The Christian who keeps this law is not blessed. (See for example, Galatians 5:1-6).
12. The Christian who keeps this law loses his liberty. Galatians 5:1,3.
13. Paul called this law a “yoke of bondage”. Galatians 5:1; Galatians 4:3, 9 (See Acts 15:10).
14. Abolished by Christ. Ephesians 2:15.
15. Blotted “out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us”. Colossians 2:14.
16. Eternal? No. Hebrews 7:12, Galatians 3:19, Colossians 2:14
17. Good? No. Colossians 2:14, Galatians 4:9.
18. Points to Jesus. Leviticus 4:27-31
19. Obey Now? No. Colossians 2:14-17, Galatians 4:9-10
20. Perfect? No. Hebrews 7:19
21. Liberty? No. It was bondage. Galatians 4:9, 5:1
Note: Freedom and bondage are exact opposites.
22. Ceremonial Sabbaths. Began after Sinai. Exodus 20:24
23. Ceremonial Sabbaths. After Sin. Leviticus 23:4 -
It is interesting that you mention that Shual is under the law of Yeshua. But what law is that exactly?Originally posted by Jamison:can i quote Paul:
.... He is not under the torah. he is under Christ's law.
Let me preface this will a verse Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord I change not...
Yeshua said, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another” John 13:34. Did Yeshua replace the clear definitions of the Ten Commandments with a new religious principle that love alone can guide our lives? Does this new commandment supersede the Ten Commandments and replace all other biblical laws? Yeshua clearly answered this fundamental question when He said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets” Matthew 5:17.
Yet many people who believe in Yeshua as their Saviour also believe this new commandment frees them from any obligation to obey Yahweh's 10 Commandments. They misunderstand what Yeshua said and meant. The Holy Scriptures, in the Old and New Testaments, teach that we should love each other (Leviticus 19:1 and love God with all our heart, soul and mind (Deuteronomy 6:5). Yeshua did not introduce love as some new principle. That was already in the Bible from the beginning and a fundamental part of YahwehÂ’s instruction to the children of Israel.
What then was new in Yeshua’s “new commandment”? Notice His wording. He said we are to “love one another; as I have loved you...” What was new was His own example of love! The whole world has, in Jesus, a perfect model of the love of God in Yeshua’s perfect example of loving obedience. Yeshua loved us so much that He sacrificed His own life for us. He Himself explained, “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends” John 15:13.
Yeshua came as the light of the world to illuminate the application and practice of the royal law of love. We no longer have an excuse for saying we don’t understand what to do or how to do it. Yeshua demonstrated what loving obedience is all about, “If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” John 15:10.
We comply with JesusÂ’ new commandment when we obey all Yahweh's 10 Commandments in a genuinely loving manner and are willing to risk our lives for the sake of others.
So therefore we see that Yeshua's law is exactly that the ten commandments given to us from Yahweh. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Hi Jamison and Shalom.
Let us discuss these verses that you bring up.
Lets start by looking at Ephesians 2:6-16 (amplified bible)
6And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us [b]joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
7He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([c]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
10For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), [d]recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].
11Therefore, remember that at one time you were Gentiles (heathens) in the flesh, called Uncircumcision by those who called themselves Circumcision, [itself a [e]mere mark] in the flesh made by human hands.
12[Remember] that you were at that time separated (living apart) from Christ [excluded from all part in Him], utterly estranged and outlawed from the rights of Israel as a nation, and strangers with no share in the sacred compacts of the [Messianic] promise [with no knowledge of or right in God's agreements, His covenants]. And you had no hope (no promise); you were in the world without God.
13But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were [so] far away, through (by, in) the blood of Christ have been brought near.
14For He is [Himself] our peace (our bond of unity and harmony). He has made us both [Jew and Gentile] one [body], and has broken down (destroyed, abolished) the hostile dividing wall between us,
15By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.
16And [He designed] to reconcile to God both [Jew and Gentile, united] in a single body by means of His cross, thereby killing the mutual enmity and bringing the feud to an end.
Here Shaul makes clear that yes, we are saved by grace v8. But does verse 15 actually say that Yeshua abolished the law? No in the amplified we get a clearer picture of what Shual meant when he said it. By hanging on the cross for us, Yeshua abolished the curse of the law which is death, but Yeshua did not abolish the law because He says very clearly in Matthew 5:17-19
But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, {Gal.4:4}
that's why.
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
before the cross period.
According to Yeshua's own words and anyone who teaches so is directly contradicting Yeshua.
But coming now to the verse in question
15By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.
It is clear from the amplified bible that the thing that is abolished is the enmity that is caused by the law. The next portion is what decrees and ordinances did He annull? These decrees and ordinances refer the the rabbinical laws and observances that the pharisees keep which make converts twice the son of hell that they are (Matt 23:15)... these do not refer the Yahweh's original laws which He set down.
Having cancelled and blottted out and wiped away the handwriting of the note (bond) with its legal decrees and demands which was in force and stood against us (hostile to us). This [note] with its regulations, decrees, and demands] He set aside and cleared completely out of our way by nailing it to [His] cross. {Amplified Bible} Col. 2:14
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace (Ephesians 2:15) NIV
It is clear from Ephesians that the work of Yeshua was to destroy the dividing wall between the Jews and the gentiles thus making one nation, the commonwealth of Israel. Eph 2:12
What divided the Jews from the Gentiles? The Law
As I have written in my earlier post, the problem is not with the law, but with the covenant. Ie, it was the people who could not keep the law. Heb 8.
Yeshua in Matt 19:16-17 clearly states that if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. Which commandments do you think Yeshua was talking about? Yeshua expects more from us than just mere lip service, in Matt 7:21 He says " No everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he ho does the will of My Father in heaven."
The question now becomes how do we know what the will of OUR Father in heaven is? By knowing and obeying the commandments.
If there was a problem with the commandments, then why would Yahweh say that He was going to write them on our hearts and put them in our minds? In fact He says this twice in the book of Hebrews in chapter 8 and again in chapter 10. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don't be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. (Galatians 5:1)
Hi Jamison, now we shall look at your second verse of Romans 6:14.
What did Shaul mean by that? even if you take the literal meaning of the verse, it only says this, that we are under grace, which i have never refuted, but did Shual say that we do not have to keep the commandments? I think not. For if this was the case, then why would Shaul say in [b]1 Corinthians 7:19 "Circumsion is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters"
commands of grace
In his letter to the church in Rome, Shaul said in Rom 1:5 that he and the other apostles "received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations" What did paul strive to obey? If we read further on in Rom 7:21-25, we gain some insight into this, Shaul says
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
If Shaul taught that the law was abolished, they why would he say with the mind I serve the law of Yahweh? Unless that he is serving the law which is written on our hearts and put in our minds according to Hebrews?
1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law.
In his discourse on the law in Romans 2, Shaul mentions that it is the doers of the law who will be justified and not just hearers only (v13). In v14-15, he says that when gentiles who have no divine law do the law, then they show the essential requirements of the law which is written on their hearts...
the moral aspect of the law
In Rom2:18, Shaul speaking to the jews say that they should know and understand the will of Yahweh and are able to discern the better things and what is vital because they were instructed in the law. So if you want to put aside the law, how can you then say that you are able to discern and understand what is vital to Yahweh?
we have the mind of Christ
In Acts 24:14, Shaul clearly says this that he worships the God of his fathers and believes all things which are written in the law and the prophets.
like Paul we believe the things written in the law. we learn from it. we are to study it. but we are not under it.
Even in his preaching to the gentiles, Shaul says that "I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the gentiles to obey God.." Rom 15:18.
he did not mention the law. we obey the commands of the grace of God
Following from all of this, does the new covenant mediated by Yeshua abolish the Ten commandments?
In Heb 8, Yahweh tells us that he altered the original covenant and made a better covenant, established on better promises. Heb 8:6, but it was not established on different laws. The laws stayed the same. What Yahweh did was to remedy the fault in the original covenant, that is the inabillity of the people to keep the law.
tricky. But: In that he says, "A new covenant," he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away. [Heb 8:13]
In the old covenant, Yahweh wrote His Ten commandments on tablets of stone, it was external, not part of the thinking and motives of the people. It was in their literature, but not in their hearts. In the New covenant, Yahweh writes the law in the hearts and minds of His people, Heb 8:10, Jer 31:33-34.
Not the law but lawS. "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people.
it does not say Old covenant law
To enable people to internalise His law, to love it and obey it eagerly and willing. That is why Yahweh says in Ezekiel 36:26-27, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to wallk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgements, and do them. It is the Holy Spirit of Yahweh that enables us to obey His laws.
Christians benefit the spiritual blessings of the new covenant law. no probs.
People lacking the Holy Spirit are incapable of wholehearted obedience. Why? “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God” Romans 8:7-8. This is why the Old Covenant and the New Covenant differ. Paul explains that “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin [lawlessness] in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” Romans 8:3-4. See also 1 John 3:4.
in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. in us. not by us. "in us" not "by us" The Christian's rule of life is the Spirit in him. When he walks by the Spirit the result is: "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." The Spirit in the Christian does not need the law. With or without the law he produces love. And love is the fulfillment of the law.
In reference to Romans 8:4, “The International Critical Commentary” says: “God’s purpose in ‘condemning’ sin was that His law’s requirement might be fulfilled in us, that is, that his law might be established in the sense of at last being truly and sincerely obeyed, the fulfilment of the promises of Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26” In a footnote to Jeremiah 31:33-34 the commentary explains that this passage “is often misunderstood as a promise of a new law to take the place of the old or else as a promise of a religion without law at all.
Our law is Jesus. To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law.Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit to God. (Ro 7:4) to me to live is Christ (not the law) For I, through the law, died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. (Gal. 2:19-20)
As Marquee Mathup said: just as Christians died to sin, Christians died to the law. Christians have nothing to do with sin. They died to it. The same with the Law. Christians died to it. they have nothing to do with it. We live not by the Law but by faith in the Son of God inside us to whom we died with.
But the new thing promised in v. 33 is, in fact, neither a new law nor freedom from law, but a sincere inward desire and determination on the part of God’s people to obey the law already given to them...”
[/b]
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses."(Acts 15:5) Now therefore why do you tempt God, that you should put a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Acts 15:10)I just want to learn this from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3)not convincing lah.... -
double
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:In Matthew 5:17 we are told that Yeshua came to fulfill the law and not abolish it. And in it continues in verse 18 to say that "18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
TILL all is fulfilled
So how then can we say that Yeshua abolished the law on the cross? These are the Messiah's very own words.
In the light of this, why do so many believers and so called professing christians say that Yeshua has abolished the law on the cross? This is heresy because by saying this you say that Yeshua as the word of Elohim made a mistake when He wrote the law. Yahweh is not this inconsistent.
The law was ADDED so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more (Romans 5:20)it was added. it was not there before. was he being inconsistent in adding it when it was not there before?
What Yeshua did was to abolish the enimity which was caused by the law between Jew and Gentile, but the law still remains because we are told over and over to keep the commandments.
what commandments? Moses?If you love me, keep MY commandments. John 14:15
"But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written IN THEIR LAW,'They hated Me without a cause.'Joh 15:25
Yeshua becomes the sole reason why we as gentiles can be saved because without Yeshua, the gentiles could not have gained access into the commonwealth of Israel or to the covenants of Yahweh or any of Yahweh's promises.
Note that the bible never mentions ever a commonwealth of gentiles or any other nation for that matter, but a commonwealth of Israel. This is consistent with the fact that we are the wildbranches which are grafted in and not the other way around. We are grafted into become like the Jews because salvation is of the Jews not the gentiles. We are to become like Yahweh's chosen. We are to become like Yeshua.
Christians are a separate chosen people.
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blemish before him in love; eph. 1:4 -
We believe in the Law. We are not against the Law. we are not however under its 613 commandments.Originally posted by breytonhartge:And if the law is indeed abolilshed as many christians claim, then why do we find the following verses from the book of acts:
Acts 21:24
24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
Here we see Shaul (Paul) keeping the law as required when confronted by the elders at Jerusalem, but the more interesting point is the four men that he took into the temple to be purified, they were greeks and not jews, yet they were keeping the law.
Also in Acts 24:14 Shaul says this
14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.
Amazing, Shaul does not advocate the abolishing of the law either for if he did why would he say he believed all things which are written in the law?
Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no occasions for stumbling, either to Jews, or to Greeks, or to the assembly of God; even as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many,..........(1 cOR. 10:31-33)
Paul wanted to have him go out with him, and he took and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts; for they all knew that his father was a Greek.Ac 16:3
And in Acts 28:23
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.
Shaul used the law to persuade people about the truth of Yeshua.
Christians are not against the Law. Christians are not to live out the prophecies of the Law of Moses, they are prophecies. Christians are not against Law. We study it. We believe it, apply its PRINCIPLES but we are not under its jurisdiction. We are under law to Christ.
Thus if you say that the law has been abolished then those who are christians do not have any hope anymore because if Yeshua cannot be proven that He is Messiah, then the gentiles have not hope. But because the law proves the Messiah, we as gentiles have this hope. -
Rom 11:17-21Originally posted by Jamison:
Christians are a separate chosen people.
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blemish before him in love; eph. 1:4
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Romans 11:25-27
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
Becareful that you do not get arrogant, if christians are truly a separate chosen people, than why do you need to be grafted into the true vine? If you are grafted means you become part of and are by no means separate.
The natural branches can grow back, but if the grafted branches are cut off, then that is it. They lose their sustenence. -
You say you are under law to Yeshua. Then this begs the question, what law did Yeshua teach?Originally posted by Jamison:Christians are not against the Law. Christians are not to live out the prophecies of the Law of Moses, they are prophecies. Christians are not against Law. We study it. We believe it, apply its PRINCIPLES but we are not under its jurisdiction. We are under law to Christ.
To which from your previous post, you will under the law of grace. So then define the law of grace to me.
If you believe it, study it and apply it are you not already obeying the law? -
Jamison
A few qestions for you.
What is the mind of Yeshua?
What do you mean by being under the commandment of grace?
Is obeying the law being under the law?
What are the commands of the grace of Yahweh?
So what are the laws of the new covenant?
You say in your post quoting this:
As Marquee Mathup said: just as Christians died to sin, Christians died to the law. Christians have nothing to do with sin. They died to it. The same with the Law. Christians died to it. they have nothing to do with it. We live not by the Law but by faith in the Son of God inside us to whom we died with.
So by this statement you mean that if christians have died to sin and that they have nothing to do with it, so you say that by interpretation that it is impossible for all christians to sin since christians have nothing to do with it?
You mention till all have been fulfilled, have all been fulfilled? How many prophecies remain in the bible unfulfilled? Has Yeshua fulfilled all the feasts of Yahweh yet? If not then the law still remains. -
Grace, Faith and the Law
Paul taught that salvation is a gift from God by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:. The Greek word for “grace” is charis, meaning a gift or favour. In the New Testament it can refer either to God’s gift of mercy or to His gracious favour. Paul makes it clear throughout his writings that God’s grace leading to salvation is “not of works, lest anyone should boast” (verse 9). But Paul’s overall perspective toward Christian works is generally ignored by opponents of obedience to God’s law. Look at Paul’s perspective in the next verse. “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them” (verse 10). Those who ignore the reasons for our being God’s “workmanship”, who ignore why we are “created in Christ Jesus for good works” and why we are to “walk” in them, miss a most important part of Paul’s message. Notice how Paul’s relationship of obedience and works related to salvation to God’s work within us, which enables us to accomplish His purpose in us. “Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” Philippians 2:12-13.
Certainly forgiveness and salvation are gifts from God and they cannot be earned. As humans we possess nothing of sufficient value to pay for the forgiveness of our sins and our salvation and never will. Yet Jesus bluntly tells us that “unless you repent you will all likewise perish” Luke 13:3, 5. Through repentance we do not earn salvation, but repentance is a prerequisite for salvation. Repentance is simply turning away from sin, forsaking lawless behaviour (1 John 3:4). We can’t receive the Holy Spirit and be converted unless we are willing to repent and live as law abiding Christians (Acts 2:3.
Faith is another prerequisite for salvation. We read that “without faith it is impossible to please Him” Hebrews 11:6. We must be “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood...” Romans 3:24-25 But simply because faith is required by God doesn’t mean we earn salvation by having faith. Neither do we earn salvation through works. But, as the many scriptures quoted in this document show, God clearly expects faith and obedience in those to whom He will extend the gift of salvation and eternal life.
Those who oppose obedience to God’s laws choose to emphasize certain statements Paul makes and totally ignore others that clarify his intent. Paul’s discussion of faith and works in Romans 3 is one such passage. In verse 28 we read, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.” Paul is talking about justification: Christ’s death covering our previous transgressions. Paul is showing that we could never earn forgiveness. But that has nothing to do with the way we are supposed to live. It has no bearing whatsoever on the importance of God’s law as the guide to our behaviour. Paul is talking only about how “sins that were previously committed” can be “passed over” (verse 25) so we can get on with our lives as obedient servants of God. To make sure we understand this, Paul says in verse 31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”
Paul wants us to understand that he is not even hinting that Gods 10 Commandments were voided or abolished. On the contrary, without the law we would have no way of understanding what sin is or is not because “by the law is the knowledge of sin” (verse 20). Remember, for sin to exist there has to be law because “sin is lawlessness” 1 John 3:4. Therefore, Paul is saying that the concept of God’s “grace” or forgiveness establishes that His law is still in effect and that sin is breaking that law. God’s grace through faith requires a law that defines the sins that are to be forgiven. So repeating Paul, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.” -
Natural branches<> wild branchesOriginally posted by breytonhartge:Rom 11:17-21
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Romans 11:25-27
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
Becareful that you do not get arrogant, if christians are truly a separate chosen people, than why do you need to be grafted into the true vine? If you are grafted means you become part of and are by no means separate.
The natural branches can grow back, but if the grafted branches are cut off, then that is it. They lose their sustenence. -
NT commandsOriginally posted by breytonhartge:You say you are under law to Yeshua. Then this begs the question, what law did Yeshua teach?
To which from your previous post, you will under the law of grace. So then define the law of grace to me.
If you believe it, study it and apply it are you not already obeying the law? -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Jamison
A few qestions for you.
What is the mind of Yeshua?
But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one. "For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him?" But we have Christ's mind.
What do you mean by being under the commandment of grace?
To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; TO THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW (OF MOSES), as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law; to those who are without (THE) law (GENTILES), as without law (not being without law toward God, BUT UNDER LAW TOWARD CHRIST, that I might win those who are without law.
Is obeying the law being under the law?
you cannot pick and choose the law is a unit. Obey one you are to obey all. Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.Gal.5:3 Nine out of the 10 commandments were included in the New Covenant of Grace commands of Christ.
What are the commands of the grace of Yahweh?
NT commands
So what are the laws of the new covenant?
NT commands
You say in your post quoting this:
As Marquee Mathup said: just as Christians died to sin, Christians died to the law. Christians have nothing to do with sin. They died to it. The same with the Law. Christians died to it. they have nothing to do with it. We live not by the Law but by faith in the Son of God inside us to whom we died with.
So by this statement you mean that if christians have died to sin and that they have nothing to do with it, so you say that by interpretation that it is impossible for all christians to sin since christians have nothing to do with it?
Here address that to Paul: Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6:11)
For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace. (Rom. 6:14)
it does not teach perfect sinlessness.
You mention till all have been fulfilled, have all been fulfilled? How many prophecies remain in the bible unfulfilled? Has Yeshua fulfilled all the feasts of Yahweh yet? If not then the law still remains.
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE MORAL PRECEPTS OF THE LAW
Mt 5:17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.
19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. -
Grace, Faith and the Law
Paul taught that salvation is a gift from God by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:. The Greek word for “grace” is charis, meaning a gift or favour. In the New Testament it can refer either to God’s gift of mercy or to His gracious favour. Paul makes it clear throughout his writings that God’s grace leading to salvation is “not of works, lest anyone should boast” (verse 9). But Paul’s overall perspective toward Christian works is generally ignored by opponents of obedience to God’s law.
Antinomianist are against the Law. Christians are not against the Law even though they are under grace. It does not mean we should be lawless if we are not under law. As one forumer here who is my friend said: We are not under Law but that does not mean we are lawless, we are married to a higher "law" Christ.
Can we bear fruit under the law?
The Great Fact
Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ,
The Link Up
that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead,
The Purpose
that we might bring forth fruit to God. Romans 7:4
What's the purpose that we died to the Law (of Moses) and joined to Jesus (Grace)? that we might bring forth fruit to God.
Is it so that we can sin more? No. that we might bring forth fruit to God.
Look at Paul’s perspective in the next verse. “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them” (verse 10). Those who ignore the reasons for our being God’s “workmanship”, who ignore why we are “created in Christ Jesus for good works” and why we are to “walk” in them, miss a most important part of Paul’s message.
Yeah, that is true. They turned the grace of God into licentiousness.
Notice how Paul’s relationship of obedience and works related to salvation to God’s work within us, which enables us to accomplish His purpose in us. “Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” Philippians 2:12-13.
Yeah, its really amazing how grace works isn't it? we could never do that under law. Here's a parallel verse: "But by the grace of God I am what I am. His grace which was bestowed on me was not futile, but I worked more than all of them; yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." (1 Cor. 15:10)
Certainly forgiveness and salvation are gifts from God and they cannot be earned. As humans we possess nothing of sufficient value to pay for the forgiveness of our sins and our salvation and never will. Yet Jesus bluntly tells us that “unless you repent you will all likewise perish” Luke 13:3, 5. Through repentance we do not earn salvation, but repentance is a prerequisite for salvation. Repentance is simply turning away from sin, forsaking lawless behaviour (1 John 3:4). We can’t receive the Holy Spirit and be converted unless we are willing to repent and live as law abiding Christians (Acts 2:3.
yes. repentance is needed.
Faith is another prerequisite for salvation. We read that “without faith it is impossible to please Him” Hebrews 11:6. We must be “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood...” Romans 3:24-25 But simply because faith is required by God doesn’t mean we earn salvation by having faith.
Yes. faith is not counted by God as works: But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. Rom. 4:5
Neither do we earn salvation through works. But, as the many scriptures quoted in this document show, God clearly expects faith and obedience in those to whom He will extend the gift of salvation and eternal life.
Those who oppose obedience to GodÂ’s laws choose to emphasize certain statements Paul makes and totally ignore others that clarify his intent.
Yes, antiLaw cults do it. grace is a sphere of life that makes us more like Christ. "For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,
training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world," (Tit. 2:11-12) What the Law cannot do. Grace will do the work. Some who do not understand Grace get jittery and nervous when he hears the believer is not under law but under grace. He would ask: "What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" (Romans 6:15) Paul then explains grace. That grace made us dead to sin Rom 6. Grace made us dead to the law Rom. 7 (which is the strength of sin). Grace (Holy Spirit in us) enables us to fulfill the righteousness of the law. Rom. 8
The Law never made us dead to sin. It never made us alive. It killed us like it killed Paul. Law only aroused the sin nature in us. Law is for the unsaved man (1 Tim 1:8-10). Again as my friend here in this forum said: We cannot live the Christ life. Only Christ can live His life. But God demands from us righteousness (Christlikenss which is what the law demands). But how to do it we are encapable. But what if Christ will live inside you. What if you let Him live His life in you? What if you walk in the Spirit? Can you bear fruit love and holiness and righteousness? Yes. If Christ is living and manifesting His life in you, do you need the law? Does Christ need it? No. With or without the Law Christ will always be Himself---righteous. Ga 5:18 "But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law." The Law is for wicked people. What if you let Christ live His life in you. does Christ need to be told :thou shalt not murder...Thou shalt not steal........and etc? No. Therefore :....if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law."
Paul’s discussion of faith and works in Romans 3 is one such passage. In verse 28 we read, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.” Paul is talking about justification: Christ’s death covering our previous transgressions. Paul is showing that we could never earn forgiveness. But that has nothing to do with the way we are supposed to live. It has no bearing whatsoever on the importance of God’s law as the guide to our behaviour. Paul is talking only about how “sins that were previously committed” can be “passed over” (verse 25) so we can get on with our lives as obedient servants of God. To make sure we understand this, Paul says in verse 31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”
Yes, by faith in Christ we establish the Laws purpose. We do not nulify it. The Law was to make us aware of our sinfulness and need of salvation. A person who places his faith in Jesus as Savior has established the law's purpose. He has 'allowed' the Law to tutor him to Christ.
"But before faith came, we were kept in prison under the law, waiting for the revelation of the faith which was to come.So the law has been a servant to take us to Christ, so that we might have righteousness by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a servant. Because you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:23-25
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who has faith. Ro 10:4
Paul wants us to understand that he is not even hinting that Gods 10 Commandments were voided or abolished. On the contrary, without the law we would have no way of understanding what sin is or is not because “by the law is the knowledge of sin” (verse 20).
Yes, the Law as a covenant to Israel was abolished. But its convicting ministry goes on.
Remember, for sin to exist there has to be law because “sin is lawlessness” 1 John 3:4.
Yes, Sin existed even before the Law was given:
" For this reason, as through one man sin came into the world, and death because of sin, and so death came to all men, because all have done evil:
Because, TILL THE LAW CAME, sin was in existence, but sin is not put to the account of anyone when there is no law to be broken." Ro 5:12-13
THE Law came at Sinai. It never existed before Sinai. What was the rule of life before Sinai?
Here i quote someone:
The Bible clearly teaches in many places that a Christian is not under the law of Moses. Those who insist that we are under the law of Moses mistakenly claim that without the law of Moses you give a licenses to sin. What they donÂ’t realize is that just because Christians are not under the law of Moses doesnÂ’t mean they are without divine law. Think about it for a moment, people from Adam to Moses were without the law of Moses, yet God gave them commands to follow as previously shown above. Some of the laws given to those from Adam to Moses were similar to those given in the Mosaic law, such as murder. Yet others were complete opposites such as the eating of clean and unclean animals. There were two different laws to govern two different groups of people. The same is true today, Christians are not under the law of Moses, they are under the law of Christ which is love. Therefore the divine law for Christians is the law of love. If we love God as we should then we would never sin against Him. If we love our neighbors and enemies as we should then we would never sin against them. The law of love is far superior to the law of Moses. The law of Moses was an external list of 613 doÂ’s and donÂ’t which one could be forced to follow to a certain degree even if their heart was not in it. On the other hand the law of love covers every conceivable sin one can commit and those who obey do so from the heart because true love comes from the heart. This is why love is the greatest law and fulfills the law and the prophets. Christians do not commit murder, adultery, lies etc. because it is against the law of love, not because it is a violation of the Mosaic law. We obey righteousness because we are under the law of Christ, not as incorrectly claimed by some that we are under the law of Moses.
Therefore, Paul is saying that the concept of God’s “grace” or forgiveness establishes that His law is still in effect and that sin is breaking that law. God’s grace through faith requires a law that defines the sins that are to be forgiven. So repeating Paul, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”
see above for the answer. -
which are? state them.Originally posted by Jamison:NT commands -
so then you agree that there is not perfect sinlessness, so what then convicts you of the sin that remains?Originally posted by Jamison:
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE MORAL PRECEPTS OF THE LAW
Mt 5:17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.
19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. -
Originally posted by Jamison:
What then is your definition of the mind of Yeshua? What does this statement mean to you? Don't just quote verses without substantiating them. This is very easy to do and a cop out again. You still have not answered the question.
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What is the mind of Yeshua?
But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one. "For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him?" But we have Christ's mind.
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Here is something that will begin this...
[b]Ten Commandments and the Ceremonial law
What is the relationship between these two laws and how did they sustain each other? If a man sinned, he broke LAW No. 1, the moral law of the Ten Commandments. Then he brought his offering, according to LAW No. 2, the law of sacrifices, and he received forgiveness. Here the two laws were brought into right relation. LAW No. 1 defines sin, for sin is the transgression of the moral law, the Ten Commandments. 1 John 3:4 LAW No. 2 defined sacrifices, the ceremonial law which was the remedy for sin. When the Israelite sinned, he broke the first law. To secure forgiveness he had to obey the second law. So here are two very distinct laws of which this fact cannot be overlooked. Christ became that One and perfect final sacrifice for us when He cried out “It is finished” and bowed His head and died. See Hebrews 10:8-10
Where in the Law of Moses where the Law is compartmentalized into: the Moral Law and the Ceremonial Law? When Moses says Law, he meas all of it: 613 of them. Ga 5:3 Yes, I give witness again to every man who undergoes circumcision, that he will have to keep all the law. obey one tiny part of it, you must obey all of them
Moral Law (Ten Commandments)
1. Spoken by God Himself. Exodus 20:1,22.
2. Was written by God. Exodus 31:18; Exodus 32:16.
3. On stones. Exodus 31:18.
4. Handed by God its writer, to Moses. Exodus 31:18.
5. Deposited by Moses “in the ark”. Deuteronomy 10:5.
6. Deals with moral precepts. Exodus 20:3-17.
7. Reveals sin. Romans 7:7.
8. Breaking of “the law” is “sin”. 1 John 3:4.
9. Should “keep the whole law”. James 2:10.
Where in James 2:10 is it said that we should keep the whole Law of Moses? Can you read it again? Is it stated as a command? Am i now against the Law of Moses? No. nine out of the 10 commandments are reiterated in the New TEstament as part of the commands of grace, commands that every Christian should keep.
10. Because we “shall be judged” by this law. James 2:12
No. it says there the Law of Liberty. What law is that? Does it mean the Law of Moses? Where does it say that the Law of Moses is the Law of Liberty in the entire New Testament? [color=blue]Everywhere you read it is described as the Law of bondage. Will this not give you a hint of a law other than the Law of Moses in Sinai?[/color]
11. The Christian who keeps this law is “blessed in his deed”. James 1:25.
Oh no!!!!!! Is that what James 1:25 said? Jas 1:25 But he who goes on looking into the true law which makes him free, being not a hearer without memory but a doer putting it into effect, this man will have a blessing on his acts. When one reads "law" in the New Testament does it always mean the Law of Moses?
12. “The perfect law of liberty”. James 1:25 (Cf. James 2:12).
**** Jamison sits in an easy chair**** "Ah!!! Law of Liberty. Those grace commands, they are so liberating."
13. Paul said, “I delight in the law of God”. Romans 7:22 (Cf. verse 7).
Does "law" always refer to the Law of Moses? Ro 7:22 In my heart I take pleasure in the LAW of God, 23 But I see another LAW in my body, working against the LAW of my mind, and making me the servant of the LAW of sin which is in my flesh.
Does it mean: " In my heart i take pleasure in the LAW OF MOSES OF GOD, but I see another LAW OF MOSES in my body, working against the LAW OF MOSES in my body, working against the LAW OF MOSES Lin my mind, and making me the servant of the LAW OF MOSES of sin which is in my flesh?
14. Established by faith in Christ. Romans 3:31.
15. Christ was to “magnify the law and make it honorable”. Isaiah 42:21.
He has exalted the Law he fulfilled it and gave it to whom who places his trust on Him as Savior.
16. Eternal? Yes. Psalm 111:7-8, Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17
17. Good? Yes. Romans 7:12
agree
18. Points out sin. 1 John 3:4
19. Obey Now? Yes. Matthew 5:19
obey God's law yes. Christians should obey the Law of Liberty.
20. Perfect? Yes. James 1:25, Psalm 19:7.
21. Liberty? (freedom) Yes. James 2:11-12
22. GodÂ’s Sabbath. Began at creation. Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11
23. GodÂ’s Sabbath. Before sin. Genesis 2:1-3
Did God command it as a Law before Moses? How about when the Israelites travelled from Egypt to Sinai? Did they ever keep the Sabbath? Is Sabbath a moral Law? or a shadow of the coming true Sabbath?
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Col. 2:16-17
Somebody judges my spirituality because i do not keep Jewish festivals or new moon feast or regarding the keeping of the Sabbath. I go to Paul and Paul says: Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, Why Paul? 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. All those festivals, Sabbaths and new moon feast are symbols of Christ. Jesus is my Sabbath my food and drink, my all
Ceremonial Law (temporary Jewish law)
Who said so? Who gave you the right to divide the indivisible Law of Moses? Ga 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law Isn't it the reason why the Judaizers got irked by Paul? Paul said we are now in grace because of the spirit of Christ in us. We are not under Law (what you call Moral and Ceremonial Law) but under grace.
The Judaizer who understood it (because the Law was indivisible and therefore it would include the 10 commandments) said: Ro 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
1. Spoken by Moses. Exodus 24:3.
2. Written by Moses. Exodus 24:4; Deuteronomy 31:9.
3. In a book. Exodus 24:3, 7; Deuteronomy 31:24.
4. Handed by Moses, its writer to Levites. Deuteronomy 31:25-26.
5. Deposited by the Levites “by the side of the ark”. Deuteronomy 31:26, ARV.
6. Deals with ceremonial, ritual matters. (See parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy).
7. Prescribes offerings for sins. (See book of Leviticus).
8. No sin in breaking, for now “abolished”. Ephesians 2:15. (Where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15.)
9. Apostles gave “no such commandment” to "keep the law". Acts 15:24.
10. Not to be judged by it. Colossians 2:16.
11. The Christian who keeps this law is not blessed. (See for example, Galatians 5:1-6).
12. The Christian who keeps this law loses his liberty. Galatians 5:1,3.
13. Paul called this law a “yoke of bondage”. Galatians 5:1; Galatians 4:3, 9 (See Acts 15:10).
14. Abolished by Christ. Ephesians 2:15.
15. Blotted “out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us”. Colossians 2:14.
16. Eternal? No. Hebrews 7:12, Galatians 3:19, Colossians 2:14
17. Good? No. Colossians 2:14, Galatians 4:9.
18. Points to Jesus. Leviticus 4:27-31
19. Obey Now? No. Colossians 2:14-17, Galatians 4:9-10
20. Perfect? No. Hebrews 7:19
21. Liberty? No. It was bondage. Galatians 4:9, 5:1
Note: Freedom and bondage are exact opposites.
22. Ceremonial Sabbaths. Began after Sinai. Exodus 20:24
23. Ceremonial Sabbaths. After Sin. Leviticus 23:4
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Is this not clear enough? Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Galatians 3:24-25 What Law is he referring to? Was it only the Ceremonial Law that you call that Paul is referring here? The "Ceremonial Law" leads us to the Savior. Or was it only the 10 Commandments that Paul was referring here? Paul elsewhere clearly writes that all of these leads to Christ. The 10 commandments made the Jews aware that they are sinners and that lack righteousness. The "Ceremonial Law" (that you call) made them aware of that they need forgiveness of sins. Are these not the things that Jesus gave sinners? Righteousness and Forgiveness of sins? The Law (all of them) leads to Christ. But after Christ has come in the life of the sinner is he still under it? No. "But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. How then will we serve God? Ro 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.