Three and One?
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if you want to be taught, you will learn...Originally posted by Chin Eng:Please teach me - I shall remain teachable. The question here, is would you?
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CE, you told me to get out of EH, to start my own forum to share with people of like mind...
So my question to you is, if what I post offends you so much, why are you in my forum? You obviously do not like what I post and do not agree with much of it, to you it is trivial and unwarranted and unecessary, a stumbling block... impractical etc... and the list goes on...
you say the bible teaches that the Gentiles are not to learn the customs of the Jews, well and good, but did the bible ever say not to learn the ways of Yahweh? -
works both way, right, but you can begin your teaching by helping me understand the answers to my questions.Originally posted by breytonhartge:if you want to be taught, you will learn...
I never asked you NOT to use Yeshua! Please quote me if I had said so. I am asking you NOT to say that Jesus is the wrong name. These are two entirely different issues - confused as usual.Originally posted by breytonhartge:or what? you are going to sue me? Please! You want me to retract a stand based on what? Like I owe you anything. It is my choice to use Yeshua. I am not going to retract that! You don't like it, you deal with it.
Hello, this is a forum. We all post stuff. Like you are all of a sudden the police? Or have you become the PAP?
That's not what I said, I say you start your own forum - nothing to do with sharing with people of the like mind.... a forum is a forum, completely open, like minded or not.Originally posted by breytonhartge:CE, you told me to get out of EH, to start my own forum to share with people of like mind...
(new additon, just caught this one, Impractical because you have a hypothesis (call it a teaching, or philosophy), that is not practical. I am not even saying that the hypothesis is bad, it is just not workable from the global standpoint. If I am wrong on the practical aspect, please share with me how, an illiterate or uneducated person in China or India comes to know and appreciate the Hebraic concept. did I used trivial, stumbling block or is it your assumptionOriginally posted by breytonhartge:So my question to you is, if what I post offends you so much, why are you in my forum? You obviously do not like what I post and do not agree with much of it, to you it is trivial and unwarranted and unecessary, a stumbling block... impractical etc... and the list goes on...
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The only thing that offends me is the name thing. Everything else is open to interpretation and discussion. Discussion, exchange of ideas, or politically incorrectly speaking - debate. Isn't that what you want.
Practicality? Answer my questions first... of course, you'd argue: "Do I, brey owe you, CE, an explanation? is CE now the police?" This is, of course a very very evasive method of treating a forum. "I am the all-powerful mod and can control information" and nobody should question these information. But is this the right way?
If you cannot take the heat, you should not start a public forum. Do a private one where entry is by approval. Then the like-mindedness will apply. In SGforums, that will never ever happen.
The ways of Yahweh? Sure, what's that: To love the Lord your God with all your hearts and all your mind and all your soul. And to love your neighbour as you love yourself (paraphrased)....Originally posted by breytonhartge:you say the bible teaches that the Gentiles are not to learn the customs of the Jews, well and good, but did the bible ever say not to learn the ways of Yahweh?
Go forth and make disciples of all nations.... Did the Jews do this after the NT period? I ask again, who are the prominent Jewish missionaries who went forth and make disciples of all nations? -
Of course not! Don't be silly! His parents spoke in Hebrew.Originally posted by breytonhartge:And did I make a mistake here? It was never Jesus, it was Yeshua. Did His parents call Him Jesus?
So by that note should we all learn Hebrew? Ideally, yeah, practical, no.
Is your Bible (oops Torah) in Hebrew? Even though you may have one that has Jesus name as Yeshua, did the conversation between Joseph and Mary, Jesus and the disciples in English or Hebrew? Consistency, bro, consistency.... -
So you did not say that it is wrong to use Jesus, but on the same tone, you are also saying that Jesus was never ever was.... go figure! You did say oxymoron beforeOriginally posted by breytonhartge:I did not say it is wrong. If you think it is right according to you, then who am I to argue with you afterall you are the smart one here, who knows what is best. So follow your way do what you want to do.. just don't blame anybody else when you get before Yahweh and He tells you different.
So what is the difference, I did not say using Jesus was wrong so how is that different from it is not wrong to use Jesus?
I told laoda to get past the name calling not the argument. If laoda had continue in a intelligent manner (sorry laodaOriginally posted by breytonhartge:I think you have a deluded mind and keep thinking things and making assumptions that are not even true or there to be made in the first place... I think you have laoda's syndrome.... you tell him that we should be past this, yet, you still keep it up... where is your consistency??? , we did talked about this), I'd not stand in his way. Here's consistency bro. Note that I have never called you names (at least none that I can recall) (oh no, I stand corrected, I USED your name)
You know, you seem to like to drag others huh.... PAP, laoda etc etc. and all I want are some simple answers to some very simple questions.
I wish to state clearly to all concerned, that
I, Chin Eng, is NOT against anyone using Yeshua, or Yehovah, or whatever Hebrew names of God or Jesus. All I am asking is: recognise the fact that because the gospel is translated to many languages, the name of God or Jesus may take on a local accent/slang. When it does, it will not take away the identity of God or Jesus because God or Jesus is universal as all nations are to be reached! To say that Jesus was never ever correct because His parents did not call Him Jesus is to invalidate the salvation of all who has accepted God through the name of Jesus because it is through the name of Jesus Christ we are save. Anyone saying that Yeshua (or other Hebrew equivalent) is the only way to address God better be prepared to state that the salvation of all those calling the name of Jesus Christ did not happen. -
Have you ever heard of Messianic Jews?Originally posted by Chin Eng:The ways of Yahweh? Sure, what's that: To love the Lord your God with all your hearts and all your mind and all your soul. And to love your neighbour as you love yourself (paraphrased)....
Go forth and make disciples of all nations.... Did the Jews do this after the NT period? I ask again, who are the prominent Jewish missionaries who went forth and make disciples of all nations?
On the ways of Yahweh, how do you know how to love the Lord thy God with all your heart minds and strength? And how do you know what it is to love thy neighbour as thyself? Yeshua said, if you love me keep my commandments as I have kept MY FATHER'S commandments. Which of His fathers commandments do you think He meant?
So the cycle continues, if you say you follow the ways of Yahweh, yet choose to keep a different sabbath, choose to celebrate feasts like chirstmas and easter, are you really keeping HIS ways? From my understanding that Yahweh is a jealous God and will not share His glory with another, how then do you think that He will condone sharing His birth and ressurection with days which are taken from paganism? It is the subtle naunces that ha sa tan will try and pervert the church, you say it is harmless, it means nothing, but how do you know that it does not grieve Yahweh? If you know His Character, you will know that it is unacceptable to Him.
Ask yourself a simple question. Should those who claim to be Christian take the Bible seriously? In Jeremiah 10:2, Yahweh declared to His people through the pen of the prophet: "Do not learn the way of the Gentiles." He went on to state that "the customs of the peoples are futile," that is, they are utterly empty and useless. God wants His people to follow His instructions, not to look at pagan practices and seek to copy them. What kind of empty, pagan customs was Jeremiah talking about in Jeremiah 10? The specific example in that chapter involved going out into the woods, cutting a tree and bringing it home to set it upright and decorate it (vv. 3–4). Does this sound amazingly like putting up a Christmas tree? -
man.. sorry brey, my mouth itchy
but, do your wear a cross? My friend doing his MAster's in theology told me that it has Pagan roots
then how?
I wear my Crucufix proudly not b'coz it has pagan roots but because it is a reminder of how my saviour died for me
cheers! -
actually no, you are the one that is confused, you asked me to retract my stance on using Yeshua and saying that Jesus is wrong.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I never asked you NOT to use Yeshua! Please quote me if I had said so. I am asking you NOT to say that Jesus is the wrong name. These are two entirely different issues - confused as usual.
Firstly, I did not say that using Jesus is wrong. So there is nothing to retract.
But in saying that using Jesus is not wrong, does that mean that there is meaning to the name Jesus except that it is a transliteration of a transliteration? No, Jesus as a name has not meaning.
But Jesus is an english name which is a term used by Christians to refer to Yeshua. I never said this was wrong either, so there is nothing to retract.
When young believers and non-believers in the faith start out, they call upon the name of Jesus, like I said so did I, but if you continue to grow in the faith, you will continue to learn more, and certain things will mean more to you than when you first started, when I started my walk with Yeshua, I called on the name of Jesus, but now that I am older, I know His real name, Yeshua, which means saviour, so I choose to use Yeshua because it has meaning.
Learning that Jesus is a transliteration of a transliteration, somehow makes the name twice removed from what it originally was, but I am sure that you can still call upon Jesus. Like I said it is a term used by Christians to refer to Yeshua. So I do not think you need to worry about your salvation, you are saved, but it does not mean that you don't have to grow.
Shalom! -
Originally posted by ben1xy:man.. sorry brey, my mouth itchy
but, do your wear a cross? My friend doing his MAster's in theology told me that it has Pagan roots
then how?
I wear my Crucufix proudly not b'coz it has pagan roots but because it is a reminder of how my saviour died for me
cheers! don't anyhow assume he wears a cross. I am very sure he does not wear a cross. actually neither do I. -
And how do you know that this hypothesis is not workable from a global standpoint? Just because it seems impossible to you does not mean that it is impossible with Yahweh. Yahweh can help these people appreciate the hebraic concept very easily and if they are seeking, He will show it to them. Or do you doubt Yahweh?Originally posted by Chin Eng:new additon, just caught this one, Impractical because you have a hypothesis (call it a teaching, or philosophy), that is not practical. I am not even saying that the hypothesis is bad, it is just not workable from the global standpoint. If I am wrong on the practical aspect, please share with me how, an illiterate or uneducated person in China or India comes to know and appreciate the Hebraic concept. did I used trivial, stumbling block or is it your assumption )
The only thing that offends me is the name thing. Everything else is open to interpretation and discussion. Discussion, exchange of ideas, or politically incorrectly speaking - debate. Isn't that what you want.
Practicality? Answer my questions first... of course, you'd argue: "Do I, brey owe you, CE, an explanation? is CE now the police?" This is, of course a very very evasive method of treating a forum. "I am the all-powerful mod and can control information" and nobody should question these information. But is this the right way?
Why should the name thing offend you so much? I already said it is not wrong to use Jesus, but Yeshua is the more meaningful name. So then the ultimate choice is still left up to the individual so why are you so offended? Like I said if you don't like it you deal with it. I see no issue here, only you do.
Question the information all you want, but the thing still remains, Jesus is a transliteration twice removed, and Yeshua is His real name in Hebrew. So if you want to use a term coined by the gentile Christians to call upon Yeshua, then do so. I choose to use the name of my saviour that is more meaningful to me.
Side topic: Greeks use chirstos or christ to refer to any one who is anointed or can be a god, so to term this with Yeshua is to cheapen His name in my opinion, this makes Yeshua on par with the myraid of other anointed beings or gods out there and this is just simply not the case. He is so MUCH MORE THAN THAT!!!! -
So in order to grow, we need to change from Jesus to Yeshua? Says who!
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No ben, I do not wear a cross, i know it has pagan roots and do not wear one. CE's scarcism aside, it all boils down to how Yahweh convicts you.Originally posted by ben1xy:man.. sorry brey, my mouth itchy
but, do your wear a cross? My friend doing his MAster's in theology told me that it has Pagan roots
then how?
I wear my Crucufix proudly not b'coz it has pagan roots but because it is a reminder of how my saviour died for me
cheers!
Shalom! -
Like I said before, you still have the choice to choose.Originally posted by Chin Eng:So in order to grow, we need to change from Jesus to Yeshua? Says who! -
Originally posted by Chin Eng: don't anyhow assume he wears a cross. I am very sure he does not wear a cross. actually neither do I.
hmm... CE .. how abt in your house or anywhere? no crosses too? so intruiging! -
hahaa. ok ok. i'm going to pop over to Uni now... today got to teach ... haizOriginally posted by breytonhartge:No ben, I do not wear a cross, i know it has pagan roots and do not wear one. CE's scarcism aside, it all boils down to how Yahweh convicts you.
Shalom!
catch u all tonight! -
Has this been an ongoing project? Not that I noticed... Maybe we should discuss this in twenty years time? seeing that nothing much was done from the Hebraic standpoint globally. Of course, if God wanted to do something about it, sure he can..... but seeing that in the past thousand years or so, something else has taken place, then we can either assume that God is in control of this something else as well, or are you prepared to state that God didn't do anything?Originally posted by breytonhartge:And how do you know that this hypothesis is not workable from a global standpoint? Just because it seems impossible to you does not mean that it is impossible with Yahweh. Yahweh can help these people appreciate the hebraic concept very easily and if they are seeking, He will show it to them. Or do you doubt Yahweh?
Ok lah... I will back down on this one. But you saw issues with it when you said Jesus was never ever....Originally posted by breytonhartge:Why should the name thing offend you so much? I already said it is not wrong to use Jesus, but Yeshua is the more meaningful name. So then the ultimate choice is still left up to the individual so why are you so offended? Like I said if you don't like it you deal with it. I see no issue here, only you do.
So when you look at the cross (borrowing from ben), do you see the suffering of Jesus or do you see a Roman symbol of torture (which is what it really is).Originally posted by breytonhartge:Question the information all you want, but the thing still remains, Jesus is a transliteration twice removed, and Yeshua is His real name in Hebrew. So if you want to use a term coined by the gentile Christians to call upon Yeshua, then do so. I choose to use the name of my saviour that is more meaningful to me.
Side topic: Greeks use chirstos or christ to refer to any one who is anointed or can be a god, so to term this with Yeshua is to cheapen His name in my opinion, this makes Yeshua on par with the myraid of other anointed beings or gods out there and this is just simply not the case. He is so MUCH MORE THAN THAT!!!!
Err... when I last check, I don't recognise the myriad of anointed beings or gods out there.... you are telling me they exists? If they don't exist, my Christ means only one thing! How can you compare something that we recognised as the Supreme Being to other stuffs that does not exist? If, in your opinion, the word Christ also represents other deities, I am quite concern with what you see as anointed beings....
... regarding my other questions, don't know say don't know! -
Why the need to choose, if both names mean the same person, and Bible did not say it's a KPI in one's spiritual life.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Like I said before, you still have the choice to choose.
What! Today I use Yeshua, my Health Point go up by 200 pts hah? -
One small wooden cross.Originally posted by ben1xy:
hmm... CE .. how abt in your house or anywhere? no crosses too? so intruiging!
Reason is not because of whatever paganistic roots that may be present. Not in the habit of adorning myself with anything, both my wife and I do not even have our wedding rings. We took them out the day after our wedding. Not important. I have no rings, no necklace, no earring, no nosering whatever.
The empty wooden cross at home is not to ward off evil (don't believe in that kind of crap), but a reminder to the whole family of who we are. -
if you wanna back down back down already otherwise... we can go round the mountain again...Originally posted by Chin Eng:Why the need to choose, if both names mean the same person, and is not a KPI in one's spiritual life.
What! Today I use Yeshua, my Health Point go up by 200 pts hah? -
Like I'd said, why the need to choose?Originally posted by breytonhartge:if you wanna back down back down already otherwise... we can go round the mountain again... does it mean that if I don't use Yeshua I am not spiritually stronger or have a deeper understanding? -
You miss the point, what I am saying is that because the greeks use christ to refer to anything that is anointed or is a god, and they subsequently use the term to describe Yeshua, I think it cheapens His name. If you don't see the issue here, then like I said there is nothing else to discuss. I see it as cheapening Yeshua's name. Anointed beings obviously like other gods and pagan idols.Originally posted by Chin Eng:So when you look at the cross (borrowing from ben), do you see the suffering of Jesus or do you see a Roman symbol of torture (which is what it really is).
Err... when I last check, I don't recognise the myriad of anointed beings or gods out there.... you are telling me they exists? If they don't exist, my Christ means only one thing! How can you compare something that we recognised as the Supreme Being to other stuffs that does not exist? If, in your opinion, the word Christ also represents other deities, I am quite concern with what you see as anointed beings....
... regarding my other questions, don't know say don't know!
These things or gods may not exist to you but to the greeks then, they worshipped a whole lot of other gods, zeus, apollo, etc to name a few.
Also just becuase you don't recognise other gods, does not mean that other people do not. I don't as well, but ther are many out there who do...
Shalom! -
If you had the understanding of this minute technicality, you would understand that Yeshua carries so much more meaning, but obviously you don't so it still boils down to you have an issue, I don't if you want to back down, just let it drop, otherwise like I said, we can go round the mountain again...Originally posted by Chin Eng:Like I'd said, why the need to choose? does it mean that if I don't use Yeshua I am not spiritually stronger or have a deeper understanding? -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:You miss the point, what I am saying is that because the greeks use christ to refer to anything that is anointed or is a god, and they subsequently use the term to describe Yeshua, I think it cheapens His name. If you don't see the issue here, then like I said there is nothing else to discuss. I see it as cheapening Yeshua's name. Anointed beings obviously like other gods and pagan idols.
These things or gods may not exist to you but to the greeks then, they worshipped a whole lot of other gods, zeus, apollo, etc to name a few.
Shalom! so how many greeks do we come across on a daily basis that warrant this opinion? that if we use Christ, we will stumble them (for the record, first time I am using the world stumble in this forum). Maybe downunder got lots of greek...
blind test - go out in the street and ask people (greeks included) as to who they think Jesus Christ, and see what answer you get.
again, I am not against you using Yeshua, just that all your rationales for NOT using Jesus Christ is illogical. -
Actually if you had bothered to look, the hebraic roots movement began a long time ago. There are many hebraic roots churches out there you just have to type it in to google and you will find a myraid of sites. Like I said it is nothing new. And again how do you know Yahweh is not doing something about it?Originally posted by Chin Eng:Has this been an ongoing project? Not that I noticed... Maybe we should discuss this in twenty years time? seeing that nothing much was done from the Hebraic standpoint globally. Of course, if God wanted to do something about it, sure he can..... but seeing that in the past thousand years or so, something else has taken place, then we can either assume that God is in control of this something else as well, or are you prepared to state that God didn't do anything? -
illogical to you maybe, but at the same time logical to many other people, just because you do not understand it does not make it illogical.Originally posted by Chin Eng: so how many greeks do we come across on a daily basis that warrant this opinion? that if we use Christ, we will stumble them (for the record, first time I am using the world stumble in this forum). Maybe downunder got lots of greek...
blind test - go out in the street and ask people (greeks included) as to who they think Jesus Christ, and see what answer you get.
again, I am not against you using Yeshua, just that all your rationales for NOT using Jesus Christ is illogical.