Three and One?
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I did, and I've found that most of this are in the United States (or western countries) ..... which also houses lots of militia Christians, super fundamentalist Christians, etc.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Actually if you had bothered to look, the hebraic roots movement began a long time ago. There are many hebraic roots churches out there you just have to type it in to google and you will find a myraid of sites. Like I said it is nothing new. And again how do you know Yahweh is not doing something about it?
Oh no, I am not discounting the fact that it might happen. With God anything can happen. But on the same note, there are many well-meaning folks who are driven (may not even be God-driven) to do things too. -
and just as many house non-militia christians, and are peace loving.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I did, and I've found that most of this are in the United States (or western countries) ..... which also houses lots of militia Christians, super fundamentalist Christians, etc.
Oh no, I am not discounting the fact that it might happen. With God anything can happen. But on the same note, there are many well-meaning folks who are driven (may not even be God-driven) to do things too.
Shalom! -
hahaa. this is going to go on forever.Originally posted by breytonhartge:and just as many house non-militia christians, and are peace loving.
Shalom! -
i sincerely hope not...Originally posted by ben1xy:hahaa. this is going to go on forever.
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Shabbat Shalom!Originally posted by Chin Eng:Teachable - good word!
On the flip side, not all things and traditions are wrong and unscriptural.
Note that I have never ever said that views held by yourself and Brey are wrong. I am saying that based on these views, it opens up a lot of questions that remained unanswered.
Some of which are:
If the name of Jesus Christ is incorrectly used, does it mean that people who claim salvation on the name of Jesus Christ did not receive salvation? That being the case, did people, brey included, need to receive salvation a second time, this time with the name of Yeshua? If these same people, brey included, accepted salvation through Jesus Christ and this salvation is valid, then what's the issue with the name? If the gospel, spread by Roman-influenced Christians, in the early days of the church is in error, does it mean that all the churches built all over the world had been wrong all along? That being the case, how has the gospel been spread all over the world, and by whom? If people are suppose to be able to find the truth only by looking in the scripture, why the need to for missionaries to go forth? Or why the need to correct these "mistakes"?
I am not trying to be funny, I am trying to be practical, based on the information that you have provided. I am very very sure that you or brey can provide the answers for my questions.
Please teach me - I shall remain teachable. The question here, is would you?
You asked in a previous post about English translations of the New Testament which are more true Hebraically, using original names of people including Yeshua: HRV, Jewish New Testament, Complete Jewish Bible, ISR, just for example, there are more.
Rome is European, not Mediterranean. Only a few cities in Italy are on the Mediterranean coast and considered Mediterranean.
There are many issues involved in why there are so many errors in today's church system and the answers are very lengthy and intertwined with other issues and prophecies as well.
In a nutshell, our accountability is to YHVH, and we have to first answer for our own beliefs and actions.
Corruptions occured because as was apparent, the Roman empire was the ruling power even during the time of Yeshua and for many centuries after that. The Roman Catholic church is still a religious and political power even today. It would seem that they were more interested in power than worshipping God, so obviously, they managed to manipulate everything to their advantage and caused a lot of errors and fallacies to enter the church system.
That is why we the Protestant church broke away as they saw some of the errors, but were still not completely free of the grip and the indoctrination was deep and would take generations of people to dig up more and more errors.
For example, today, there are many more people round the world who now understand the truth about Christmas and Easter and the feasts of the Lord than there were decades ago.
It is certainly not the fault of new converts if they come to the the Father through the name Jesus Christ, it was what was preached to them. However, as we progress on, we should desire to learn more and more and go deeper in Him to come to perfection in His sight.
Missionaries preached according to their own understanding of God and His Word at a given time, and since the Bible says to preach the gospel, they have done so in good faith (hopefully!) and to the best of their ability at that time. Their main aim is usually the salvation of souls, not their growth and progress in the Lord. Once someone is saved, it is then up to the individual to continue seeking the Lord and to grow in Him. Therein lies the duty of the church, to help the individual draw close to YHVH.
So if the motives of the church were misplaced, then the individual would be led astray. Those who hunger and desire for the truth will find it, that is why there are so many sects and cults and denominations, everyone wants to know the real truth. That is how many errors of the church have been found out and we are now trying to rectify the erroneous beliefs that have existed for so long in the church system.
Thus, those who only ever hear Jesus preached as Jesus and not Yeshua, if they have truly repented and changed their ways to God's ways as described in the Bible, they will have salvation. However, they would have missed out on a whole lot by not going back to understanding who Yeshua really was on earth and how He lived His life and putting the entire Bible into ints rightful context. Salvation is one thing, growing in the Lord is yet another.
Names are very important to God. For example, when Avram (Abram) was brought to a new level with the Lord, He changed his name to Avraham (Abraham), instead of meaning strong father to father of many. Sarai to Sarah, Yacov (Jacob) to Israel, Saul to Paul...
If Jesus were preached by His real Name, Yeshua, they would probably preach and teach that His name means salvation or saviour. Jesus in itself has no meaning as it is simply a poor transliteration of his Hebrew name. He would probably be preached in true context as well. Through anti-semitism, much or all of His Jewishness has been obliterated.
We are all learning, and the Lord reveals something to everyone. That is why He asks us to be humble and to submit to one another, so we can edify one another. Not sure if I answered all your questions... too many and too long... -
Oh! I forgot about the "prominent" Jewish missionaries... if not for all the first century missionaries mentioned in the Bible, there would be no followers of Yeshua today, and if all the disciples and Paul and all the many, many others mentioned in the Bible after them are not prominent, then who is? I think they are the most important ones because they were faithful to spread the gospel in the beginning. Too bad the Romans were so threatened by them...
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sorry brey, we agreed to stop, but I am responding to Yaffa.
Yup, and they are all the Jewish version of the Bible (English edition nonetheless). Not surprised..... It's like if you ask, where is "Ye2 He2 Hua2" use, and I quoted all the Chinese Bible.....Originally posted by Yaffa:You asked in a previous post about English translations of the New Testament which are more true Hebraically, using original names of people including Yeshua: HRV, Jewish New Testament, Complete Jewish Bible, ISR, just for example, there are more.
Ok, we are splitting hairs here, I was referring to the Mediterranean Sea, and Italy is in the Mediterranean Sea. Nonetheless, it's still around the same general region.Originally posted by Yaffa:Rome is European, not Mediterranean. Only a few cities in Italy are on the Mediterranean coast and considered Mediterranean.
I never said the church is 100% right. I also don't believe that the Hebrew people were 100% right. If you say that the Protestant church broke away because of the errors and on the same note, the Hebraic roots are developing too, why don't you give benefit of doubt that the Protestant churches is working it out, base on continual wisdom given by our Lord, instead of condemning all of being wrong. BTW, I am not RC.Originally posted by Yaffa:There are many issues involved in why there are so many errors in today's church system and the answers are very lengthy and intertwined with other issues and prophecies as well.
In a nutshell, our accountability is to YHVH, and we have to first answer for our own beliefs and actions.
Corruptions occured because as was apparent, the Roman empire was the ruling power even during the time of Yeshua and for many centuries after that. The Roman Catholic church is still a religious and political power even today. It would seem that they were more interested in power than worshipping God, so obviously, they managed to manipulate everything to their advantage and caused a lot of errors and fallacies to enter the church system.
That is why we the Protestant church broke away as they saw some of the errors, but were still not completely free of the grip and the indoctrination was deep and would take generations of people to dig up more and more errors.
For example, today, there are many more people round the world who now understand the truth about Christmas and Easter and the feasts of the Lord than there were decades ago.
No arguments on this one, but is the change of name one of the KPI. Maybe it is to you, but to someone who does not see that need, does it mean that he is wrong?Originally posted by Yaffa:It is certainly not the fault of new converts if they come to the the Father through the name Jesus Christ, it was what was preached to them. However, as we progress on, we should desire to learn more and more and go deeper in Him to come to perfection in His sight.
Missionaries preached according to their own understanding of God and His Word at a given time, and since the Bible says to preach the gospel, they have done so in good faith (hopefully!) and to the best of their ability at that time. Their main aim is usually the salvation of souls, not their growth and progress in the Lord. Once someone is saved, it is then up to the individual to continue seeking the Lord and to grow in Him. Therein lies the duty of the church, to help the individual draw close to YHVH.
So who's right? brey insist on using Shaul... How does using Yeshua differ from using Jesus? What deeper understanding would the use of Yeshua achieve? Let me say that I do not disagree with a deeper study of the Scripture as well as understand the Hebrew culture by looking at the background and the nuances of the language, but it fails me to see just the use of Yeshua would increase my understanding of scripture. So I ask you, Yaffa, say, I am a Chinese educated Christian, one without hope of learning other language, use Ye1 Su1, would this impede my spiritual life?Originally posted by Yaffa:So if the motives of the church were misplaced, then the individual would be led astray. Those who hunger and desire for the truth will find it, that is why there are so many sects and cults and denominations, everyone wants to know the real truth. That is how many errors of the church have been found out and we are now trying to rectify the erroneous beliefs that have existed for so long in the church system.
Thus, those who only ever hear Jesus preached as Jesus and not Yeshua, if they have truly repented and changed their ways to God's ways as described in the Bible, they will have salvation. However, they would have missed out on a whole lot by not going back to understanding who Yeshua really was on earth and how He lived His life and putting the entire Bible into ints rightful context. Salvation is one thing, growing in the Lord is yet another.
Names are very important to God. For example, when Avram (Abram) was brought to a new level with the Lord, He changed his name to Avraham (Abraham), instead of meaning strong father to father of many. Sarai to Sarah, Yacov (Jacob) to Israel, Saul to Paul...
Strange, we are all told in church that Jesus also means Saviour. So therefore, from young, we are told that the name Jesus means this, how can it not have any meaning? I am sure in the dialect churches, Yar1 Sor1 (hokkien), Yeah Soh (cantonese), Ye1 Su1 (mandarin) means exactly the same thing - Saviour.Originally posted by Yaffa:If Jesus were preached by His real Name, Yeshua, they would probably preach and teach that His name means salvation or saviour. Jesus in itself has no meaning as it is simply a poor transliteration of his Hebrew name. He would probably be preached in true context as well. Through anti-semitism, much or all of His Jewishness has been obliterated.
I am prepared to learn and accomodate. I have never ever say that the opinions posted so far by you or brey are wrong. I am saying that in some of these instances, because of the authors, they are inclined towards a certain strata of people - the scholars. It has not meaning to those in the lower echelon of society and neither is it practical for them. As a matter of fact, the ONLY thing that I wish to get across is - don't say that it's incorrect or spiritually immature to use "Jesus". I think, brey and I have an understanding on that. You statement above: "We are all learning..... to be humble and to submit...." Is it a two way statement or do you just mean me?Originally posted by Yaffa:We are all learning, and the Lord reveals something to everyone. That is why He asks us to be humble and to submit to one another, so we can edify one another. Not sure if I answered all your questions... too many and too long...
Too many and too long? Only 4 or 5 questions.....
Ping2 An1.... shalom has no meaning to the uneducated Chinese. -
So threatened that they were persecuted till they could not operate? Don't think that's the way of the Lord.Originally posted by Yaffa:Oh! I forgot about the "prominent" Jewish missionaries... if not for all the first century missionaries mentioned in the Bible, there would be no followers of Yeshua today, and if all the disciples and Paul and all the many, many others mentioned in the Bible after them are not prominent, then who is? I think they are the most important ones because they were faithful to spread the gospel in the beginning. Too bad the Romans were so threatened by them...
My point is (which I'd made earlier to brey): don't know say don't know. Let me put it that there are NO prominent Jewish missionaries after Paul and Peter and possibly Thomas (who supposedly went to India). We all dig things out of the Internet, and I am sure you'd spent some time searching on the Internet, but we are not able to find out anything here. I sincerely hope that you will not reply with an answer like: the romans wiped out all the evidence.
So my advice to you is: if you don't have an answer, it's ok.
Saying "I have no answer" or "I don't know" does not make you look dumb, it makes you credible.
Ping2 An1 -
and a blessed sabbath to brey and yaffa..... no sarcasm intended....
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Shabbat Shalom to you!Originally posted by Chin Eng:and a blessed sabbath to brey and yaffa..... no sarcasm intended....