Simple lesson from the Scripture
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do not think so, we are still alike. I am open to suggestions if you can convince me that there is merit in the suggestion to consider...Originally posted by Chin Eng:I have my own interpetation of the scripture, but I am open to suggestions... that differentiates both of us.
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see previous page for suggestions.Originally posted by breytonhartge:do not think so, we are still alike. I am open to suggestions if you can convince me that there is merit in the suggestion to consider... -
edited...Originally posted by Chin Eng:see previous page for suggestions. -
1. My status in EH and DT totally different. EH is not my forum, DT is. I started DT with a certain agenda in mind. That is the way I see it, you are free to disagree does not mean I will change this part of it. I will not be impartial in DT, I have no requirement to.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I have my own interpetation of the scripture, but I am open to suggestions... that differentiates both of us.
I want to say it again: I never said you are wrong.
All I am asking from you is to be gentler in your tone. Your respond at this time is: You CE, too is equally harsh.... You know, I agree with you.
Your status in EH and DT is the same - that of a Mod (at least just before you left EH lah...) You are trying very hard to convince people of something you think is the truth. But you tend to do it with an iron fist. Perhaps I irritate the hell out of you. Think of what someone like SIS or NUS can do to you.
For most parts I agree with what you and some of those website says. But along the way you are also throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
If you have to say, the church is in error in some doctrines, it also has done some good work along the way - it might be a lot easier to accept.
Or Christmas and Easter are all the wrong dates, but at that point of time, there is no way of finding out, perhaps we should all try to rectify it.... would you believe if I told you that I try very had in my church to change the perception?
I can go on... but whatever you feel about the church and it's past leaders and the doctrine, please provide a more balance view. I don't hero worship Martin Luther or Charles Wesley but I recognise the sacrifice that they have made which resulted in the propagation of the church of today. When I look back in history as to how the message spread, I see fallable humans. When I asked you for Jews who evangelise and are contemporaries of Luther or Wesley, don't have say don't have, please don't give unrealistic answers. You have always given good realistic answers. When you come to a question that you have no answer for, be honest about it.
I have said to vince recently that I believe both you and him is more fervent in the way of the Lord than little old me (don't believe? ask him)
Disagreement with vince? that's not possible! I'd say he has something that you and I do not have. Humility. He doesn't want to argue with anyone and he has said it before - make a point and walk out.
You and I will latch on to something and milk it dry.
All I ask from you is a little more balance when you attempt to "criticise" the church, it's not perfect, but it's not totally wrong.
Also.... don't quote too much from websites lah.... overbearing Makes it seem like you don't have a mind of your own. State your case using your own language - it is more personable and passonate. Less condemnation and more reconciliation.
Peace..... and I promise to be good.
2. The church may have done good work along the way, but again I will say this that the good works count for nothing if you are not grounded in Yahweh correctly, He will simply turn around and tell you to be gone you workers of iniquity, these are His own words not mine. We have to be very careful.
3. Charles Wesley I can agree that he made sacrifices. I admire him. But Martin Luther, I have utterly no respect for. He caused the Holocaust. I do not think that Yahweh will look kindly upon him either. He caused many of Yahweh's first born to be killed, in the name of christianity....
4. About balance and criticism on the church, see my point 2. It may not be totally wrong, but even if it is half wrong, it is not the full truth. Which makes it a false thing yet again, from where I am coming from, it will suit ha sa tan very well as this is what he is all about, a bit of truth and a bit of lie, then the church is easily walking in idolatry, because they create their own god to worship. What I may have to say will sound hard, but it has to be said. Then it is up to each individual to consider these points in the light of scripture.
5. If it makes a difference to you, sure, I will write it in my own words, but easier to quote the website, they write it so well...
6. I do agree with you, vince has got more humility than either of us...
7. You do not irritate me, just confuse me a lot .... i don't really care about SIS or NUS... they can say what they want, because they speak from ignorance. No point banging your head against a wall with people who don't really want to know, especially NUS, who talks a lot of hot air...
Shalom. -
OK... point taken, but I am not asking you to be impartial, just a little bit more gentleness and tact.Originally posted by breytonhartge:1. My status in EH and DT totally different. EH is not my forum, DT is. I started DT with a certain agenda in mind. That is the way I see it, you are free to disagree does not mean I will change this part of it. I will not be impartial in DT, I have no requirement to.
My point is: the OT is full of people who screwed up big time too. Yet God found them righteous. Were these people grounded in God. For most parts, no.Originally posted by breytonhartge:2. The church may have done good work along the way, but again I will say this that the good works count for nothing if you are not grounded in Yahweh correctly, He will simply turn around and tell you to be gone you workers of iniquity, these are His own words not mine. We have to be very careful.
On the issue of tone: sure you can think that church people are not "Godly", but isn't a pronouncement of "workers of iniquity" a little too harsh. A little bit of gentleness wouldn't hurt, coming from a mod (actually in relation to point 1)
Sure, Martin Luther wrote things that weren't too nice, but centuries apart, how can you pinned the anti-Jew thing on him. If it's anything, it's Hitler. During those tumultous periods, there are plenty of anti-Jew sentiments around. It did not help either that in those times too, the Jews were anti-Jesus. Now in 2006, there are some Jews who think differently. Yeah, ML wasn't very nice, but neither were the Jews. As I'd said, hindsight is 20/20.... and the ability to do good research nowadays sure helped. To be on the strict side, Charles Wesley's life wasn't too exemplery either. So it is odd that you find one acceptable and another not. Probably the only problem is the effect on the Jews. But is this the only way to measure "sin"?Originally posted by breytonhartge:3. Charles Wesley I can agree that he made sacrifices. I admire him. But Martin Luther, I have utterly no respect for. He caused the Holocaust. I do not think that Yahweh will look kindly upon him either. He caused many of Yahweh's first born to be killed, in the name of christianity....
See my answer to your point 2. There are not ONE righteous person in the Bible, aside from Jesus. There are all full of character flaws some big some small. Yet we look upon them as heros (human nonetheless). As I'd said, a little bit of gentleness wouldn't kill.Originally posted by breytonhartge:4. About balance and criticism on the church, see my point 2. It may not be totally wrong, but even if it is half wrong, it is not the full truth. Which makes it a false thing yet again, from where I am coming from, it will suit ha sa tan very well as this is what he is all about, a bit of truth and a bit of lie, then the church is easily walking in idolatry, because they create their own god to worship. What I may have to say will sound hard, but it has to be said. Then it is up to each individual to consider these points in the light of scripture.
After saying all the hard stuff, what is your practical solution. It is one thing to sit in a room banging on the keyboard to deliver rhetorics, it is another to go out to attempt to rectify the situation - what are you doing about it? Apparently you are not even attending any church, how then can you change the church.
I am not exactly saying that you should not quote, but quote with care and when you do, give you own take too.Originally posted by breytonhartge:5. If it makes a difference to you, sure, I will write it in my own words, but easier to quote the website, they write it so well...
In all seriousness, I really don't know if anyone wants to read very long, multiple, sequel styled posts. The art of effective communication is to keep it short and simple. You do want to communicate don't you.... writing long stuff actually is easier than short and simple stuff. -
This is probably where we differ a little...Originally posted by Chin Eng:See my answer to your point 2. There are not ONE righteous person in the Bible, aside from Jesus. There are all full of character flaws some big some small. Yet we look upon them as heros (human nonetheless). As I'd said, a little bit of gentleness wouldn't kill.
Yet in all of the character flaws of these bible heroes, they understood Yahweh's laws, they understood the feasts, they understood how to keep shabbat.... where as the church has done away with Yahweh's laws, His commandments, His feasts and His Shabbat. -
I pin the Holocoust on ML because in one of his treatises, Hitler cited ML as his guiding example for the holocoust.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Sure, Martin Luther wrote things that weren't too nice, but centuries apart, how can you pinned the anti-Jew thing on him. If it's anything, it's Hitler. During those tumultous periods, there are plenty of anti-Jew sentiments around. It did not help either that in those times too, the Jews were anti-Jesus. Now in 2006, there are some Jews who think differently. Yeah, ML wasn't very nice, but neither were the Jews.
The Jews were anti-Yeshua for our sakes. It is plainly clear in the bible, yet ML supposedly missed the verse??
The Jews have every right to be skeptical about the Yeshua that the church puts forth, one that does not keep shabbat, who abolished the commandments, who supposedly allowed the eating of pork, etc... this is not the messiah that they would have known. In all of this, we seem to conveniently forget that the Jews walked with Yahweh a lot longer than any of the so called christians... -
This is being very presumptious and arrogant. How do you know that I am not doing anything about it? It does not mean that I do not attend a church I am not doing something about it. How do you know I am not attempting to rectify the situation? Do you live with me?Originally posted by Chin Eng:After saying all the hard stuff, what is your practical solution. It is one thing to sit in a room banging on the keyboard to deliver rhetorics, it is another to go out to attempt to rectify the situation - what are you doing about it? Apparently you are not even attending any church, how then can you change the church. -
Well, you are looking at ONE aspect of it. As far as the Bible is concern sin is sin, disobedience is disobedience. Bible heros are disobedient one way or another. But since you only want to focus on only one aspect.... well...Originally posted by breytonhartge:This is probably where we differ a little...
Yet in all of the character flaws of these bible heroes, they understood Yahweh's laws, they understood the feasts, they understood how to keep shabbat.... where as the church has done away with Yahweh's laws, His commandments, His feasts and His Shabbat.
If Hitler cited ML as his guiding example, is it ML's fault? It's Hitler's fault. Again, you have chosen only to focus on ONE aspect TO a person that existed centuries earlier than the real perpetrator.Originally posted by breytonhartge:I pin the Holocoust on ML because in one of his treatises, Hitler cited ML as his guiding example for the holocoust.
The Jews were anti-Yeshua for our sakes. It is plainly clear in the bible, yet ML supposedly missed the verse??
The Jews have every right to be skeptical about the Yeshua that the church puts forth, one that does not keep shabbat, who abolished the commandments, who supposedly allowed the eating of pork, etc... this is not the messiah that they would have known. In all of this, we seem to conveniently forget that the Jews walked with Yahweh a lot longer than any of the so called christians...
It is ridiculous to cite a collective time for personal walk. Sure the Jews as a nation walked longer, but each individual walked about the same time. How much trouble did they have when Jesus walked the earth? I am quite sure that the number of people who accepted Jesus as the Messiah, from biblical time to now, is still a minority, am I right?
Why am I presumptious? I am asking you want you are doing about it and I get a series of questions? So what are you doing about it? I am asking because I don't know.Originally posted by breytonhartge:This is being very presumptious and arrogant. How do you know that I am not doing anything about it? It does not mean that I do not attend a church I am not doing something about it. How do you know I am not attempting to rectify the situation? Do you live with me?
Oh... the need for anger management.....
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You are telling me you are not?Originally posted by Chin Eng:Why am I presumptious? I am asking you want you are doing about it and I get a series of questions? So what are you doing about it? I am asking because I don't know.
Oh... the need for anger management.....
I am doing lots about it. But I don't see the need to say much.
Yet even if I told you, you will only come back with some thing akin to are you sure or not or you are bluffing and making it up... so what is the point? -
Do a basic search on google... have you never read ML's exposition on Jews and their lies... how not to pin it on him. It is his fault because he was the originator of the idea in Hitler... cause and effect.Originally posted by Chin Eng:If Hitler cited ML as his guiding example, is it ML's fault? It's Hitler's fault. Again, you have chosen only to focus on ONE aspect TO a person that existed centuries earlier than the real perpetrator. -
You asked a question, I answered that question. The Jews would not recognise the Yeshua we preach as messiah, in the light of what they know in the Tenach, it is impossible.Originally posted by Chin Eng:It is ridiculous to cite a collective time for personal walk. Sure the Jews as a nation walked longer, but each individual walked about the same time. How much trouble did they have when Jesus walked the earth? I am quite sure that the number of people who accepted Jesus as the Messiah, from biblical time to now, is still a minority, am I right?
But yet in Romans 11, all Israel will be saved.
It is not ridiculous to cite a collective time for personal walk. As a nation and as a people, they have walked in the commandments and statues of Yahweh far longer than any christian, so christians really do not have the understanding of the naunces and ways of Yahweh to really be telling the jews as it is. They know better. In the time of the NT, when Shaul referred to scripture, which scripture do you think he referred to? The OT. NT was not even scripture then. -
FYI, not attending church does not mean that I do not have fellowship or that I do not attend gatherings...Originally posted by Chin Eng:Apparently you are not even attending any church, how then can you change the church. -
Nope, I am not angry.... sometimes humoured, sometimes annoyed, sometimes irritated.... angry? nope.Originally posted by breytonhartge:You are telling me you are not?
I am doing lots about it. But I don't see the need to say much.
Yet even if I told you, you will only come back with some thing akin to are you sure or not or you are bluffing and making it up... so what is the point?
You know, have I ever called your a liar? ( I can call you many names, liar isn't one of them because I don't think you are capable of lying - take it as a compliment) I really like to know what the action items are... It was REALLY REALLY an innocent question, perhaps, it may not have come out sounding polite (if that's the case, I apologise).
You know you've always accused me of inferring, aren't you doing the same thing too? Note that I am not saying you cannot infer.
There are people in the world that write crap, especially in those days where there are no research and especially no internet. If there is any blame for ML, it's only on the writing and his feelings. The reality is, someone used him as an excuse for genocide. Tons of people, too use scripture to serve their own goals, doesn't mean that the writers of scripture are wrong (eg KKK and white supremists).Originally posted by breytonhartge:Do a basic search on google... have you never read ML's exposition on Jews and their lies... how not to pin it on him. It is his fault because he was the originator of the idea in Hitler... cause and effect.
OK, my turn to get confused here, so jewish folks who don't recognise Jesus is the Messiah is also saved? Well there are many opinions of what this passage means (including the various cross references to OT). Admitted, I am not theologically sound enough to comment on this one - I don't know something and I admit it.Originally posted by breytonhartge:You asked a question, I answered that question. The Jews would not recognise the Yeshua we preach as messiah, in the light of what they know in the Tenach, it is impossible.
But yet in Romans 11, all Israel will be saved.
It is not ridiculous to cite a collective time for personal walk. As a nation and as a people, they have walked in the commandments and statues of Yahweh far longer than any christian, so christians really do not have the understanding of the naunces and ways of Yahweh to really be telling the jews as it is. They know better. In the time of the NT, when Shaul referred to scripture, which scripture do you think he referred to? The OT. NT was not even scripture then.
You see, you have NEVER said you did....Originally posted by breytonhartge:FYI, not attending church does not mean that I do not have fellowship or that I do not attend gatherings... all you said is you do not attend church.
Again, I ask, what are you guys doing about it - also an innocent question devoid of judgement. Say what you want and I will believe it - I reiterate, I HAVE NEVER EVER said you lied.
You really need to be less sensitive, afteralll it's sabbath isn't it? -
so what has shabbat got to do with being less sensitive??Originally posted by Chin Eng:You see, you have NEVER said you did.... all you said is you do not attend church.
Again, I ask, what are you guys doing about it - also an innocent question devoid of judgement. Say what you want and I will believe it - I reiterate, I HAVE NEVER EVER said you lied.
You really need to be less sensitive, afteralll it's sabbath isn't it?
what are we doing about it? lots... -
Franz Rosenzweig wrote this... and it may be pertinent for your consideration...Originally posted by Chin Eng:OK, my turn to get confused here, so jewish folks who don't recognise Jesus is the Messiah is also saved? Well there are many opinions of what this passage means (including the various cross references to OT). Admitted, I am not theologically sound enough to comment on this one - I don't know something and I admit it.
"We agree on what Christ and his Church mean in the world: no-one comes to the Father but through him (Jn 14:6). No one comes to the Father - but it is different when somebody does not have to come to the Father because he is already with him. And this is so for the people of Israel."
When Messiah comes back again and they the non-Yeshua recognising Messiah see Him, they shall be saved as is stated in Romans 11. And so shall ALL Israel be saved.
It is not like the Jews have gone into idolatry etc... they are still looking for Messiah, they are still waiting for Messiah.
But that said, they already have the Father. -
Have you ever read the whole treatise by ML called the Jews and their lies?Originally posted by Chin Eng:There are people in the world that write crap, especially in those days where there are no research and especially no internet. If there is any blame for ML, it's only on the writing and his feelings. The reality is, someone used him as an excuse for genocide. Tons of people, too use scripture to serve their own goals, doesn't mean that the writers of scripture are wrong (eg KKK and white supremists).
The reality is that Hitler used Him as a ideological model for commissioning the genocide of the Jewish people. -
shabbat - a day for reflect and peace? don't over react lah... I am trying not to...Originally posted by breytonhartge:so what has shabbat got to do with being less sensitive??
what are we doing about it? lots...
doing lots? care to share???? another innocent and ignorant question, lest it is misconstrued...
You are right: the operative word is USED. While it is true that ML wrote crap, the one who took action was Hitler.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Have you ever read the whole treatise by ML called the Jews and their lies?
The reality is that Hitler used Him as a ideological model for commissioning the genocide of the Jewish people.
If ML is faulted for anything, it's the crap he wrote. Not for what happened through Hitler.... go ahead an b-itch about those historical crap, no issue, but is it fair to pinned the holocaust, caused by Hitler, to ML? -
actually both. ML for spouting the excuse and Hitler for using it...Originally posted by Chin Eng:You are right: the operative word is USED. While it is true that ML wrote crap, the one who took action was Hitler.
If ML is faulted for anything, it's the crap he wrote. Not for what happened through Hitler.... go ahead an b-itch about those historical crap, no issue, but is it fair to pinned the holocaust, caused by Hitler, to ML? Both just as guilty. -
I am glad we are getting somewhere.... here's what I mean by BALANCE.Originally posted by breytonhartge:actually both. ML for spouting the excuse and Hitler for using it... Both just as guilty. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:I am glad we are getting somewhere.... here's what I mean by BALANCE.
glad you are happy, hope you have a good day... -
Shalom! My New Testament cross references this entire section with 1 Cor 8:4-13 which deals with food offered to idols.Originally posted by vince69:
quote:
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19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
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Psalm 65
This psalm contains awe-inspiring and glorious praises to God, as well as entreaties and prayers concerning our sins. It declares it impossible to recount God's greatness, for who can recount His mighty acts? Hence, silence is His praise.
1. For the Conductor, a psalm by David, a song. 2. Silence is praise for You, O God [Who dwells in] Zion; and to You vows will be paid. 3. O Heeder of prayer, to You does all flesh come. 4. Matters of sin overwhelm me; You will pardon our transgressions. 5. Fortunate is [the nation] whom You choose and draw near, to dwell in Your courtyards; may we be sated with the goodness of Your House, with the holiness of Your Sanctuary. 6. Answer us with awesome deeds as befits Your righteousness, O God of our salvation, the security of all [who inhabit] the ends of the earth and distant seas. 7. With His strength He prepares [rain for] the mountains; He is girded with might. 8. He quiets the roar of the seas, the roar of their waves and the tumult of nations. 9. Those who inhabit the ends [of the earth] fear [You] because of Your signs; the emergences of morning and evening cause [man] to sing praise. 10. You remember the earth and water it, you enrich it abundantly [from] God's stream filled with water. You prepare their grain, for so do You prepare it. 11. You saturate its furrows, gratifying its legions; with showers You soften it and bless its growth. 12. You crown the year of Your goodness [with rain], and Your clouds drip abundance. 13. They drip on pastures of wilderness, and the hills gird themselves with joy. 14. The meadows don sheep, and the valleys cloak themselves with grain; they sound blasts, indeed they sing -
Psalm 61
David composed this prayer while fleeing from Saul. The object of all his thoughts and his entreaty is that God grant him long life-not for the sake of pursuing the pleasures of the world, but rather to serve God in awe, all of his days.
1. For the Conductor, on the neginat, by David. 2. Hear my cry, O God, listen to my prayer. 3. From the end of the earth I call to You, when my heart is faint [with trouble]: Lead me upon the rock that surpasses me! 4. For You have been a refuge for me, a tower of strength in the face of the enemy. 5. I will dwell in Your tent forever; I will take refuge in the shelter of Your wings, Selah. 6. For You, God, heard my vows; You granted the inheritance of those who fear Your Name. 7. Add days to the days of the king; may his years equal those of every generation. 8. May he sit always before God; appoint kindness and truth to preserve him. 9. Thus will I sing the praise of Your Name forever, as I fulfill my vows each day. -
Proverbs 9:1
Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars
I was reading this as my bible portion for today and was curious about the seven pillars of wisdom, as this is most mentioned in proverbs, I did a search through proverbs on wisdom.
I came up with this, could be wrong, but I thought I'd share it. The seven pillars of wisdom are:
Understanding Knowledge Discretion Prudence Righteousness Justice Humility
Feel free to disagree and add any of your thoughts.