What does this mean??
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Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, ' I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"
To whom could the Lord be talking to and why this warning? -
Any comments?
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there r 2 stands to tis...for those who believe tat salvation can nvr be lost, they will call such 'christians' as those who were nt saved in the 1st place. they juz possessed the gift of prophesy, casting out of demons etc. so they make the stand tat even non-christians can have these gifts n these ppl r the ones who will deceive many during the last days...
the 2nd stand r those christians who believe tat salvation can be lost...they will claim tat these ppl could have been saved but along the way lost their salvation possibly due to wilful sinning...however, these christains like the earlier ones do nt rule out the possibilty tat these ppl may nt have been christians in the 1st place, they juz merely possess these gifts...cheers!!! -
I think this is truly a serious warning to all of us who claim to be believers in the Lord. We have to make sure we are truly worshipping our God in the way He requires of us, not in our man made religious ways. Quite obviously, simply calling Yeshua Lord, going to church and even doing miracles are not going to ensure our salvation. In fact, in the above verse, Yeshua asks these people to depart from Him and even calls them workers of lawlessness.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, ' I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"
To whom could the Lord be talking to and why this warning?
It is thus evidently of utmost importance to Him for us to practice lawfulness on top of confessing and believing that Yeshua is Lord. If we truly believe in Him and repent, we will go on to learn about His ways and walk in them, not by man's interpretation of religion but what is written in His Word. -
Exodus 16 (The LORD Provides Manna) : NASB
we know the Ten commandments was "given" in Exodus 20, which means most likely it happens after this event, what does it means not keeping the commandments? what is this commandment?
verse 28 : Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
*************stay tuned *********** -
hi vince, it says my commandments. not just a commandment.Originally posted by vince69:we know the Ten commandments was "given" in Exodus 20, which means most likely it happens after this event, what does it means not keeping the commandments? what is this commandment?
*************stay tuned *********** -
Shabbat shalom!Originally posted by vince69:we know the Ten commandments was "given" in Exodus 20, which means most likely it happens after this event, what does it means not keeping the commandments? what is this commandment?
*************stay tuned ***********
Here in Exodus 16, the Lord was most specifically speaking of His sabbath which the Israelites were commanded to keep, way before the "Ten Commandments" were formally written on stone. This proves that God's commandments have always been the same, even before Mount Sinai and after Yeshua's death and resurrection. He is the same yesterday, today and forever!
Even before the 4th commandment concerning the keeping of His sabbath was given, the Israelites were already commanded to keep this and all His commandments which we now know to be the Ten Commandments and all the other commandments he gives us in His Holy Scriptures or the Old Testament.
The Israelites then are a picture of us today. Even though God has given us His commandments, we choose not to obey them and do whatever we please. And the same message for them is the same one for us today: How long will you refuse to keep my commandments and my Torah?
May our Father continue to be patient and merciful towards us... -
Shabbat shalom to you,Originally posted by Yaffa:Shabbat shalom!
Here in Exodus 16, the Lord was most specifically speaking of His sabbath which the Israelites were commanded to keep, way before the "Ten Commandments" were formally written on stone. This proves that God's commandments have always been the same, even before Mount Sinai and after Yeshua's death and resurrection. He is the same yesterday, today and forever!
Even before the 4th commandment concerning the keeping of His sabbath was given, the Israelites were already commanded to keep this and all His commandments which we now know to be the Ten Commandments and all the other commandments he gives us in His Holy Scriptures or the Old Testament.
The Israelites then are a picture of us today. Even though God has given us His commandments, we choose not to obey them and do whatever we please. And the same message for them is the same one for us today: How long will you refuse to keep my commandments and my Torah?
May our Father continue to be patient and merciful towards us...
Yes, indeed you are right, the Isrealites failed to keep the sabbath and instead of resting on the day as the Lord had instructed, they went off to try to collect the Mana (provided by the Lord) which the Lord tells them not to, hence a willful disobedience.
Yes, May we continue to rest in His grace and mercy. -
By your last sentence, what do you mean in the light of the previous posts? ie we can not follow the commandments of Yahveh and trust that we will be shown grace and mercy or that we should keep the commandments of Yahveh and that should we fall, we will be given grace because of His mercy to repent (teshuva) and return to following and keeping Torah?Originally posted by vince69:Shabbat shalom to you,
Yes, indeed you are right, the Isrealites failed to keep the sabbath and instead of resting on the day as the Lord had instructed, they went off to try to collect the Mana (provided by the Lord) which the Lord tells them not to, hence a willful disobedience.
Yes, May we continue to rest in His grace and mercy. -
Not that I want to pick a fight, just clarifying the position.
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1) Then we need to look back to what is this one instruction given here, the one instruction isOriginally posted by breytonhartge:By your last sentence, what do you mean in the light of the previous posts? ie we can not follow the commandments of Yahveh and trust that we will be shown grace and mercy or that we should keep the commandments of Yahveh and that should we fall, we will be given grace because of His mercy to repent (teshuva) and return to following and keeping Torah?
for 6 days the Israelites are to gather the mana, on the sixth day, the Lord will provide double so that on the seventh day, the Israelites are to rest in His Providence (grace and mercy).
Hence my statement, May we continue to rest in His grace and mercy (ie. keep the sabbath)
2) On keeping the Commandments and Instructions, we all know we are all saved by the grace through faith in Yeshua's finished work and not according to our own works (hence let no one boast), but we are also saved to do good works. Therefore I can only conclude that should we fall, we fall in the mercy of YHWH (and of course, this does not exempt us from doing good, just that there is a safety net), and should we succeed, we succeed in the His grace.
If I succeed in obeying, its because of His grace, if I failed, I can find His mercy.
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no fighting in discussion thread ...Originally posted by breytonhartge:Not that I want to pick a fight, just clarifying the position. 
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smack...Originally posted by vince69:no fighting in discussion thread ... 
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Hi Vince,Originally posted by vince69:we know the Ten commandments was "given" in Exodus 20, which means most likely it happens after this event, what does it means not keeping the commandments? what is this commandment?
*************stay tuned ***********
Read Exodus chapter 18:15-16
And Moses said to his father-in-law, "because the people come to me to inquire of God. When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between on e and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws."
Verse 20: And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do.
So it is clear that the Israelites who were brought out of Egypt were taught the commandments of Yahweh in that time through Moses. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
God's commandments are a reflection of His character, they show us what pleases Him and what doesn't, so it makes sense that His children throughout history would hear the same commandments from Him since He is the same yesterday, today and forever. The key, as always, is obedience. He has and always will require obedience from us, the ball is in our court as to whether or not we choose to obey or disregard, or "wait" for the Holy Spirit to "convict" us (excuses, excuses... hehe).
Hi Vince,
Read Exodus chapter 18:15-16
And Moses said to his father-in-law, "because the people come to me to inquire of God. When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between on e and another; and [b]I make known the statutes of God and His laws."
Verse 20: And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do.
So it is clear that the Israelites who were brought out of Egypt were taught the commandments of Yahweh in that time through Moses. [/b] -
Reminds me of what I tell my daughter,Originally posted by Yaffa:God's commandments are a reflection of His character, they show us what pleases Him and what doesn't, so it makes sense that His children throughout history would hear the same commandments from Him since He is the same yesterday, today and forever. The key, as always, is obedience. He has and always will require obedience from us, the ball is in our court as to whether or not we choose to obey or disregard, or "wait" for the Holy Spirit to "convict" us (excuses, excuses... hehe).
"I won't scold you if you make mistake or failed, but I won't be please if you do not try"
The same is this, though there is no condemnation if we failed (in regards to commandments/laws), but does not means we have excuse to break them.
it is in my humble opinion, that no sane christian (with the Holy Spirit in them) will just wake up in the morning and ponder how to break or disobey the instructions/commandments of God. That's why we need the assurance that we can have the confidence that our Abba Father allows U-Turn back to Him should we unintentionally fail/fall. -
Vince, the question then is, why do so many think that there is no need to live by the Torah, and follow all the commandments?Originally posted by vince69:Reminds me of what I tell my daughter,
"I won't scold you if you make mistake or failed, but I won't be please if you do not try"
The same is this, though there is no condemnation if we failed (in regards to commandments/laws), but does not means we have excuse to break them.
it is in my humble opinion, that no sane christian (with the Holy Spirit in them) will just wake up in the morning and ponder how to break or disobey the instructions/commandments of God. That's why we need the assurance that we can have the confidence that our Abba Father allows U-Turn back to Him should we unintentionally fail/fall.
What I am trying to get at is an internalisation of the Torah, it was supposed to be written on our minds and in our hearts, yet many live as thought it were not necessary or important, it is the way to life and the path that we would follow after salvation. -
like the charismatic circle, I am talking about those that really follows the prompting of the Holy Spirit, though they do not say follow the Torah or follow the commandments (don't even think they really teached these in the church), rather they teach about the prompting of the Holy Spirit, what then will the Holy Spirit leads/prompt us to do? isn't its not what God want us to do? then they are doing it without even knowing it.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Vince, the question then is, why do so many think that there is no need to live by the Torah, and follow all the commandments?
What I am trying to get at is an internalisation of the Torah, it was supposed to be written on our minds and in our hearts, yet many live as thought it were not necessary or important, it is the way to life and the path that we would follow after salvation.
Just as there are those who followed without knowing that they are doing it, its like its just the right thing to do or its just the only sensible thing to do. Since God had them written in our hearts, IMHO, the wanting should be from the inside and not from the presure outside.
Allow me to emphasis again,
The Lord had already given us the reason, the desire, the means plus a safety net to do it.
I think most people do not have this problem about following the lord's commanments/instructions, the issue some have is that when people started to put this as a yoke around the believers and say unless you do this and this, else even Christ also cannot save you. Meaning Christ work is incomplete and need our obedence to complete His works, to me, we can never add to the perfectness of Christ nor His finished work. (unlike the blood of bulls and goats which are temporal, Christ's blood are both permenant and eternal)
In other words, to me personally, when Christ on the cross says it is finished, He meant it is finished and not it had just began.
To me Salvation is given by grace through Christ, good works and obedience are results of receiving this grace.
*added: I think we are on similar page here, what I am doing is just trying to put it as much of a practical term as my limited ability could. -
That is true, I do agree that salvation is by grace through Yeshua, but this is not the end of it as most churches teach. It is only the very very beginning, this is what Shaul is talking about when he talks about drinking milk... the Torah is solid food.Originally posted by vince69:like the charismatic circle, I am talking about those that really follows the prompting of the Holy Spirit, though they do not say follow the Torah or follow the commandments (don't even think they really teached these in the church), rather they teach about the prompting of the Holy Spirit, what then will the Holy Spirit leads/prompt us to do? isn't its not what God want us to do? then they are doing it without even knowing it.
Just as there are those who followed without knowing that they are doing it, its like its just the right thing to do or its just the only sensible thing to do. Since God had them written in our hearts, IMHO, the wanting should be from the inside and not from the presure outside.
Allow me to emphasis again,
The Lord had already given us the reason, the desire, the means plus a safety net to do it.
I think most people do not have this problem about following the lord's commanments/instructions, the issue some have is that when people started to put this as a yoke around the believers and say unless you do this and this, else even Christ also cannot save you. Meaning Christ work is incomplete and need our obedence to complete His works, to me, we can never add to the perfectness of Christ nor His finished work. (unlike the blood of bulls and goats which are temporal, Christ's blood are both permenant and eternal)
In other words, to me personally, when Christ on the cross says it is finished, He meant it is finished and not it had just began.
To me Salvation is given by grace through Christ, good works and obedience are results of receiving this grace.
*added: I think we are on similar page here, what I am doing is just trying to put it as much of a practical term as my limited ability could.
What is finished? To me that is the divide which separates us from Yahweh, that is what is finished. Not that the Torah is finished. That has always been the guide to the way we believers should live life. It is Hashem's way of what He wants us to live life. (and yes I do agree with you that good works and obedience are the results of this grace... )
I heard someone talk about the work of Yeshua and what this person was trying to say was that the thing that Yeshua changed was that where once there was sin and judgement, now there is forgiveness. But this still does not preclude us from following in the ways of Yahweh.
Shalom and shavua tov!