Keeping the commandments... skibi.
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Actually there is where you are wrong. The moment we accept Yeshua, we become part of Israel, so we are also adopted sons and daughters of Yeshua's COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL. Hence, the requirements of us are exactly the same, we are also HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. If we as sons and daughters do not know how to be about our FATHERS business, how can we call ourselves heirs?Originally posted by Icemoon:God judges according to the person. It cannot be the same for everyone because we live under different circumstances.
For the Jews, the requirements are higher. It is the price to pay for being God's chosen people. However they are spiritually closer to God, that's why some gentiles want to convert to Judaism - to get closer to God. But conversion is not encouraged and rabbis will try to dissuade you. -
Originally posted by laoda99:
Yeshua's provision of the means of salvation is by no means the end. It is but the beginning of every believer in Torah.
Deviate a bit...very interestingly, the Westminster Shorter Catechism says:
Q. 82. Is any man able perfectly to keep the commandments of God?
A. No mere man since the fall is able in this life perfectly to keep the commandments of God, but doth daily break them in thought, word and deed.
I think this answer Brey's previous posts.
Keeping the commandments of Yahweh is a requirement of daily living.
Yahweh requires of us obedience.
The fact that we may break them in thought, word and deed is no excuse for us tyring to keep Torah daily. The way we train ourselves to live Torah is by living Torah, so that little by little, step by step, we get closer to keeping Torah perfectly as Yeshua did. -
few things I would like to addOriginally posted by breytonhartge:Yeshua's provision of the means of salvation is by no means the end. It is but the beginning of every believer in Torah.
Keeping the commandments of Yahweh is a requirement of daily living.
Yahweh requires of us obedience.
The fact that we may break them in thought, word and deed is no excuse for us tyring to keep Torah daily. The way we train ourselves to live Torah is by living Torah, so that little by little, step by step, we get closer to keeping Torah perfectly as Yeshua did.
1) we are saved by grace through the blood of Yeshua
2) we are saved to do good works (Note: we are first saved)
3) YHWH had promised that He will remember our sins no more, and that He will write His commandments/instructions into our heart
4) The Holy Spirit is given to us as our counsellor/teacher
What does these means?
that God had put His commandments/instructions in to our heart (not there for show only, but to enable us to understand/follow them),
plus He gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us, teach us,
plus God through Christ had put in place a safetly net of grace if we falls,
plus His promised that He will remember our sins (short coming no more).
We obey/follow, not out of fear, but because we know our Abba Father loves us. The Law/Commandments are not there to restrict/enslave us, but was put there in place for our good, for within its boundaries, we can operate/moves safely and freely.
God bless.
just thought of this punch line....
In Him (Yeshua) we can, apart from Him, we cannot. -
I agree with what you say Vince, but the problem with the modern day church is that they teach that Torah is death, but far from it, it is life and life to the fullest, without it, we only have a shadow of what should be. Is not Yeshua life? When Yahweh gave us Torah, He meant it for life, not death... too much negative connotation has been associated with Torah...
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Love God... in doing so you keep the first 4 commandments.Originally posted by Skibi:When Jesus came to earth as a man, he gave up all his powers. All the miracles he performed was not with his own power, but God's. This is to show that it is possible for everyone to keep the commandments of God perfectly in heart and deed. Actually due to Jesus' sacrifice it is now even easier to keep God's commandments perfectly as we can seek forgiveness directly from Jesus without having to go through the ritual of sacrificing burnt offerings.
Before Jesus, there was Enoch and Elijah. They could do it, so can we.
To clarify what keeping God commandments perfectly means...
1. Love God
2. Love your neighbour
Everytime we sin we must seek God for forgiveness to absolve our sins. Once our sins have been absolved we are 100% holy until we sin again. However this does not mean we can sin with impunity. To prove our sincerity we must try to sin less and less each time God forgives us until eventually we sin no more. This is because God only forgives those who truly wish to repent.
The thing to note is that once a sin has been absolved by God it is forever forgiven. You may remember it, but God will not bring it up anymore.
Love your neighbour as yourself... in doing this, you keep the next six commandments... so who says you don't have to keep the commandments...
But in all of this we have to learn to keep Torah. -
A word of wisdomOriginally posted by breytonhartge:I agree with what you say Vince, but the problem with the modern day church is that they teach that Torah is death, but far from it, it is life and life to the fullest, without it, we only have a shadow of what should be. Is not Yeshua life? When Yahweh gave us Torah, He meant it for life, not death... too much negative connotation has been associated with Torah...
Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. -
Amen and AMEN!!!Originally posted by vince69:A word of wisdom
Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. -
here is an exerpt form something I posted in exhortation and encouragement...
Learning Torah and performing its commandments has the unique ability to challenge us to rise up and excercise our latent potential. Through becoming accustomed to behave as G-d commands us in His Torah, we become a refined, second edition of our real selves. We begin to realize how brightly we can shine, and how special we really are. Just as the stars are unique, exalted, and shining bright, so are we when we work toward getting in touch with, and living up to our name. -
Shady argument.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Actually there is where you are wrong. The moment we accept Yeshua, we become part of Israel, so we are also adopted sons and daughters of Yeshua's COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL. Hence, the requirements of us are exactly the same, we are also HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. If we as sons and daughters do not know how to be about our FATHERS business, how can we call ourselves heirs?
Did God tell you this?
God revealed His intentions to the whole Jewish nation at Sinai.
When and where did He mention His commonwealth of Israel? -
How come got commonwealth but the Jews are still in the dark about it?
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By the way .. we are already sons and daughters of God.
He is our Creator and we are His creations. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
maybe someone can correct me, ths idea/concept of Gentile Christians being drafted in as part of Israel, as adopted children of God, probably spuned off from Romans 11 and Ephesians 1.
Shady argument.
Did God tell you this?
God revealed His intentions to the [b]whole Jewish nation at Sinai.
When and where did He mention His commonwealth of Israel?[/b]
though there are those that interpret that this actually refers to The People belonging to God (making up by all believers, both Jewish and Gentiles),
there are also those that interpreted this as refering to the Nation of Israel, as God's chosen people, and the Gentile believers being grafted in.
Romans 11:11-24
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Ephesians 1:4-6
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. -
A message that is arguably as important as the one revealed at Sinai is now revealed .. by writings with a dubious authorship?
Seriously .. why would Jews even bother with writings that are not meant for them?
The worst thing is .. Christians can't even agree on what those verses mean!
God could have chosen a better way of revealing His masterplan. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Ephesians 2:11-13
Shady argument.
Did God tell you this?
God revealed His intentions to the [b]whole Jewish nation at Sinai.
When and where did He mention His commonwealth of Israel?[/b]
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Yeshua, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Yeshua Hamaschiach you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Yeshua.
Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Note that unless we become one with Israel, we have no part of the new covenant as this was made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel
Hebrews 8:8
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Hebrews 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. -
christians cannot agree because they start from the wrong starting point.Originally posted by Icemoon:A message that is arguably as important as the one revealed at Sinai is now revealed .. by writings with a dubious authorship?
Seriously .. why would Jews even bother with writings that are not meant for them?
The worst thing is .. Christians can't even agree on what those verses mean!
God could have chosen a better way of revealing His masterplan. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
All NT verses?
Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Yeshua, being aliens from the [b]commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Yeshua Hamaschiach you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Yeshua.
Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Note that unless we become one with Israel, we have no part of the new covenant as this was made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel
Hebrews 8:8
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Hebrews 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [/b]
From dubious authors? We don't even know who wrote Hebrews for goodness sake! -
Brey .. never forget the historical factor.
The New Testament was chosen by the Catholic fathers.
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I have not...Originally posted by Icemoon:Brey .. never forget the historical factor.
The New Testament was chosen by the Catholic fathers.
Shaul used the Holy Scriptures to preach about the new covenant...
Jeremiah 31:31
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— -
and where do you belong?Originally posted by breytonhartge:I have not...
Shaul used the Holy Scriptures to preach about the new covenant...
Jeremiah 31:31
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Israel or Judah?
They refer to the two kingdoms right? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Actually, God revealed His intentions to the Israelites, then known as the Hebrews, God's firstborn. They were never once referred to then as being Jewish in religion or race, were they?
Shady argument.
Did God tell you this?
God revealed His intentions to the [b]whole Jewish nation at Sinai.
When and where did He mention His commonwealth of Israel?[/b] -
Was God's Law Abolished in the New Testament?
If the Sabbath were indeed abolished in the New Testament, we should find numerous passages throughout the New Testament making that clear. The negating of one of God's Ten Commandments would certainly require nothing less.
Jesus Christ said that "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law" until all is "fulfilled," or has completely filled its purpose (Matthew 5:18 ). Various passages, including entire chapters of the New Testament, make clear the spiritual purpose behind such practices as animal sacrifices and temple worship (Hebrews 7:11-19; 8:1-6; 9:1-15; 10:1-18 ).
But God's commandments remain. The last books written in the New Testament were, in A.D. 85-95, John's epistles and, about A.D. 95, the book of Revelation. Were the Ten Commandments abolished by that time? Notice John's words: "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3, 4).
John defined sin as the violation of God's laws. "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness," he wrote (1 John 3:4). He knew that God's law was a law of love, defining both our love for others and our love for God: "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:2, 3).
The intent of God's law from the beginning was love, as Jesus Christ taught: "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it" (2 John 6).
The book of Revelation, divinely inspired by Jesus Christ Himself (Revelation 1:1), also upholds keeping God's commandments. In Revelation 12:17, shortly before Jesus Christ's return, Satan attempts to destroy members of God's Church, "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
In Revelation 14:12, the saints are described as "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Faith and keeping God's commandments go hand in hand, as Paul stated earlier (Romans 3:31).
In the last chapter of the Bible, Jesus Christ gave a final message to the Church: "'Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work...'Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of [eternal] life, and may enter through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:12, 14).
Clearly God's law is not abolished in the New Testament. -
The notion of Jewishness started around the first diaspora.Originally posted by Yaffa:Actually, God revealed His intentions to the Israelites, then known as the Hebrews, God's firstborn. They were never once referred to then as being Jewish in religion or race, were they?
Well .. Samaritans are technically Israelities also right? -
Yes, I think the are technically of the land of Israel though it is likely they didn't follow the same biblical laws as the Jews, which is probably why they were not seen or deemed to be one of them.Originally posted by Icemoon:The notion of Jewishness started around the first diaspora.
Well .. Samaritans are technically Israelities also right? -
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htmOriginally posted by Yaffa:Actually, God revealed His intentions to the Israelites, then known as the Hebrews, God's firstborn. They were never once referred to then as being Jewish in religion or race, were they?The word "Jew" (in Hebrew, "Yehudi") is derived from the name Judah, which was the name of one of Jacob's twelve sons. Judah was the ancestor of one of the tribes of Israel, which was named after him. Likewise, the word Judaism literally means "Judah-ism," that is, the religion of the Yehudim. Other sources, however, say that the word "Yehudim" means "People of G-d," because the first three letters of "Yehudah" are the same as the first three letters of G-d's four-letter name.
So this answers your question. The word was used in biblical times.
Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
In the 6th century B.C.E., the kingdom of Israel was conquered by Assyria and the ten tribes were exiled from the land (II Kings 17), leaving only the tribes in the kingdom of Judah remaining to carry on Abraham's heritage. These people of the kingdom of Judah were generally known to themselves and to other nations as Yehudim (Jews), and that name continues to be used today. -
To verify Esther 2 with the NIV:
5 Now there was in the citadel of Susa a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin, named Mordecai son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, 6 who had been carried into exile from Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, among those taken captive with Jehoiachin [a] king of Judah. 7 Mordecai had a cousin named Hadassah, whom he had brought up because she had neither father nor mother. This girl, who was also known as Esther, was lovely in form and features, and Mordecai had taken her as his own daughter when her father and mother died.