G_d three distinct persons?? Really??
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All these verses do not mean a thing. Because we can always interpret them differently, like the Jews. I won't go into their interpretation here.
Suffice to say, it is very easy for God to be much clearer. About the Messiah as God and Messiah as sacrifice.
God is very clear when it comes to observing the Torah. When it is unclear in Scripture, the Mesorah will fill the void.
How come God is so not clear when it comes to Yeshua? -
was Yahweh unclear when it came to Yeshua??Originally posted by Icemoon:All these verses do not mean a thing. Because we can always interpret them differently, like the Jews. I won't go into their interpretation here.
Suffice to say, it is very easy for God to be much clearer. About the Messiah as God and Messiah as sacrifice.
God is very clear when it comes to observing the Torah. When it is unclear in Scripture, the Mesorah will fill the void.
How come God is so not clear when it comes to Yeshua? -
Of course.Originally posted by breytonhartge:was Yahweh unclear when it came to Yeshua??
The question is .. if Yahweh was clear .. why the Jews don't believe?
And we are not even talking about pagan Jews here. -
Brey, I don't feel good seeing you quote rabbinical commentators when they don't believe in Yeshua.
You quote Rashi? Oh come on .. -
did I quote Rashi?Originally posted by Icemoon:Brey, I don't feel good seeing you quote rabbinical commentators when they don't believe in Yeshua.
You quote Rashi? Oh come on .. -
they believe in Yeshua, they are waiting for Him to come. All the ferverent Jews are looking for Messiah.Originally posted by Icemoon:Brey, I don't feel good seeing you quote rabbinical commentators when they don't believe in Yeshua.
You quote Rashi? Oh come on .. -
Your articles do. And you are endorsing them.Originally posted by breytonhartge:did I quote Rashi? -
But is Yeshua the Messiah? It is unfair to claim they believe in Yeshua. You projected your belief of the Messiah onto their belief?Originally posted by breytonhartge:they believe in Yeshua, they are waiting for Him to come. All the ferverent Jews are looking for Messiah. -
the articles that I post in Exhortation and encouragement are daily Torah portions, I find that there is still a lot of wisdom in them, take the meat and spit the bones, I also post from other sources...Originally posted by Icemoon:Your articles do. And you are endorsing them.
why do I post them? because they have good insights into Jewish thinking... and why not since the Jews have walked longest with Yahweh. -
Ok .. when I read wisdom and insights from the Jews .. my anger has subsided somehow.
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We know that Yeshua is the Messiah... and they are waiting for Messiah.Originally posted by Icemoon:But is Yeshua the Messiah? It is unfair to claim they believe in Yeshua. You projected your belief of the Messiah onto their belief?
Why do they not see? Ref Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. -
too hot tempered also not good for your health... me is like that type A personality... but have learnt to cool down...Originally posted by Icemoon:Ok .. when I read wisdom and insights from the Jews .. my anger has subsided somehow. -
So the brethren are ignorant?Originally posted by breytonhartge:We know that Yeshua is the Messiah... and they are waiting for Messiah.
Why do they not see? Ref Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Even for the scholars and sages responsible for the Mesorah? Even the Rebbe was kept in the dark?
So how was the situation like? Rabbi like Hillel and Akiva didn't know that?
And an ulu student of Gamaliel knew that?
Or Hillel and Akiva knew that but was sworn to secrecy by God?
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Notice this admission in the New Bible Dictionary: "The term 'Trinity' is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation only in the 4th and 5th centuries" (1996, "Trinity").
An interesting piece of information that I found whilst googling the term trinity... -
An interesting explanation on Matthew28:19
What About Matthew 28:19?
Matthew 28:19 is a sometimes misunderstood biblical passage with regard to the Trinity doctrine. "Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in ['into,' Greek eis] the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
Remember the important principle that the Bible interprets the Bible. What this particular passage shows us is the proper baptismal formula, not a description of the nature of God.
Notice Acts 2:38: "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." After real repentance and being baptized, the example from Scripture is that a minister lays his hands on the repentant person and he or she receives the Holy Spirit directly from God (Acts 8:14-17).
Important as it is, baptism alone is not sufficient. It must be followed by the biblically mandated laying on of hands for the receiving of the Holy Spirit—the seed of eternal life (Acts 19:1-6). We cannot partake of God's nature (2 Peter 1:4) without first being begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit, which imparts that divine nature.
Christ's instruction in Matthew 28:19 presumes that, before being baptized, believers will learn of God the Father, His Son and the Holy Spirit. At baptism, they enter into a personal family relationship with God the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit, thereby receiving the name of God (compare Ephesians 3:14-15). This is the message of Matthew 28:19. -
Paul's example and teaching
If God were a Trinity, surely Paul, who recorded much of the theological underpinnings of the early Church, would have comprehended and taught this concept. Yet we find no such teaching in His writings.
Moreover, Paul's standard greeting in his letter to the churches, as well as individuals to whom he wrote, is "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." In each of his greetings he never mentions the Holy Spirit. (The same can also be said of Peter in the salutations of both his epistles.)
The same greeting, with only minor variations, appears in every epistle that bears Paul's name (see Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; etc.) The Holy Spirit is always left out of these greetings—an unbelievable and inexplicable oversight if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ.
This is even more surprising when we consider that the congregations to which Paul wrote had many gentile members from polytheistic backgrounds who had formerly worshiped numerous gods. Paul's epistles record no attempt on his part to explain the Trinity or Holy Spirit as a divine person equal with God the Father and Jesus Christ.
In all of Paul's writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the Holy Spirit mentioned along with the Father and Christ, and there only in connection with the "fellowship of the Holy Spirit" (NIV) in which believers share—not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God. God's Spirit, says Paul, is the unifying agent that brings us together in godly, righteous fellowship, not only with one another but with the Father and Son.
Yet here, too, God's Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the Holy Spirit. As 1 John 1:3 tells us, "truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." The Holy Spirit is not mentioned.
Paul states that "there is one God, the Father, . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . ." (1 Corinthians 8:6). He makes no mention of the Holy Spirit s a divine person. -
The teaching of the Trinity originated well after the New Testament was written rather than with the Bible writers themselves. How, then, do we define the Holy Spirit if it is not a person?
Rather than describing the Holy Spirit as a distinct person or entity, the Bible most often refers to it as and connects it with God's divine power (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8 ). Jewish scholars, examining the references to it in the Old Testament Scriptures, have never defined the Holy Spirit as anything but the power of God. -
Other biblical perspectives
Jesus likewise never spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine third person. Instead, in numerous passages He spoke only of the relationship between God the Father and Himself (Matthew 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18, 22; etc.). The Holy Spirit as a person is conspicuously absent from Christ's teaching in general. Of particular interest in this regard are His many statements about Himself and the Father, especially when He never makes similar statements about Himself and the Holy Spirit.
We should also consider that, in visions of God's throne recorded in the Bible, although the Father and Christ are seen, the Holy Spirit is never seen (Acts 7:55-56; Daniel 7:9-14; Revelation 4-5; 7:10). Jesus is repeatedly mentioned as being at the right hand of God, but no one is mentioned as being at the Father's left hand. Nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in the Scriptures.
Even in the final book of the Bible (and the last to be written), the Holy Spirit as a divine person is absent from its pages. The book describes "a new heaven and new earth" (Revelation 21:1) wherein "the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them" (verse 3). Christ, the Lamb of God, is also present (verse 22). The Holy Spirit, however, is again absent—another inexplicable oversight if this Spirit is the third person of a triune God.
Clearly, the Holy Spirit, from the evidence found in the Bible, is not a person in a supposed Trinity. Regrettably, the unbiblical doctrine of the Trinity obscures the scriptural teaching that God is a family—a family which, as we will see, is our ultimate destiny! -
All these great Rabbis came when? After the new testament times right?Originally posted by Icemoon:So the brethren are ignorant?
Even for the scholars and sages responsible for the Mesorah? Even the Rebbe was kept in the dark?
So how was the situation like? Rabbi like Hillel and Akiva didn't know that?
And an ulu student of Gamaliel knew that?
Or Hillel and Akiva knew that but was sworn to secrecy by God? -
Contemporary.Originally posted by breytonhartge:All these great Rabbis came when? After the new testament times right?
Hillel lived before Jesus, Akiva after Jesus. They are the more famous ones.
The Mesorah stretched from Moshe to at least the Rambam.
The Apostle Paul wasn't even a player in the Mesorah. -
I don't know that the scriptures mention that the Holy Spirit is an actual person but there are numerous passages of scripture which point to the Father and Son and that together they are Elohim. The Holy Spirit I have always taken to be the power or breath of God, the empowerment, but where does it say in scripture that the Holy Spirit is a person?Originally posted by Icemoon:Nope. It was just man's futile attempt to justify their agenda, to package and market their new religion.
The Trinity wasn't revealed to the Israelites. Not in their Written Torah. Nor Oral Torah.
How do you explain that?
Edit: The Trinity is indispensable for salvation, because only God in Yeshua is the perfect sacrifice. Now we wonder, why the Jews didn't know that from their Mesorah?
The Mesorah deals more with practical daily life and how to actual apply the laws, right? It is in the scriptures that the secrets are hidden, prophecies given shrouded in mystery... I can only say it is God's grace to the gentiles, or else they would never have had a chance at salvation.
I don't know of any Jew who believes in God who doesn't believe in the soon coming of their Messiah, so many traditional songs call for His coming, songs still sung to this very day and known by practically every Jew.
Anyway, Yeshua simply means salvation, and I am sure when He returns again like He promised, all awaiting for the Messiah will recognize Him, like Joseph's brothers recognized him when he revealed himself to them. -
No la, the "person" is a theological term, not your layman definition of it.Originally posted by Yaffa:I don't know that the scriptures mention that the Holy Spirit is an actual person but there are numerous passages of scripture which point to the Father and Son and that together they are Elohim. The Holy Spirit I have always taken to be the power or breath of God, the empowerment, but where does it say in scripture that the Holy Spirit is a person?
The Mesorah deals more with practical daily life and how to actual apply the laws, right? It is in the scriptures that the secrets are hidden, prophecies given shrouded in mystery... I can only say it is God's grace to the gentiles, or else they would never have had a chance at salvation.
I don't know of any Jew who believes in God who doesn't believe in the soon coming of their Messiah, so many traditional songs call for His coming, songs still sung to this very day and known by practically every Jew.
Anyway, Yeshua simply means salvation, and I am sure when He returns again like He promised, all awaiting for the Messiah will recognize Him, like Joseph's brothers recognized him when he revealed himself to them.
The Mesorah deals with questioning and elaborating on the Torah. So if things are unclear, it would be explained in the Oral Tradition.
Prophecies are hidden but there are sages to explain them. I have to say your Yeshua theory is not very welcomed by the sages and wasn't embraced by any of the Greats.
God's grace to the gentiles? God doesn't need Yeshua to shower His grace to the gentiles.
Jews believe in the Messiah, yes, but the Messiah is not going to be God. -
Yes, I know not an actual person like you or me, but they imply that God is made up of 3 distincts beings, the Holy Spirit being one such being. I'm not sure if there are any scriptures to back this up...Originally posted by Icemoon:No la, the "person" is a theological term, not your layman definition of it.
The Mesorah deals with questioning and elaborating on the Torah. So if things are unclear, it would be explained in the Oral Tradition.
Prophecies are hidden but there are sages to explain them. I have to say your Yeshua theory is not very welcomed by the sages and wasn't embraced by any of the Greats.
God's grace to the gentiles? God doesn't need Yeshua to shower His grace to the gentiles.
Jews believe in the Messiah, yes, but the Messiah is not going to be God.
Grace to the gentiles was for salvation which was never available to them unless they embraced the God of Israel and attached themselves to His people and His ways.
One of Yeshua's main roles this time was to abolish the penalty for Adam's original sin, being eternal death.
As to the Messiah being God, He is called amongst other names, el gibbor -
The Mesorah doesn't have all the answers either...Originally posted by Icemoon:The Mesorah deals with questioning and elaborating on the Torah. So if things are unclear, it would be explained in the Oral Tradition.
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The Oral Tradition has the answers.Originally posted by Yaffa:The Mesorah doesn't have all the answers either...
If the whole Jewish literature don't, then don't bother, the question probably isn't important anyway.