G_d three distinct persons?? Really??
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Each entity of the Trinity is distinct. Are you saying they are not distinct? Sounds a bit like docetism liao.Originally posted by Yaffa:Yes, I know not an actual person like you or me, but they imply that God is made up of 3 distincts beings, the Holy Spirit being one such being. I'm not sure if there are any scriptures to back this up...
Grace to the gentiles was for salvation which was never available to them unless they embraced the God of Israel and attached themselves to His people and His ways.
One of Yeshua's main roles this time was to abolish the penalty for Adam's original sin, being eternal death.
As to the Messiah being God, He is called amongst other names, el gibbor
For gentiles, yes they should embrace the God of Israel, at least we see this in the OT. But to attach themselves to His people and His ways, I don't think so.
The Jews do not believe in original sin. If you take that Yeshua is the atonement, nope the Jews do not believe in that also. -
If not the ways of Hashem, then whose? We are worshipping the G_D of the Jews, and in the end, there will be a new Jerusalem and He will establish His throne in Zion.Originally posted by Icemoon:Each entity of the Trinity is distinct. Are you saying they are not distinct? Sounds a bit like docetism liao.
For gentiles, yes they should embrace the God of Israel, at least we see this in the OT. But to attach themselves to His people and His ways, I don't think so.
The Jews do not believe in original sin. If you take that Yeshua is the atonement, nope the Jews do not believe in that also.
There are many passages in the bible that say that Hashem expects us to know His ways and His commandments, are you saying the goyim are exempt? Then they have no part in the Kingdom to come. IF they do not want to be like Yeshua, who is the image of Hashem, then they are not His firstborn because they do not go about their Father's business... -
Oh, sorry... I wasn't expecting you to think I believe in the trinity doctrine... no scripture to back that up at all...Originally posted by Icemoon:Each entity of the Trinity is distinct. Are you saying they are not distinct? Sounds a bit like docetism liao.
For gentiles, yes they should embrace the God of Israel, at least we see this in the OT. But to attach themselves to His people and His ways, I don't think so.
The Jews do not believe in original sin. If you take that Yeshua is the atonement, nope the Jews do not believe in that also.
Throughout scripture, the only way gentiles could embrace the God of Israel is indeed to join His people and His ways.
You may be mistaken about Jews not believing in original sin and atonement, maybe not in those exact terms, but to the Jews as described in the scriptures, every sin requires atonement. I'm sure you know there are many sects and differing opinions amongst the Jews themselves, so to generalize the various views may be quite tough. -
Yes, there are scripture to back up the trinity doctrine. This is agreed by both Catholics and Protestants.Originally posted by Yaffa:Oh, sorry... I wasn't expecting you to think I believe in the trinity doctrine... no scripture to back that up at all...
Throughout scripture, the only way gentiles could embrace the God of Israel is indeed to join His people and His ways.
You may be mistaken about Jews not believing in original sin and atonement, maybe not in those exact terms, but to the Jews as described in the scriptures, every sin requires atonement. I'm sure you know there are many sects and differing opinions amongst the Jews themselves, so to generalize the various views may be quite tough.
Join His people and His ways? Not true. Did Jonah tell the Ninevians to convert to Judaism? Actually the God of Israel does not seek to convert to the religion of His people (i.e. His ways), He seeks to convert pagans of His existence and that other gods are false.
Every sin requires atonement? Not true. How do they atone during the first diaspora? Furthermore it is written quite clearly that atonement is only used for the less serious kind of sins.
Many sects and differing opinions .. yes .. but I have to say Messianic Jews who believe in Yeshua are never the majority opinion. In fact, it is not a belief shared by any of the sages. -
which one?Originally posted by Icemoon:Yes, there are scripture to back up the trinity doctrine. This is agreed by both Catholics and Protestants.
Join His people and His ways? Not true. Did Jonah tell the Ninevians to convert to Judaism? Actually the God of Israel does not seek to convert to the religion of His people (i.e. His ways), He seeks to convert pagans of His existence and that other gods are false.
Even when Yeshua was talking about the Father and Himself. He referred to them as one. But no where does Yeshua ever mention that He and the Ruach are one. Don't you think that this is a very very big oversight on the part of Yeshua?
also, when Jonah went to Nineveh, he brought a message of destruction for the sins of the city... yet because of his message, they whole city shooved, repented and cried out to Yahweh for mercy. Did they turn to Judiasm? Not sure, because Judiasm today is not the way of Hashem as we know from the Holy Scriptures. But they did Teshuva back to Hashem. -
The one refers to the unity.Originally posted by breytonhartge:which one?
Even when Yeshua was talking about the Father and Himself. He referred to them as one. But no where does Yeshua ever mention that He and the Ruach are one. Don't you think that this is a very very big oversight on the part of Yeshua?
also, when Jonah went to Nineveh, he brought a message of destruction for the sins of the city... yet because of his message, they whole city shooved, repented and cried out to Yahweh for mercy. Did they turn to Judiasm? Not sure, because Judiasm today is not the way of Hashem as we know from the Holy Scriptures. But they did Teshuva back to Hashem.
Hah? I beg your pardon? You seems like you know Judaism more like the practising Jews.
How come you read the Holy Scripture you can know the Judaism today is not the same as yesterday?
In a sense, Judaism today is not the same as yester-years. We now have Messianic Jews who believe in Yeshua, so it is obviously different already. Furthermore with the destruction of the Temple, it cannot be the same as the one in the Holy Scriptures.
But the essence is still the same, if you embrace the Oral Tradition that elaborates on the Torah.
You are not even sure of the Nineveh case, so you have no right to claim (like Yaffa) that the goyim must embrace Hashem and His ways to receive salvation. -
In short .. show me a prophet that preaches to the goyim to ask them to embrace Hashem and His ways.
In fact, such a message is discouraged, as seen in the example of Naomi dissuading her daughters in law to convert to Judaism.
The example of Naomi also indicates embracing the ways of Hashem is not mandatory for salvation. -
Lots of verses refer to unity, please state the exact verse. Thanks.Originally posted by Icemoon:The one refers to the unity.
Hah? I beg your pardon? You seems like you know Judaism more like the practising Jews. How come you read the Holy Scripture you can know the Judaism today is not the same as yesterday?
In a sense, Judaism today is not the same as yester-years. We now have Messianic Jews who believe in Yeshua, so it is obviously different already. Furthermore with the destruction of the Temple, it cannot be the same as the one in the Holy Scriptures.
But the essence is still the same, if you embrace the Oral Tradition that elaborates on the Torah.
You are not even sure of the Nineveh case, so you have no right to claim (like Yaffa) that the goyim must embrace Hashem and His ways to receive salvation.
For goyim to become saved, it is Hashem's way in the Holy Scriptures that they would become part of Israel, and we know that Yahweh is the same yesterday, today and forever, so would this requirement change? -
In the Holy Scriptures, the prophets like Yeshua were only sent to the house of Israel and Judah, salvation was never for the goyim. Yet have you not read Isaiah 56?Originally posted by Icemoon:In short .. show me a prophet that preaches to the goyim to ask them to embrace Hashem and His ways.
In fact, such a message is discouraged, as seen in the example of Naomi dissuading her daughters in law to convert to Judaism.
The example of Naomi also indicates embracing the ways of Hashem is not mandatory for salvation.
Isaiah 56:1-8
Salvation for the Gentiles
1 Thus says the LORD:
“ Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the LORD
Speak, saying,
“ The LORD has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“ Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the LORD:
“ To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them[a] an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.
6 “ Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“ Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.” -
Isaiah 56 speaks of how goyim are to be when they become one with Yahweh. They keep His covenants, they love His name and they keep His Shabbat. Did Yahweh change this? No.
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Darn .. asking me to defend something I don't really believe?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Lots of verses refer to unity, please state the exact verse. Thanks. -
Jews are to be a light for all nations.Originally posted by breytonhartge:For goyim to become saved, it is Hashem's way in the Holy Scriptures that they would become part of Israel, and we know that Yahweh is the same yesterday, today and forever, so would this requirement change?
This doesn't mean the plan is for them to become part of Israel.
Stop using 'Yahweh'. The Jews don't use it, so why are you using it? -
Did Jonah tell the Ninevians to convert to Judaism?Originally posted by Icemoon:Yes, there are scripture to back up the trinity doctrine. This is agreed by both Catholics and Protestants.
Join His people and His ways? Not true. Did Jonah tell the Ninevians to convert to Judaism? Actually the God of Israel does not seek to convert to the religion of His people (i.e. His ways), He seeks to convert pagans of His existence and that other gods are false.
Every sin requires atonement? Not true. How do they atone during the first diaspora? Furthermore it is written quite clearly that atonement is only used for the less serious kind of sins.
Many sects and differing opinions .. yes .. but I have to say Messianic Jews who believe in Yeshua are never the majority opinion. In fact, it is not a belief shared by any of the sages.
Icey,
actually, I find using the account of Jonah is not a good idea, if one were to read the whole book, we can find the from the very begining, Jonah do not want the Ninevians saved.
why do I say so?
1) Historically, the Ninevians are the enemy of the Isreal (more like oppressors)
From Biblical account
2) Jonah's relectant to go (he ran away from God)
3) The instructions was to go there and tell the Ninevians about God's judgement on them, and instead of going every part of the city to do it, he spend one day (to cover in city, not sure how much of the huge city can he cover in one day)
4) after that, he actually went up a hill over looking the city, and want to sit there 'watch how they die'Jonah 4
Jonah's Anger at the Lord 's Compassion
1 But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."
4 But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?"
5 Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the LORD God provided a vine and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the vine. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah's head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, "It would be better for me to die than to live."
9 But God said to Jonah, "Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?"
"I do," he said. "I am angry enough to die."
10 But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?" -
The issue is not what Jonah would have done, but what God wants Jonah to do.Originally posted by vince69:Icey,
actually, I find using the account of Jonah is not a good idea, if one were to read the whole book, we can find the from the very begining, Jonah do not want the Ninevians saved.
why do I say so?
1) Historically, the Ninevians are the enemy of the Isreal (more like oppressors)
From Biblical account
2) Jonah's relectant to go (he ran away from God)
3) The instructions was to go there and tell the Ninevians about God's judgement on them, and instead of going every part of the city to do it, he spend one day (to cover in city, not sure how much of the huge city can he cover in one day)
4) after that, he actually went up a hill over looking the city, and want to sit there 'watch how they die'
In other words, what is the will of God? -
The thing I am pointing is, Jonah is not really want to follow God's instruction entirely. ie, he have a different agenda from God and also want a different outcome.Originally posted by Icemoon:The issue is not what Jonah would have done, but what God wants Jonah to do.
In other words, what is the will of God?
all in all, I am not here to dispute either side's argument, just want to point out that the account of Jonah is a weak example, thats all...
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Actually it is a good example.Originally posted by vince69:all in all, I am not here to dispute either side's argument, just want to point out that the account of Jonah is a weak example, thats all...
Because we only need to concentrate on what God *told* Jonah to do. Whether Jonah executed the instructions is irrelevant. -
but the thing is, the argument put forth isOriginally posted by Icemoon:Actually it is a good example.
Because we only need to concentrate on what God *told* Jonah to do. Whether Jonah executed the instructions is irrelevant.
"Did Jonah tell the Ninevians to convert to Judaism? "
which is on what did Jonah do/not do. -
Actually I always use this question to challenge people like Brey and Skibi.Originally posted by vince69:but the thing is, the argument put forth is
"Did Jonah tell the Ninevians to convert to Judaism? "
which is on what did Jonah do/not do.
Sometimes I say "did God tell Jonah to tell the Ninevians ..".
Maybe I said that to Skibi. After all Brey should know what I'm trying to put across. -
Ok, maybe I am the one who failed to get the idea...Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually I always use this question to challenge people like Brey and Skibi.
Sometimes I say "did God tell Jonah to tell the Ninevians ..".
Maybe I said that to Skibi. After all Brey should know what I'm trying to put across.
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Don't worry. At least I know the omission could lead to misunderstanding.Originally posted by vince69:Ok, maybe I am the one who failed to get the idea... -
Then could you explain your understanding of Isaiah 56? It is clearly stated that for those goyim who call upon Hashem and who follow His ways, and His covenants, they will be part of Israel and they will be given an everlasting name. How else does one who believes in Hashem find community which is like minded? Definitely not by being with goyim, who are idolaters, fornicators and the like...Originally posted by Icemoon:Jews are to be a light for all nations.
This doesn't mean the plan is for them to become part of Israel.
Stop using 'Yahweh'. The Jews don't use it, so why are you using it? -
I never dispute your understanding of Yeshayahu. It makes sense to me.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Then could you explain your understanding of Isaiah 56? It is clearly stated that for those goyim who call upon Hashem and who follow His ways, and His covenants, they will be part of Israel and they will be given an everlasting name. How else does one who believes in Hashem find community which is like minded? Definitely not by being with goyim, who are idolaters, fornicators and the like... -
so what are you trying to say exactly?Originally posted by Icemoon:I never dispute your understanding of Yeshayahu. It makes sense to me.
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Conversion is unnecessary and discouraged.Originally posted by breytonhartge:so what are you trying to say exactly? -
the point here is not about coversion, but about following the ways of Hashem which one can do without coverting.Originally posted by Icemoon:Conversion is unnecessary and discouraged.