Kefa (Peter's) vision about the sheet and the food...
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was trying to be devil's advocate .. but seems like I failed.Originally posted by breytonhartge:I know you are pro Jewish... so why all the fuss?
Anyway my personal view is this:
God has set aside some animals to be unclean so I guess He must have His reasons. Perhaps health reasons?
I stick to the Jewish stance on gentiles. Gentiles need not obey, nor can they obey, the mitzvahs. But this is not to say you can't set aside one day for rest (Sabbath law) or stick to clean food (kosher laws). After all, why would God stop you from doing beneficial things?
But to be gentile and live like a Jew is just not very right. This won't add to your rewards at all. In fact, you could be chastised for mis-interpreting the Torah.
I'm heartened to know that according to Judaism, the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come.
Glory be to Hashem. -
Just like when we instructs our children, we tries to use words/illustrations that they can understand. This shows how good God is to us, that He is willing to comes down to our level of understanding/interest and speak to us, that we may understand Him.Originally posted by Yaffa:Haha, you may have something there! While he became hungry and saw the vision, his meal, which was already being prepared for him, was a kosher one for sure, so no need for God to warn him about his upcoming meal!
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failure is but a stepping stone to success...Originally posted by Icemoon:was trying to be devil's advocate .. but seems like I failed.
Anyway my personal view is this:
God has set aside some animals to be unclean so I guess He must have His reasons. Perhaps health reasons?
I stick to the Jewish stance on gentiles. Gentiles need not obey, nor can they obey, the mitzvahs. But this is not to say you can't set aside one day for rest (Sabbath law) or stick to clean food (kosher laws). After all, why would God stop you from doing beneficial things?
But to be gentile and live like a Jew is just not very right. This won't add to your rewards at all. In fact, you could be chastised for mis-interpreting the Torah.
I'm heartened to know that according to Judaism, the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come.
Glory be to Hashem.
My personal view is that once we become believers through Yeshua, we are part of the commonwealth of Israel, so therefore need to understand and learn the ways of our Father, the G_d of the Israelites. It is important otherwise how do we know how to conduct ourselves in the new world to come? It will be operated on the ways of Hashem, whom He gave for all generations. We are sons and daughters, adopted as spiritual. Whilst we goyim may not need to learn these things intially, it is expected that we progress beyong our inital baby stage and grow and mature in our faith. Otherwise why would Yeshua say keep the commandments? I think it is speaking to the goyim also.
Even in the Holy Scriptures, it was not forbidden for foreigners to keep shabbat or to become part of Israel, by adopting the customs and ways of the Jewish people.
But yes, GLORY to HASHEM!! -
Yeshua said keep the commandments .. but his audience then were Jewish. You cannot apply them to gentiles. Even Kefa and Shaul were Jews .. you cannot simply adopt their Jewish practices.Originally posted by breytonhartge:failure is but a stepping stone to success...
My personal view is that once we become believers through Yeshua, we are part of the commonwealth of Israel, so therefore need to understand and learn the ways of our Father, the G_d of the Israelites. It is important otherwise how do we know how to conduct ourselves in the new world to come? It will be operated on the ways of Hashem, whom He gave for all generations. We are sons and daughters, adopted as spiritual. Whilst we goyim may not need to learn these things intially, it is expected that we progress beyong our inital baby stage and grow and mature in our faith. Otherwise why would Yeshua say keep the commandments? I think it is speaking to the goyim also.
Even in the Holy Scriptures, it was not forbidden for foreigners to keep shabbat or to become part of Israel, by adopting the customs and ways of the Jewish people.
But yes, GLORY to HASHEM!!
In the Holy Scriptures, the mitzvah to keep the Shabbath was given to the Israelites and Israelites only. Conversion is discouraged, as seen in the account of Ruth. Naomi, in fact, tried to "chase" her away.
I don't buy the spiritual descendants argument. It is not spelt out in the Old Testament. -
But Ruth did not go away, she stayed. See my other thread on the being part of the commonwealth of Israel.Originally posted by Icemoon:Yeshua said keep the commandments .. but his audience then were Jewish. You cannot apply them to gentiles. Even Kefa and Shaul were Jews .. you cannot simply adopt their Jewish practices.
In the Holy Scriptures, the mitzvah to keep the Shabbath was given to the Israelites and Israelites only. Conversion is discouraged, as seen in the account of Ruth. Naomi, in fact, tried to "chase" her away.
I don't buy the spiritual descendants argument. It is not spelt out in the Old Testament. -
Yes, she did not go away, very noble of her. This shows that conversion is not forbidden.Originally posted by breytonhartge:But Ruth did not go away, she stayed. See my other thread on the being part of the commonwealth of Israel.
But the action of Naomi also show that conversion is discouraged. It is not as easy as uttering Jesus' name to receive salvation. -
Yeshua is but the beginning of the journey of salvation. We still must shoov back to Hashem, to turn back to His ways, we only find out what His ways are in the Holy Scriptures.Originally posted by Icemoon:Yes, she did not go away, very noble of her. This shows that conversion is not forbidden.
But the action of Naomi also show that conversion is discouraged. It is not as easy as uttering Jesus' name to receive salvation. -
Shalom again! So glad you posted this. Conversion is even till today not encouraged, meaning Jews are not required to go out and make converts at all. However, if one proved so sincere in wanting to follow the God of Israel, then he or she is welcomed with open arms and accepted as one of them after proving his or her sincerity (this may take up to several years of studying, etc...). Hence Ruth's complete acceptance into the community to such an extent that Yeshua's lineage is traced back to Ruth.Originally posted by Icemoon:Yes, she did not go away, very noble of her. This shows that conversion is not forbidden.
But the action of Naomi also show that conversion is discouraged. It is not as easy as uttering Jesus' name to receive salvation.
However, Yeshua's command to His disciples were to make disciples of Him, not go out and make people confess His Name and believe they are thus saved. This is deceptive to say the least and results in countless so-called "backsliders"...
If we believe in Yeshua, then we have to become His disciples, meaning imitating Him in everyway, and through Him, we do indeed have full inheritance in Israel and the Torah and rights to the blessings mentioned in it, the same way as anyone who makes it known they are wholeheartedly following and worshipping the God of Israel. -
Shalom,
very sorry, I am not able to understand this part
cause I also believed that believe in Yeshua will have eternal life, ererlasting life cause He was the world through Him might be saved.Originally posted by Yaffa:However, Yeshua's command to His disciples were to make disciples of Him, not go out and make people confess His Name and believe they are thus saved. This is deceptive to say the least and results in countless so-called "backsliders"...John3:13-17 (NKJV)
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. -
Shalom! Sorry for not being more precise...Originally posted by vince69:Shalom,
very sorry, I am not able to understand this part
What I mean is that when evangelising, it is not good enough to tell people to simply confess the Name of the Lord, say some "sinner's prayer" and tell them they are now going to "heaven" instead of "hell". The great majority of these people will continue living life as they always have with little or no changes made as they were not taught that repentance is the essence of salvation.
Believing in the Lord does indeed save, however, in order for one to truly believe, they have first to hear about who our Lord really is and what it is they have done to offend God that requires repentance.
By not explaining accurately what sin and repentance means, it is hard for one to turn away from what they were doing that was offensive to God and go God's way instead.
Hope that's clearer...
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Shalom ...Originally posted by Yaffa:Shalom! Sorry for not being more precise...
What I mean is that when evangelising, it is not good enough to tell people to simply confess the Name of the Lord, say some "sinner's prayer" and tell them they are now going to "heaven" instead of "hell". The great majority of these people will continue living life as they always have with little or no changes made as they were not taught that repentance is the essence of salvation.
Believing in the Lord does indeed save, however, in order for one to truly believe, they have first to hear about who our Lord really is and what it is they have done to offend God that requires repentance.
By not explaining accurately what sin and repentance means, it is hard for one to turn away from what they were doing that was offensive to God and go God's way instead.
Hope that's clearer...
Yes, I do agree in life transformation, but I also believed that its the Lord that gives us this grace as in life transformation is a gift of grace also.
This is what I believed about the essence of salvation
1) Its who the Lord Jesus is, what He had done to brought us this salvation, that whoever believed in Him will have salvation
2) After being wash clean and made righteous by His eternal blood, we now have fellowship of God and received the Holy Spirit.
3) With this life giving, life transforming grace we received from God and with the help and guildance of the Holy Spirit, only then can we really have our life transformed from being rebellious to obedience.
different people have different type of struggles, we really cannot tell what they are struggling with, but the Holy Spirit that searched the heart will know.
The only way to really remove those deep roots of sin is throught Christ.
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vince, how do you address the point that Yaffa made in regards to christians living the same lives without much change... I think it is a very valid point as many christians don't change much except go to church on sundays and do what they have always done...
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The things is this, many times we expect the change to be fast, yes, sometimes changes can happen very fast, but other times to other people, it happen slowly...Originally posted by breytonhartge:vince, how do you address the point that Yaffa made in regards to christians living the same lives without much change... I think it is a very valid point as many christians don't change much except go to church on sundays and do what they have always done...
why am I saying this?
old habit dies hard, yes, the older the harder, but not never die, just take longer...
yes, there are those who accept Christ like a fire issurance, to these, I am not even sure if they had believed
but there are those who changes are so subtle that others just don't notices, to this, its changes a little bit by a little bit.
How do we differentiate? to be honest, we can't really tell, so we can only leave it to God... the only one God had us accounted for, is for ourself. cheers -
Maybe you should ask the question - have they truly invited Christ into their life?Originally posted by breytonhartge:vince, how do you address the point that Yaffa made in regards to christians living the same lives without much change... I think it is a very valid point as many christians don't change much except go to church on sundays and do what they have always done...
And do they embrace the theology of the cross or the theology of glory? -
Romans 10 say one mah.Originally posted by Yaffa:What I mean is that when evangelising, it is not good enough to tell people to simply confess the Name of the Lord, say some "sinner's prayer" and tell them they are now going to "heaven" instead of "hell".
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care to expound on the two theologies?Originally posted by Icemoon:Maybe you should ask the question - have they truly invited Christ into their life?
And do they embrace the theology of the cross or the theology of glory?
must you always get so cheem icy... -
all it says is if you confess with you mouth Yeshua, and believe in you heart that Yahweh raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. But the logical question follows:Originally posted by Icemoon:Romans 10 say one mah.
What does it mean to be saved? What is the correct idea of salvation. The christian one sure is very wishy washy.... -
They came from Luther - classical protestant theology.Originally posted by breytonhartge:care to expound on the two theologies?
must you always get so cheem icy...
Actually Luther got his theology from the Apostle Paul and his actions. So if you understand how Paul views the Cross and salvation, you have got it. -
You not Christian ah?Originally posted by breytonhartge:What does it mean to be saved? What is the correct idea of salvation. The christian one sure is very wishy washy....
Edit: removed unfriendly words -
no I am a believer...Originally posted by Icemoon:You not Christian ah?
Edit: removed unfriendly words
say unfriendly words....
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Originally posted by Icemoon:Romans 10 say one mah.
But seriously, Romans 10 says:
"For whoever shall call on upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall the hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent?... So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God..."
Yeshua is not even preached for who He really is, so how is one to truly believe in Him? And it all starts with hearing which comes by the Word of God. Many "preachers" don't even preach the Word of God these days, that's what is of concern. -
Have to say, I do agree with Yaffa on this...Originally posted by Yaffa:
But seriously, Romans 10 says:
"For whoever shall call on upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall the hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent?... So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God..."
Yeshua is not even preached for who He really is, so how is one to truly believe in Him? And it all starts with hearing which comes by the Word of God. Many "preachers" don't even preach the Word of God these days, that's what is of concern. -
I think we are talking about 2 things here essentially: salvation and sanctification.Originally posted by vince69:Shalom ...
Yes, I do agree in life transformation, but I also believed that its the Lord that gives us this grace as in life transformation is a gift of grace also.
This is what I believed about the essence of salvation
1) Its who the Lord Jesus is, what He had done to brought us this salvation, that whoever believed in Him will have salvation
2) After being wash clean and made righteous by His eternal blood, we now have fellowship of God and received the Holy Spirit.
3) With this life giving, life transforming grace we received from God and with the help and guildance of the Holy Spirit, only then can we really have our life transformed from being rebellious to obedience.
different people have different type of struggles, we really cannot tell what they are struggling with, but the Holy Spirit that searched the heart will know.
The only way to really remove those deep roots of sin is throught Christ.
Salvation from eternal death, which was the punishment for man's original sin, is God's free gift to all who will accept it. Grace is given so that we have a chance to repent (turn back to following God's ways), not grace to continue sinning.
Sanctification is obtained through works or efforts on our part which follow salvation. Sanctification can only come through the cleansing by the water of the Word, revealing the roots of sin and is an essentially part of salvation. It is how we grow and mature as a believer.
I agree that we need the Holy Spirit to open up God's Word to us and to lead and guide us, but we also need to know what we are rebelling against, otherwise there can be no obedience as we won't know what to be obedient to.
God's Word tells us what pleases Him and what is acceptable to Him. We can only be sure if what the Spirit prompts us is of God or not through His Word, or else we could simply be guided by feelings.
Am I making any sense...??
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Back to the point of them not being able to truly believe since Christ was not accurately preached to them, that's why once they "accept the Lord", they don't know where to go from there, probably don't even know what they did to displease or sin against God since His laws and commandments are not taught to them. How then to explain what Christ did for them?Originally posted by Icemoon:Maybe you should ask the question - have they truly invited Christ into their life?
And do they embrace the theology of the cross or the theology of glory? -
I suspect you are not.Originally posted by Yaffa:Am I making any sense...??
It sounds suspiciously like the theology of glory which Luther was criticising.