Should Christians Celebrate Easter?
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During the time of Yeshua's birth, Yosef his father would have been in a Sukkah, not in a manger... and his mother would have been with him there.Originally posted by Icemoon:Sukkah is the tent-house outside the real house right? A booth. -
You said "would have" .. meaning you also guess guess only?Originally posted by breytonhartge:During the time of Yeshua's birth, Yosef his father would have been in a Sukkah, not in a manger... and his mother would have been with him there.
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and we are certain he was born in a manger? english translation could be wrong you know...Originally posted by Icemoon:You said "would have" .. meaning you also guess guess only? 
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No, there is no verse in the Bible in which God commands us to keep 40 days of mourning before Pesach. However, it is interesting that we see the number 40 very often in the Bible. Jesus fasted for 40 days, the Israelites were in the desert for 40 years, Nineveh was given forty days to repent.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Yeshua spent 40 days in the desert at the START of His ministry. How is this connected all the way to His death and ressurection at Pesach?
Find me a verse in the bible in which Hashem commands us to keep 40 days of mourning before Pesach?
Yeshua did not spend 40 days fasting and then suddenly get crucified...
It is plain from what you have posted that this pagan ritual has indeed been assimilated by the church under the guise of imitating Yeshua's suffering in the desert, but what has this got to do with Pesach?
Irregardless, Jesus did not get crucified immediately, but the fast in the desert was before he began his public ministry, culminating in His death on the Cross. Lent is the ChristianÂ’s way of understanding these mysteries.
The names of the days of the week are also pagan-influenced. Everyday is a sinful day then? For example, Thursday is derived from ThorÂ’s day. You know who that is so I shanÂ’t educate you once more.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Easter is a derivative of the name of the goddess Ishtar. Can you have a christian Ishtar? Which is an idol? The mere use of the word Easter is in itself an allusion to paganism and pagan gods. Which is that which was expressly forbidden by Hashem. You shall worship no other gods...
A christian easter? Is this a joke? Taking a pagan ritual and assimilating it into the church and repackaging it in "new material" ie in the guise of Yeshua still does not make it acceptable to Yaweh. If easter is christian, then why is the easter celebration followed by the church so much like the practices that they held for Tammuz? Yeshua most certainly did not have anything in common with this and with easter that is celebrated in the church today.
What happened to Pesach? Why is it that we have to create a new festival to honour our LORD's death when there is alreay one to commorate it? One which we are commanded to observe? Refer to Exodus Chapter 12.
We can find also from the new testament that Yeshua was crucified during passover and as you have rightly said that Yeshua is our passover lamb, so therefore Pesach is the correct celebration for this time. Why does the church not keep it??
When Easter was first being celebrated, nobody called it Easter. It was called Pascha. And it still is. Therefore even if it Easter is a pagan word, it does not matter because Pascha is not about celebrating any pagan god.
Do tell us how the celebration of the Jewish Pesach commemorates the death of Our Lord. I cannot see it. What I see is that this festival has been recreated into Pascha by incorporating the paschal mystery of the Lord. Pascha is the celebration of the paschal mystery of Christ. It IS our Passover.
Old Covenant = Covenant made between God and Moses, where God gives the people of Israel the Ten Commandments, and the Mosaic Laws.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Quick question, what is the Old Covenant and what is the New Covenant?
New Covenant = A new covenant, resulting in a new Law where God will send the Holy Sprit to all people through faith in Jesus Christ, thus making perfect the foundation set up by the Old Covenant.
This is what Mother Church teaches. Paragraph 1968 of the Catechism states ‘The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure,22 where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.23 ‘Originally posted by breytonhartge:How are you observing Pesach by observing easter? Pesach began sundown last night, but easter is celebrated on friday... where is the connection? The most important days of Pesach are the first and the last days, it lasts for 7 days. The way easter is celebrated is no where near the way Pesach is celebrated. The church has already missed Pesach.
What we do daily is important, but that is not the crux of this debate. We are concerned with the public and communal celebration of the mysteries of Christ.Originally posted by breytonhartge:If you want to celebrate the birthday of Yeshua at least do it in the right time? During the Feast of Tabernacles... not dec25?!
The question is not what are we doing yearly to remember all of this, is what do we do daily to remind us of all Yeshua has done for us?
Since Jesus Christ has given Mother Church the power to bind and loose, His successors have the power and responsibility of determining the customs and laws of the Church. ThatÂ’s how we have Christmas, and Sunday as the holy day. In any case we gladly follow.
Furthermore God has granted the privilege of the Holy Spirit to guide the Apostles and their successors. Does the Spirit fail? No. Therefore it is in this confidence that we follow the leaders of the Church.
I was wondering, why do you insist that it must be during the Feast of Tabernacles? Do you know JesusÂ’ real birthdate? We donÂ’t claim to do so. It is just an estimate.
I believe we have different perceptions here. You see it as Christianity being corrupted by paganism. We see it as Christianity conquering paganism by making their pagan festival unrecognizable. And we ultimately have succeeded in conquering paganism.Originally posted by breytonhartge:It is not wrong to explain it to the pagans in their own terms, but it BECOMES wrong when the pagan customs are absorbed into our belief system. Even in OT times, the people of Yahweh were warned about associating with different religions and mixing them with their worship of Hashem. How so is this different now? Are we not Yahweh's people? Does not this warning apply to us as well? So why don't we follow?
WhoÂ’s being unbiblical now? =POriginally posted by breytonhartge:and we are certain he was born in a manger? english translation could be wrong you know...
As a parting shot, I will leave you to read the Acts of the Apostles Chapter 15.
Mosaic Law has been abolished; moral laws have been made perfect by the New Law. Christianity has professed this for the past thousand years. I donÂ’t know why your Torah-observant movement is trying to re-invent the wheel. These ideas are recent innovations. Furthermore it does not help that you quote crap such as Alexander Hislop, whom is discredited even by Protestants. Stop misleading the faithful.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." -
SgMac, will get back to you tomorrow... I hope. Have to finish my submission for the National Art Gallery Competition... thanks for your reply... shalom!
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Wow. Good luck with that!!Originally posted by breytonhartge:SgMac, will get back to you tomorrow... I hope. Have to finish my submission for the National Art Gallery Competition... thanks for your reply... shalom!
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so when is the actual "christmas" and "good friday" in the view of the thread starter?
I know the Latter Day Saints have their own ideas of christmas and good friday.... so i wanna see how many versions there are....
Thanks! -
Thank you... just finished all the drawings and reports... am having them printed as we speak... haven't slept for 4 days... now to catch some zzzzzz and I will get back to you soon... apologies...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Wow. Good luck with that!! 
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4 DAYS! yikes!!!Originally posted by breytonhartge:Thank you... just finished all the drawings and reports... am having them printed as we speak... haven't slept for 4 days... now to catch some zzzzzz and I will get back to you soon... apologies...
quickly go and koon. -
There is NO christmas.Originally posted by gasband:so when is the actual "christmas" and "good friday" in the view of the thread starter?
I know the Latter Day Saints have their own ideas of christmas and good friday.... so i wanna see how many versions there are....
Thanks!
There is also no good friday. Yeshua died on the eve of passover. -
Then you would have to agree that this is then more akin to the 40 days of mourning for tammuz the sun god rather... so more pagan in origin. It is clear where this tradition originates from.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:No, there is no verse in the Bible in which God commands us to keep 40 days of mourning before Pesach. However, it is interesting that we see the number 40 very often in the Bible. Jesus fasted for 40 days, the Israelites were in the desert for 40 years, Nineveh was given forty days to repent.
Irregardless, Jesus did not get crucified immediately, but the fast in the desert was before he began his public ministry, culminating in His death on the Cross. Lent is the ChristianÂ’s way of understanding these mysteries.
Your explanation of it is very stretching.
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But the church celebrates Pesach on the wrong day. It is not even when it is supposed to be celebrated. Yeshua Himself celebrated Passover on the same day that the Jewish people kept it, so why has the church seen fit to change the day? Let us go back to Exodus when Yahweh Himself gave the commandment to keep the passover. Exodus 12:14 onwards...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:The names of the days of the week are also pagan-influenced. Everyday is a sinful day then? For example, Thursday is derived from ThorÂ’s day. You know who that is so I shanÂ’t educate you once more.
When Easter was first being celebrated, nobody called it Easter. It was called Pascha. And it still is. Therefore even if it Easter is a pagan word, it does not matter because Pascha is not about celebrating any pagan god.
Do tell us how the celebration of the Jewish Pesach commemorates the death of Our Lord. I cannot see it. What I see is that this festival has been recreated into Pascha by incorporating the paschal mystery of the Lord. Pascha is the celebration of the paschal mystery of Christ. It IS our Passover.
This day shall be to you for a memorial; and you shall keep it a feast to the LORD thoroughout your generations shall you keep it a feast by ordinance forever. Seven day shall you eat unleavened bread, but on the first day there shall be a holy gathering, and on the seventh day there shall be a holy gathering to you; no manner of work shall be done on them... you shall observe the commandment of unleavened bread; for on this very day have I brought your hosts out of Mizrayim: therefore shall you observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. In the first month on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread...
Going by what Yahweh commanded, the church does not celebrate Passover on the 14th day of the first month of Aviv which is counted on a lunar calendar... they do not even observe that the first and the seventh days are sabbaths where no work ought to be done. They also do not observe the seven days of no leaven. So how can you even say that this is close to passover as Yeshua would have celebrated it.
Before His death Yeshua had the passover meal and He broke the bread and the wine and said do this in remembrance of Him.
This is how passover reminds us of the death of Yeshua. He is our passover lamb as rightly said by you, and Mizrayim (egypt) is a symbol of sin both in the spiritual and physical sense, therefore every year when we celebrate passover, we remember that Yahweh is the one that brought us out of sin. The passover lamb was always killed between the evening of the 14th day and the 15th day, and likewise Yeshua was killed on 3pm on the 15th day, before sundown. -
up and awake now...Originally posted by Chin Eng:4 DAYS! yikes!!!
quickly go and koon. but today still very sleepy... -
Believing in Yeshua is not about conquering paganism, its about turning away from it and turning aside from it and about putting is aside and not absorbing it into our belief system to render it unrecognisable.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:I believe we have different perceptions here. You see it as Christianity being corrupted by paganism. We see it as Christianity conquering paganism by making their pagan festival unrecognizable. And we ultimately have succeeded in conquering paganism. -
Hebrews 8:8... "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and withe the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Mizrayim; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Old Covenant = Covenant made between God and Moses, where God gives the people of Israel the Ten Commandments, and the Mosaic Laws.
New Covenant = A new covenant, resulting in a new Law where God will send the Holy Sprit to all people through faith in Jesus Christ, thus making perfect the foundation set up by the Old Covenant.
This is what Mother Church teaches. Paragraph 1968 of the Catechism states ‘The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure,22 where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.23 ‘
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, days the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people.
This new covenant is with the House of Judah and Israel, if we are not part of Judah or Israel, we have no covenant with Hashem.
New covenant does not mean new law, it is the same law but written on our hearts rather than on stone. -
Why was the day changed from Saturday to sunday? because of fear of reprisals on the Jews who knew Messiah, because of the persecution of the Jewish people. The new gentile converts were afraid and wanted to distance themselves from everything Jewish... hence they changed the day and it was finally made law by constantine.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:What we do daily is important, but that is not the crux of this debate. We are concerned with the public and communal celebration of the mysteries of Christ.
Since Jesus Christ has given Mother Church the power to bind and loose, His successors have the power and responsibility of determining the customs and laws of the Church. ThatÂ’s how we have Christmas, and Sunday as the holy day. In any case we gladly follow.
Furthermore God has granted the privilege of the Holy Spirit to guide the Apostles and their successors. Does the Spirit fail? No. Therefore it is in this confidence that we follow the leaders of the Church.
However let me remind you that the ten commandments of Hashem still stand, and the fourth commandment is that you shall keep the Shabbat HOLY. six days you shall work, on the seventh day you shall rest. This commandment was so important to Hashem that the penalty for not keeping this was death. So how then when we know that Hashem is the same yesterday, today and forever and even our example Yeshua kept the seventh day as shabbat and not sunday, why does the church think it has the right to change the commandment of Hashem?
The apostles certainly did not change when shabbat was kept, even when you read Acts 15, Moses was read/taught in the synagogues on the shabbat, not sunday. Which is the first day of the week. -
The key to calculating the date of the birth of Messiah is Luke 1:5 where weOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:I was wondering, why do you insist that it must be during the Feast of Tabernacles? Do you know JesusÂ’ real birthdate? We donÂ’t claim to do so. It is just an estimate.
learn that Zechariah the father of Yochanan was a priest of the course of
Abijah.
The priests became to numerous to all serve at the Temple all the time, so
they were divided into 24 courses (1Chron. 24). Each course served for two
weeks each year, once in the former rain (first half of the year) and once
in the latter rain (second half of the year). There were also three weeks
in which all the priests were required to serve, these were the three
pilgrimage festivals (Dt. 16:16). 24 times 2 is 48 plus three is 51. 51
weeks is 357 days fitting nicely within the 360-day lunar year.
The course of Abijah is the eighth course (1Chron. 24:10) which serves the
tenth week during the former rain portion of the year (this is because
during Passover and Shavuot (Pentecost) all of the priests serve together
Dt. 16:16). Zechariah had his vision while serving in the course of Abijah
in the tenth week (It will become apparent that he was serving his first
course not his second, as the timing will show as we progress). Thus
Zechariah's vision took place during the 10th week of the year (The
religious year beginning at Nisan/Abib around 14 days before Passover). We
must add two additional weeks before Yochanan (John) could be conceived, due
to the purity laws (Lev. 12:5; 15:19, 25). So Yochanan was conceived in the
12th week of the year. He was born about 40 weeks later during the 52nd
week of the year (12 + 40 = 52) which brings us to Passover. Thus Yochanan
was born at Passover, the very time that Elijah was, according to Jewish
tradition, supposed to appear.
Yeshua was conceived 6 months (about 25 weeks) after Yochanan's conception.
This means Yeshua was conceived around the 37th week around Chanukah. This
would mean the light of the world was conceived during the festival of
lights.
Yeshua was born 40 weeks later (around week 77 that is week 25 of the
following year) this brings us to the time of the fall feasts.
There are several clues that Yeshua was born at Sukkot:
1. Bethlehem was "booked solid." This would have been due to the census,
which would have taken place over the period of a year. Every Jew was
required to come to Jerusalem for Sukkot (Dt. 16:16) this would have over
run Jerusalem as well as Bethlehem just five miles away.
2. Yeshua was born in a stable. The Hebrew word for "stable" is "sukkah"
(as in Gen. 33:17) so it is likely that Yeshua was born in a Sukkah/booth.
3. If Yeshua was born on the first day of Sukkot then he would have been
circumcised on the "eighth great day" a festival following Sukkot. This day
was the original "Simchat Torah" (Rejoicing in the Torah) which is now held
the following day in Rabbinic Judaism. Yeshua would have entered the
covenant on the day of "rejoicing in the Torah."
4. When the angels appeared to the shepherds they made a statement which
closely echoes the ancient Sukkot liturgy "...behold, we have come to
declare to you glad tidings of great joy." (Lk. 2:10-11)
5. Sukkot is symbolic of God dwelling in a "tabernacle" (body?) with us. -
Since when has Mosaic law been abolished? There was never a new law. Read the bible clearly. The Torah is Hashems word to His people. We wonder who is misleading the faithful??Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Mosaic Law has been abolished; moral laws have been made perfect by the New Law. Christianity has professed this for the past thousand years. I donÂ’t know why your Torah-observant movement is trying to re-invent the wheel. These ideas are recent innovations. Furthermore it does not help that you quote crap such as Alexander Hislop, whom is discredited even by Protestants. Stop misleading the faithful. -
Hey .. Hebrews 8:8 is similar to the one in Jeremiah who also spoke of the New Covenant!!Originally posted by breytonhartge:Hebrews 8:8... "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and withe the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Mizrayim; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, days the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people.
This new covenant is with the House of Judah and Israel, if we are not part of Judah or Israel, we have no covenant with Hashem.
New covenant does not mean new law, it is the same law but written on our hearts rather than on stone.
By the way, I hope Hebrews does not mis-interpret Jeremiah. Anyway the new covenant hasn't happen yet.
Brey, I hope you catch the keyword in Jeremiah and Herbews - "the house of Israel". There is no house of Israel now.
Edit: obviously there wasn't any house of Israel in Yeshua's days also. -
But clearly Acts 15 did away the need to observe the Mosaic Law for gentile Christians?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Since when has Mosaic law been abolished? There was never a new law. Read the bible clearly. The Torah is Hashems word to His people. We wonder who is misleading the faithful?? -
The 10 commandments were given to the Israelites. Even the Talmudic sages agree that gentiles need not obey the Mosaic Law.Originally posted by breytonhartge:However let me remind you that the ten commandments of Hashem still stand, and the fourth commandment is that you shall keep the Shabbat HOLY. six days you shall work, on the seventh day you shall rest. This commandment was so important to Hashem that the penalty for not keeping this was death. So how then when we know that Hashem is the same yesterday, today and forever and even our example Yeshua kept the seventh day as shabbat and not sunday, why does the church think it has the right to change the commandment of Hashem?
The apostles certainly did not change when shabbat was kept, even when you read Acts 15, Moses was read/taught in the synagogues on the shabbat, not sunday. Which is the first day of the week.
The argument is not about whether Sabbath was abolished, certainly the Sabbath will not be abolished. The argument is whether gentile Christians need to observe Sabbath or not. The Bible already gave us the answer:Acts 15 (NIV)
The requirements are not even Mosaic in origins. They came from Noahide time.
27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. -
I beg to differ. IT is not clear form Acts 15 that Mosaic Law was abolished for the gentiles because if you read on, they expect that gentile converts would go to synagogue during Shabbat and learn about Moses who is preached all over in the Synagogues every Shabbat.Originally posted by Icemoon:But clearly Acts 15 did away the need to observe the Mosaic Law for gentile Christians?
Acts 15:18-29 are quoted here as if the four 'necessary things' listed in verse 20 is all that is required of new gentile converts. I find it interesting, considering our subject matter, that the very next verse, speaking to the same new gentile converts, states that they will learn of Moses in the synagogues every Sabbath day. In other words, they will learn what is right and wrong, clean and unclean, holy and unholy as they are taught every Shabbat. Does this same writer actually believe that gentiles are only restricted to these four prohibitions? Will the new gentile converts not learn each Shabbat that stealing is wrong, murder is not productive, or that lying and armed robbery are not beneficial?
From the beginning, God's commandments have always been for God's people. In God's kingdom there NEVER has been a difference between Jew and Gentile. It is man that has divided God's people into numberless sects and denominations. From the beginning, you either follow the God of Israel or you do not. -
if you want to debate the Shabbat, start new topic de! Gets confusing...Originally posted by Icemoon:The requirements are not even Mosaic in origins. They came from Noahide time. -
The verse never says they will learn of Moses in the synagogues every Sabbath day.Originally posted by breytonhartge:I find it interesting, considering our subject matter, that the very next verse, speaking to the same new gentile converts, states that they will learn of Moses in the synagogues every Sabbath day.
I checked the commentaries. It seems that the 4 requirements are there partly because the Jewish apostles did not want the gentile converts to grieve the Jewish converts (Matthew Henry).
David Guzik (I dunno who the heck is he to be honest) explains it quite well:http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4415.htm
I find the Christian commentaries more convincing than your explanation.
g. But that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood: JamesÂ’ decision that Gentile believers should not be under the Mosaic Law is also tempered by practical instruction. The idea was that it was important that Gentile believers not act in a way that would antagonize the Jewish community in every city and destroy the churchÂ’s witness among Jews.
i. If the decision is that one does not have to be Jewish to be a Christian, it must also be declared that one does not need to forsake the Law of Moses to be a Christian.
h. To abstain from things polluted by idols . . . from things strangled, and from blood: These three commands have to do with the eating habits of Gentile Christians. Though they were not bound under the Law of Moses, they were bound under the Law of Love. The Law of Love tells them, “don’t unnecessarily antagonize your Jewish neighbors, both in and out of the church.”
i. To abstain from . . . sexual immorality: When James declares that they forbid the Gentile Christians to abstain from . . . sexual immorality, we shouldnÂ’t think that it means common sex outside of marriage, which all Christians (Jew or Gentile) recognized as wrong. Instead, James is directing these Gentiles living in such close fellowship with the Jewish believers to observe the specific marriage regulations required by Leviticus 18, which prohibited marriages between most family relations. This was something that Jews would abhor, but most Gentiles would think little of.
j. Gentile Christians had the “right” to eat meat sacrificed to idols, to continue their marriage practices, and to eat food without a kosher bleeding, because these were aspects of the Mosaic law they definitely were not under. However, they are encouraged (demanded?) to law down their “rights” in these matters as a display of love to their Jewish brethren.
i. “All four of the requested abstentions related to ceremonial laws laid down in Leviticus 17 and 18, and three of them concerned dietary matters which could inhibit Jewish-Gentile common meals.” (Stott) -
of course they would be christians explaining christian doctrine.Originally posted by Icemoon:I find the Christian commentaries more convincing than your explanation.