Christians Who Don't Celebrate Easter: What Do They Know?
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Actually those are the Israelites' customs because they are given to Israel.Originally posted by breytonhartge:CE's statement about not following the customs of Hashem, they are not just Jewish customs, but Hashem's customs.
As an analogy, how can something be a hokkien custom if it is unknown to the majority of hokkiens? So how can you call them Hashem's customs if they are unknown to the majority of Hashem's creations?
CE could have substituted Israelite for Jewish. -
Hence the verse in Numbers, which states that these ordinances are for both the stranger and the Israelite... we are the goyim, the stranger, but they still apply to us forever.Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually those are the Israelites' customs because they are given to Israel.
As an analogy, how can something be a hokkien custom if it is unknown to the majority of hokkiens? So how can you call them Hashem's customs if they are unknown to the majority of Hashem's creations?
CE could have substituted Israelite for Jewish. -
don't say "we" are the stranger leh.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Hence the verse in Numbers, which states that these ordinances are for both the stranger and the Israelite... we are the goyim, the stranger, but they still apply to us forever.
The stranger refers to converts like Ruth. Ruth is just like the stranger described in Numbers cos she moved to live with the Israelites right? -
"we" referring to all of us who choose to worship Hashem, so christians are included. If we choose to be part of Hashem's people as chirstians do by acknowledging Hashem as LORD, then these ordinances apply.Originally posted by Icemoon:don't say "we" are the stranger leh.
The stranger refers to converts like Ruth. Ruth is just like the stranger described in Numbers cos she moved to live with the Israelites right? -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Who is this verse addressed to? As Hashem's original plan did not include us, I do not think that this verse pertains to non-Jews.
Hashem's original plan did not include us. Bearing in mind what you have said, how do you reconcile this commandment in the Holy Scriptures:
Numbers 15:15-16
One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger who dwells with you, an [b]ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you[/b]
Just look at the time line, since there is no recognition of Gentile believers, therefore these verses were specifically addressed to the Hebrews who left Egypt.
One problem I see on people who read scripture: they assume that every single verse is targetted at everybody at all times.
I have always said this: scripture is to be read in relation to the context they are spoken (written).
I ask again: name me one Jewish evangelist who had made significant changes to the religious landscape in Asia. -
The verse is addressed to all of the people of Hashem and all of the "strangers" who dwell among Hashem's people who CHOOSE to follow Hashem. It very much pertains to non-jews. Who else could be the stranger?Originally posted by Chin Eng:Who is this verse addressed to? As Hashem's original plan did not include us, I do not think that this verse pertains to non-Jews.
Just look at the time line, since there is no recognition of Gentile believers, therefore these verses were specifically addressed to the Hebrews who left Egypt.
One problem I see on people who read scripture: they assume that every single verse is targetted at everybody at all times.
I have always said this: scripture is to be read in relation to the context they are spoken (written).
I ask again: name me one Jewish evangelist who had made significant changes to the religious landscape in Asia.
The context is this, we choose to worship the God of the Jews, Hashem. So we become the strangers among His people. The Laws of Hashem are the same for all of us or are you saying that Hashem will change His Laws which stand for all generations just for us?
The whole of scripture is targeted at all believers at all times.
Even coming down to the concept of being a disciple of Yeshua, do these people who profess and claim to be followers of Yeshua do what He did?
CE. Its not about being Jewish, its about being a follower of Hashem. These customs are not Jewish customs, they are Hashem's ways. His Laws. If you choose to follow Hashem, these are His Laws and commandments for you. Yeshua did not change any of that. -
whatever you call it, right now I am not going out to remember the crucifixion of Christ - shou nan jie. It's not easter, it's only easter if you are in a white dominated environmented. To the rest of the non-white churches, it's about the crucifixion of Christ. Is that wrong?Originally posted by breytonhartge:CE. Its not about being Jewish, its about being a follower of Hashem. These customs are not Jewish customs, they are Hashem's ways. His Laws. If you choose to follow Hashem, these are His Laws and commandments for you. Yeshua did not change any of that.
On Sunday, we'd celebration the resurrection of Christ, and joyously we'd sing songs of praises to Him. Is that wrong?
Even though it is not a direct command from God, I don't see how it is a conflict to His mandate.
You have chosen to see "Easter" as easter in the western secular point of view. For once, can't you choose to see it as a day to remember Christ's sacrifice for us, and ignore the secular traditions totally? -
But I thought the Jerusalem Council came to the following conclusion - those who are Jewish, remain so. Gentile converts need not follow the the Law of Hashem.Originally posted by breytonhartge:CE. Its not about being Jewish, its about being a follower of Hashem. These customs are not Jewish customs, they are Hashem's ways. His Laws. If you choose to follow Hashem, these are His Laws and commandments for you. Yeshua did not change any of that. -
Assume Brey's understanding is right, won't gentile Christians be circumcised today?
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The point is this. The bible tells us that the nominated feast for this season is passover, hence if we are following the bible, then we should align ourselves with passover rather than easter. So if this is a commandment from the LORD to keep this appointed feast, why then do we not do it? Why can't the churches have a passover service instead? Since in your opinion it is just a naming convention?Originally posted by Chin Eng:whatever you call it, right now I am not going out to remember the crucifixion of Christ - shou nan jie. It's not easter, it's only easter if you are in a white dominated environmented. To the rest of the non-white churches, it's about the crucifixion of Christ. Is that wrong?
On Sunday, we'd celebration the resurrection of Christ, and joyously we'd sing songs of praises to Him. Is that wrong?
Even though it is not a direct command from God, I don't see how it is a conflict to His mandate.
You have chosen to see "Easter" as easter in the western secular point of view. For once, can't you choose to see it as a day to remember Christ's sacrifice for us, and ignore the secular traditions totally?
Again if you want to celebrate Yeshua's death and ressurection, celebrate the passover as Yeshua commanded you to do. Don't make it easter, which the churches do.
Easter is not just a secular tradition, it is also a church man made tradition, which has been wholly endorsed by the church. IF it truly was about just celebrating the death and ressurection of Yeshua, then why do all the churches call it an easter service?? -
Who is mightier the Jerusalem Council or Hashem? What did Hashem say? One Law One Ordinance forever throughout your generations for the Jew and the stranger.Originally posted by Icemoon:But I thought the Jerusalem Council came to the following conclusion - those who are Jewish, remain so. Gentile converts need not follow the the Law of Hashem. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Who is mightier the Jerusalem Council or Hashem? What did Hashem say? One Law One Ordinance forever throughout your generations for the Jew and the stranger.
The Jerusalem Council decreed under the auspice of Hashem. -
The early church is anti-Jewish. They wanted to alienate themselves from the Jews. Some bishops were in favour of holding the celebration on Passover day though.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Easter is not just a secular tradition, it is also a church man made tradition, which has been wholly endorsed by the church. IF it truly was about just celebrating the death and ressurection of Yeshua, then why do all the churches call it an easter service??
Refer to the the Quartodeciman or Paschal controversy if you are interested - http://www.wcg.org/lit/church/holidays/passover.htmThe controversy involved three events: the controversy between Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna, and Anicetus, the bishop of Rome, that occurred around a.d. 155; the more heated controversy between Polycrates, the bishop of Ephesus, and Victor, the bishop of Rome, that broke out around 195; and the decree of Constantine following the Nicene Council in 325.
Mai siao siao .. Polycarp against the Pope (bishop of Rome).
Scholars disagree about the controversy's details. They do agree that its arguments revolved around whether the primary Christian spring festival should happen on Nisan 14 (the Passover day) or annually on a Sunday.
Eusebius is our primary source for the controversy between Polycarp and Anicetus. Polycarp knew the apostle John and was of such stature that many considered him John's spiritual, though not apostolic, successor in Asia Minor. Polycarp believed that Nisan 14 was the correct time for the spring festival, but Anicetus, bishop of Rome, favored Sunday.
This controversy is enough to show that the early church was not as united as the Roman Catholics claim.
PS: Actually I don't understand why Polycarp is not considered the apostolic successor of John. Hmm .. -
you've got to be kidding me right??Originally posted by Icemoon:
The Jerusalem Council decreed under the auspice of Hashem. -
The whole point is that we should not consider these festivals as Jewish rather consider them as festivals of Hashem, hence for all believers in Hashem to celebrate.Originally posted by Icemoon:The early church is anti-Jewish. They wanted to alienate themselves from the Jews. Some bishops were in favour of holding the celebration on Passover day though. -
You are the one kidding now.Originally posted by breytonhartge:you've got to be kidding me right??
The Jerusalem Council was made up of apostles - the disciples of Jesus.
Are you saying the apostles went against the directive of Hashem? -
I understand your point.Originally posted by breytonhartge:The whole point is that we should not consider these festivals as Jewish rather consider them as festivals of Hashem, hence for all believers in Hashem to celebrate.
But the early church don't!
The reason why we keep on saying Jewish Jew etc. and not Hashem is because of the situation today. The Jews are the renmants of the original tribes of Israel. During the time of Yeshua, it was already like that. Remember Jews didn't mix well with Samaritans, even though both were given the same Torah? -
Hence something needs to be done. But the church are a stubborn lot...Originally posted by Icemoon:I understand your point.
But the early church don't!
The reason why we keep on saying Jewish Jew etc. and not Hashem is because of the situation today. The Jews are the renmants of the original tribes of Israel. During the time of Yeshua, it was already like that. Remember Jews didn't mix well with Samaritans, even though both were given the same Torah? -
Maybe you are the stubborn one?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Hence something needs to be done. But the church are a stubborn lot...
Look .. the church is founded on Peter the Rock.
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Yeah, I stubbornly follow the ways of Hashem... written in the Holy Scriptures...Originally posted by Icemoon:Maybe you are the stubborn one?
Look .. the church is founded on Peter the Rock. -
I think the argument now is whether Christians (followers of Yeshua) should follow the ways of Hashem or not.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Yeah, I stubbornly follow the ways of Hashem... written in the Holy Scriptures...
The Jerusalem Council decreed that gentile converts don't need. -
Coming back to point, who is the greater authority, the Jerusalem council or HASHEM?Originally posted by Icemoon:I think the argument now is whether Christians (followers of Yeshua) should follow the ways of Hashem or not.
The Jerusalem Council decreed that gentile converts don't need. -
I love eating the delicious hot cross buns during easter
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This is the season of passover and the feast of unleavened bread, for this time, we not to touch leaven or eat anything that is leavened... this includes bread.. and hot cross buns...Originally posted by shade343:I love eating the delicious hot cross buns during easter -
Why are you asking this question?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Coming back to point, who is the greater authority, the Jerusalem council or HASHEM?
The Jerusalem council is the body of apostles!! They are acting under the auspice of Hashem.
I'm suggesting your understanding is wrong. It seems that you are stuck by my question and your [easy] way out is to ask who is the greater authority.
There shouldn't be such a question at all!