Christians Who Don't Celebrate Easter: What Do They Know?
-
I can also argue that the world was against the church.... the leaders were persecuted, some to the death, yet the gospel of Christ was pushed all over the world according to the Great Commission.Originally posted by vince69:Unker...
to be fair, during the post apostlotic (spelling mistake) days of the church ... mots of the leaders are anti-jews, some of these are commonly found in the teaching (over the pulpit) or personal comments such as
1) The Jews are over, finished, the Church had replaced them as God's people
2) Its the Jews that had mudered our Lord Jesus Christ
....etc
so its not a wonder that during this times, there is no prominent Jewish evangelist/scholar/teacher who were prominent in influencing the movement of the church (probably, they are excluded from the church).
cheers
So if persecuted Christian leaders brought the gospel out inspite of the persecution, Jewish folks got whacked by Christian leaders chickened out?
One point from brey was that the message of God does not need to be evangelised because all should be able to see these message, hence there is no need to have prominent Jewish evangelist? Do you agree?
Another point is: assuming the Jewish folks did chickened out because they were persecuted by the church leaders...
God allowed that to happen because nothing was done to correct the "errors"....
so after 1500 years...
we go pointing fingers...
and expect the world to be corrected overnight...
is it fair?
If we go along the line of the Nicodemus principle....
if it is not of God, it will pass away....
yet the current line of churches did not pass away...
and continue to flourish....
what do we infer from this...
that the church is still wrong? -
Unfair comparison.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I can also argue that the world was against the church.... the leaders were persecuted, some to the death, yet the gospel of Christ was pushed all over the world according to the Great Commission.
Persecution of Christian dropped drastically when Constantine made it the state religion.
But anti-Jewish sentiments only got worse .. -
Actually I quite confused after reading the Jewish evangelist part.
To me, the label is an oxymoron.
-
The persecution that the Jews have faced is far worse than what the church ever faced, in fact it is the early church that perpertrated much hostility against the Jews as well as other religions all in the name of Hashem, with no clear mandate from Hashem. When Yahweh told the Israelites to enter the promised land, that was clear mandate, the goyim were meant to be wiped out... for the sake of Israel. Yet somehow, we are here, by His grace and we have been given the ability to become part of the Commonwealth of Israel through Yeshua.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I can also argue that the world was against the church.... the leaders were persecuted, some to the death, yet the gospel of Christ was pushed all over the world according to the Great Commission.
So if persecuted Christian leaders brought the gospel out inspite of the persecution, Jewish folks got whacked by Christian leaders chickened out?
One point from brey was that the message of God does not need to be evangelised because all should be able to see these message, hence there is no need to have prominent Jewish evangelist? Do you agree?
Another point is: assuming the Jewish folks did chickened out because they were persecuted by the church leaders...
God allowed that to happen because nothing was done to correct the "errors"....
so after 1500 years...
we go pointing fingers...
and expect the world to be corrected overnight...
is it fair?
If we go along the line of the Nicodemus principle....
if it is not of God, it will pass away....
yet the current line of churches did not pass away...
and continue to flourish....
what do we infer from this...
that the church is still wrong?
Did I ever demand that this correction needs to be corrected overnight? It is a learning process, one step at a time, one individual at a time, there are already whole congregations out there who have been walking in Hebraic doctrine for years now. Yet the church is exactly what Yeshua said of the pharisees, the blind leading the blind. The church has become the modern day equivalent of the pharisees. Like I said before, now that you know, what are you going to do about it?
Taking your line of approach, islam did not pass away but flourishes, buddhism did not pass away but still flourishes, taoism did not pass away but still flourishes, what can we infer from this, that these religions are right? Will you stick your neck out and say that these religions are right? Will you put it in writing?
Yet in the face of all the persecution we have the Jews who have been keeping Torah for the longest of anyone and following Hashem for the longest time, even longer than the church, and they have still not passed away, yet we see the many miracles that Hashem have done for them, and you still want to argue that they are wrong? Because if they are wrong, the church certainly does not have it right! We are worshipping THEIR GOD. Not ours. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually I quite confused after reading the Jewish evangelist part.
To me, the label is an oxymoron.
-
Ask yourself the question, what is the great commission? That we make disciples and not just preach the good news. What is a disciple? Someone who follows the master. What is our master like? Can you honestly tell me that the church is like Hashem?Originally posted by Chin Eng:I can also argue that the world was against the church.... the leaders were persecuted, some to the death, yet the gospel of Christ was pushed all over the world according to the Great Commission. -
I really don't know if the persecution that the Jews have faced is far worse than what the church or anyone else ever faced. I somehow get the feeling that the sentiments the Jews feel is a persecution complex, ie, I want to feel persecuted....Originally posted by breytonhartge:The persecution that the Jews have faced is far worse than what the church ever faced, in fact it is the early church that perpertrated much hostility against the Jews as well as other religions all in the name of Hashem, with no clear mandate from Hashem. When Yahweh told the Israelites to enter the promised land, that was clear mandate, the goyim were meant to be wiped out... for the sake of Israel. Yet somehow, we are here, by His grace and we have been given the ability to become part of the Commonwealth of Israel through Yeshua. How do you quantify that the Jewish people were persecuted more than anyone else???
You know what? From your standpoint, absolutely nothing....Originally posted by breytonhartge:Did I ever demand that this correction needs to be corrected overnight? It is a learning process, one step at a time, one individual at a time, there are already whole congregations out there who have been walking in Hebraic doctrine for years now. Yet the church is exactly what Yeshua said of the pharisees, the blind leading the blind. The church has become the modern day equivalent of the pharisees. Like I said before, now that you know, what are you going to do about it? However, there are efforts, not parallel to yours to rectify doctrinal errors. Years before reading what you wrote and believe in, I have banned Santa Claus in the SS, I have questioned the distribution of the Easter eggs in churches, I have questioned the purpose Christmas trees etc. What I did not do - I did not leave the church and condemn it from the outside! Please don't assume that people are sitting on their fat ass and just accept what the church dishes out. There are many of us who question the church, but we do it in the INSIDE!
God must His purpose. Otherwise explain the Nicodemus principle. I believe what I believe to be true... I however do not have the right to tell you what I believe in is the absolute truth.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Taking your line of approach, islam did not pass away but flourishes, buddhism did not pass away but still flourishes, taoism did not pass away but still flourishes, what can we infer from this, that these religions are right? Will you stick your neck out and say that these religions are right? Will you put it in writing?
Yes they've kept the Torah, yet many do not accept that Christ is the Messiah!Originally posted by breytonhartge:Yet in the face of all the persecution we have the Jews who have been keeping Torah for the longest of anyone and following Hashem for the longest time, even longer than the church, and they have still not passed away, yet we see the many miracles that Hashem have done for them, and you still want to argue that they are wrong? Because if they are wrong, the church certainly does not have it right! We are worshipping THEIR GOD. Not ours.
Of course, since when have I said that the church is right. I have said that both sides have been wrong sometime or other. Yet you maintain that only one side is right all the time.
We are worshipping THEIR GOD - I really find this statement offensive. God is the God of everyone. If I have to worship God in the second-hand way, I'd rather not worship God at all!
To sum it all:
If my God is so petty that He gets angry because I celebrate his festivals on the wrong dates because I do not know better - so be it!
If my God is so small that He gets upset because I call Him the wrong name in another language - so be it!
If my God finds faults at my effort to please Him because I am not learned enough - so be it!
If my God is unhappy because I do not understand the language of His chosen people because his chosen people did not do a good job to promote Him - so be it!
If this is the God I am worshipping, then I think He is not God.....
...before anyone starts jumping up and down and accuse me of rejecting God, let me just say that I only rejecting the God that brey had painted. -
Then why are you following a Jewish God and waiting for a Jewish Messiah?Originally posted by Chin Eng:I am born a Chinese and will die a Chinese. If God had intended for me to live the life a Jew, I'd be born a Jew. -
lol .. very funny siah.
Here, Brey is the mod and CE is the guest.
In EH, it is the reverse. -
Now who is playing the politician? This the biggest cop out answer if ever... double standard! When push comes to shove, you chicken out!Originally posted by Chin Eng:God must His purpose. Otherwise explain the Nicodemus principle. I believe what I believe to be true... I however do not have the right to tell you what I believe in is the absolute truth. -
At least I was also a mod in EH before.. I have one up!Originally posted by Icemoon:lol .. very funny siah.
Here, Brey is the mod and CE is the guest.
In EH, it is the reverse.
-
Brey .. you inconsistent leh.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Then why are you following a Jewish God and waiting for a Jewish Messiah?
Earlier you promote the use of the Law of Hashem, the Torah does not belong to the Jews etc. But now you saying Jewish God?
Unker will say the Messiah just happens to be Jewish. -
How do you quantify that they havent?Originally posted by Chin Eng:I really don't know if the persecution that the Jews have faced is far worse than what the church or anyone else ever faced. I somehow get the feeling that the sentiments the Jews feel is a persecution complex, ie, I want to feel persecuted.... How do you quantify that the Jewish people were persecuted more than anyone else???
Have the atrocities that have been perpertrated on the Jewish people been done to anyone else? -
Brey you also got play leh.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Now who is playing the politician? This the biggest cop out answer if ever... double standard! When push comes to shove, you chicken out! -
Now who is judging who? So you are telling me that this is the right way to go? Why stay in a system which is hostile to you? Why stay in the lie when you don't believe in that mindset of the system? Are you not then just being untrue to what you know??Originally posted by Chin Eng:You know what? From your standpoint, absolutely nothing.... However, there are efforts, not parallel to yours to rectify doctrinal errors. Years before reading what you wrote and believe in, I have banned Santa Claus in the SS, I have questioned the distribution of the Easter eggs in churches, I have questioned the purpose Christmas trees etc. What I did not do - I did not leave the church and condemn it from the outside! Please don't assume that people are sitting on their fat ass and just accept what the church dishes out. There are many of us who question the church, but we do it in the INSIDE!
Did I ever say anything about the people who attend the church? Don't put words in my mouth and please do not assume those are my sentiments. Now who is over generalising? -
Hashem is the God of the Jews. He gave the Jews the Torah, not anybody else. We are following the bible which is the inspired word of Hashem to the Jewish people. How is Hashem not the God of the Jews?Originally posted by Icemoon:Brey .. you inconsistent leh.
Earlier you promote the use of the Law of Hashem, the Torah does not belong to the Jews etc. But now you saying Jewish God?
Unker will say the Messiah just happens to be Jewish. -
Clearly, you are practising double standards. Read your reply on page 1 (last entry):Originally posted by breytonhartge:Hashem is the God of the Jews. He gave the Jews the Torah, not anybody else. We are following the bible which is the inspired word of Hashem to the Jewish people. How is Hashem not the God of the Jews?CE's statement about not following the customs of Hashem, they are not just Jewish customs, but Hashem's customs.
So only you can criticise others and others cannot criticise you?
Unker took offence because you are saying we worship their God. And then in your reply to him, you saidThen why are you following a Jewish God and waiting for a Jewish Messiah?
In a sense, you never learn from your "mistake". -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
This is exactly the greek mindset, you have put Hashem in a box, you want to worship a God you are comfortable with, not Hashem as He truly is. You are creating your own god, are you sure that is Hashem.
Yes they've kept the Torah, yet many do not accept that Christ is the Messiah!
Of course, since when have I said that the church is right. I have said that both sides have been wrong sometime or other. Yet you maintain that only one side is right all the time.
[b]We are worshipping THEIR GOD - I really find this statement offensive. God is the God of everyone. If I have to worship God in the second-hand way, I'd rather not worship God at all!
To sum it all:
If my God is so petty that He gets angry because I celebrate his festivals on the wrong dates because I do not know better - so be it!
If my God is so small that He gets upset because I call Him the wrong name in another language - so be it!
If my God finds faults at my effort to please Him because I am not learned enough - so be it!
If my God is unhappy because I do not understand the language of His chosen people because his chosen people did not do a good job to promote Him - so be it!
If this is the God I am worshipping, then I think He is not God.....
...before anyone starts jumping up and down and accuse me of rejecting God, let me just say that I only rejecting the God that brey had painted.[/b]
Hashem is loving, merciful, kind, gracious... yes, whilst these attributes apply, Hashem is also the God of the Holy Scriptures... who demands obedience. We have to follow His ways not He succumb to our weaknesses and say its all right, Hashem will forgive, whilst Hashem understands our struggles and gives us grace to repent and change, it still does not excuse us from making the changes when we know the truth! There will come a time when there will be no more grace.
In your mindset, you focus only on the positive attributes of Hashem which give you a nice warm tingly feeling inside and fail to take note that Hashem is a God who says that people who do not keep my Shabbat will be cut off, who destroyed whole cities for sin, who says that if you do not keep His commandments, you are not of Him. Hashem is a God ready to destroy His chosen people for fornication with the golden calf... and who killed Uzzah for touching the ark of the covenant even thought it was a "helpful" thing.
The gist of it is this we are supposed to be Yeshua's disciples, yet we look nothing like Him. -
Icy, let me see if I can put this in a way you understand, whilst Hashem is the God of the Jews first, His ways are not Jewish ways but for all to follow. Even in the Holy Scriptures Hashem is known as the God of the Jews. All the goyim knew Him as such.Originally posted by Icemoon:In a sense, you never learn from your "mistake". -
Actually Unker is secretly shifting the goalpost .. and you fell into his trapOriginally posted by breytonhartge:How do you quantify that they havent?
Have the atrocities that have been perpertrated on the Jewish people been done to anyone else?
IMHO, the real argument here is that the church is the one who started the persecution of Jews. Remember we started with the oxymoronic Jewish evangelist question? So essentially we are analysing the relationship between Jews and Christians.
By turning it into a general persecution question, the red herring has been thrown. Jews could have been persecuted by different groups of people, e.g. the secular society and Muslims as well. It will be unfair to say the Church and Christians have a hand in all of these.
But there is no doubt anti-Jewish sentiments started with Christianity and the New Testament. Brey, if you take the New Testament to be Scripture, then your faith is also involved. -
I understand. I think it is a matter of perspective and context.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Icy, let me see if I can put this in a way you understand, whilst Hashem is the God of the Jews first, His ways are not Jewish ways but for all to follow. Even in the Holy Scriptures Hashem is known as the God of the Jews. All the goyim knew Him as such.
In the Holy Scriptures, Hashem is known as God of the Jews to *differentiate* Him from other gods like Baal and Ashterah (sp?).
But outside the Holy Scriptures, it depends on the audience. Of course CE knows you are talking about Hashem and not Baal. So it is a bit insensitive to claim CE is worshipping their God. Because once the gospel has been given, it is a two way relationship, i.e. God knows you and you know God. -
Technically Hashem is still Thier God because He chose them, but we chose Him, if you get what I am trying to put across?Originally posted by Icemoon:I understand. I think it is a matter of perspective and context.
In the Holy Scriptures, Hashem is known as God of the Jews to *differentiate* Him from other gods like Baal and Ashterah (sp?).
But outside the Holy Scriptures, it depends on the audience. Of course CE knows you are talking about Hashem and not Baal. So it is a bit insensitive to claim CE is worshipping their God. Because once the gospel has been given, it is a two way relationship, i.e. God knows you and you know God. -
explain further...Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually Unker is secretly shifting the goalpost .. and you fell into his trap
IMHO, the real argument here is that the church is the one who started the persecution of Jews. Remember we started with the oxymoronic Jewish evangelist question? So essentially we are analysing the relationship between Jews and Christians.
By turning it into a general persecution question, the red herring has been thrown. Jews could have been persecuted by different groups of people, e.g. the secular society and Muslims as well. It will be unfair to say the Church and Christians have a hand in all of these.
But there is no doubt anti-Jewish sentiments started with Christianity and the New Testament. Brey, if you take the New Testament to be Scripture, then your faith is also involved.
-
Now this is my argument with you.Originally posted by breytonhartge:In your mindset, you focus only on the positive attributes of Hashem which give you a nice warm tingly feeling inside and fail to take note that Hashem is a God who says that people who do not keep my Shabbat will be cut off, who destroyed whole cities for sin, who says that if you do not keep His commandments, you are not of Him. Hashem is a God ready to destroy His chosen people for fornication with the golden calf... and who killed Uzzah for touching the ark of the covenant even thought it was a "helpful" thing.
The gist of it is this we are supposed to be Yeshua's disciples, yet we look nothing like Him.
I have argued that your position is untenable. You either take the Jewish position or the Christian position. There is no middle ground.
I have put it to you many times - the Jewish prophets and sages .. how many of them worship Yeshua?
And worse .. you ignore the Oral Tradition! -
Actually I've been think hard about this question... my conclusion is: who fulfilled the Great Commission? Obviously not the Jews, because they "kena persecuted like siao" and seems to have ran away. So we are really left with nobody who can fulfil the great commission seeing that those who actually did all the leg work were quite wrong, according to you... and then subsequently I think you said that it is not the job of the Jews to spread the gospel.... quite confusion hor...Originally posted by breytonhartge:Ask yourself the question, what is the great commission? That we make disciples and not just preach the good news. What is a disciple? Someone who follows the master. What is our master like? Can you honestly tell me that the church is like Hashem?
Siao ah.... I am not following the Jewish God, I am following the God of all who happened to picked the Jews as his first people..... I am not waiting for a Jewish messiah? Are you waiting for the Messiah? Isn't Jesus the messiah? This went over my head, really one.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Then why are you following a Jewish God and waiting for a Jewish Messiah?
Why suddenly politics entered the picture? Oh, I get it, the Jewish mindset.... hmm.... what double standard, what I said is exactly what I feel. Have you ever see me whack other religion and shove Christianity down their throats...?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Now who is playing the politician? This the biggest cop out answer if ever... double standard! When push comes to shove, you chicken out!
See, your tail is showingOriginally posted by breytonhartge:At least I was also a mod in EH before.. I have one up! Let's now all see that we are now talking about status here, like who's been mod and who's not..... Since you brought it out.... and I would not have wanted talked about it. You got removed! That's the reality check for you!
umm.... plenty.... most recently, the rape of Nanking....Originally posted by breytonhartge:How do you quantify that they havent?
Have the atrocities that have been perpertrated on the Jewish people been done to anyone else?
seems again, we are comparing volume of atrocities.... the one-up-manship of suffering of their race... get a grip lah... the Jews are one of the riches people in the world.... suffering over lah. They control the stock market! Time to change the world... that's if they can get their Biblical act together again!