Christians Who Don't Celebrate Easter: What Do They Know?
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Actually the middle ground is the position of Hebraic christianity... of the Jews who believe that Yeshua is the Messiah...Originally posted by Icemoon:Now this is my argument with you.
I have argued that your position is untenable. You either take the Jewish position or the Christian position. There is no middle ground.
I have put it to you many times - the Jewish prophets and sages .. how many of them worship Yeshua?
And worse .. you ignore the Oral Tradition!
With Oral Tradition, hmmm....
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which part?Originally posted by breytonhartge:explain further...
Essentially, I am saying we should focus on the correct thing. Unker asked whether the persecution can be quantified, but I say this is a waste of time. Maybe the chinese suffered more persecution?
The fact is anti-Jewish sentiments started from Christianity and her New Testament. So if you take the New Testament as Scripture, then you should be aware of this. -
Get your facts straight, I stepped down. Ask Sillyme.Originally posted by Chin Eng:See, your tail is showing Let's now all see that we are now talking about status here, like who's been mod and who's not..... Since you brought it out.... and I would not have wanted talked about it. You got removed! That's the reality check for you!
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I meant that you give a principle but then cannot stand by it? Following from your train of thought, other religions that have existed for so long must be right, so how? This is in conflict with your belief in Hashem/christianity... which then says that all other religions are false... becayse Hashem IS THE ONE TRUE GOD.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Why suddenly politics entered the picture? Oh, I get it, the Jewish mindset.... hmm.... what double standard, what I said is exactly what I feel. Have you ever see me whack other religion and shove Christianity down their throats...? -
Explain this further...Originally posted by Icemoon:But there is no doubt anti-Jewish sentiments started with Christianity and the New Testament. Brey, if you take the New Testament to be Scripture, then your faith is also involved. -
well whatever.. lah, reality is that the mod issue in your last post has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. However, if my memory serves me right, sillyme had issued an apology for removing your mod status without discussion with you.... I can dig it up, but maybe it's not necessary.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Get your facts straight, I stepped down. Ask Sillyme.
I really don't see why you need to bring in the "I am one up" thing into this discussion. -
Yes I believe other religions are false, but I will NOT compel others to believe the same thing.Originally posted by breytonhartge:I meant that you give a principle but then cannot stand by it? Following from your train of thought, other religions that have existed for so long must be right, so how? This is in conflict with your belief in Hashem/christianity... which then says that all other religions are false... becayse Hashem IS THE ONE TRUE GOD.
Going back to the principle, which may I add is NOT POLITICAL (You have used a wrong word), I am not certain how that works, you are supposed to be well versed in Scripture, explain that to me. In my mindset, the other religions will pass away because they did not worship God, Jehovah. Also in my mindset, my God, Jehovah is also the same God as you worship (at least that's what I hope). That is why I do not believe Christianity and Judaism will disapear.....
But I take offence at your word "political", there is nothing political in what we are discussion, but feel free to include that in. -
God did not preserve the middle ground. It is also oxymoronic to say Hebrew Christian because once you embrace Yeshua, sooner or later your descendants will stop being Jews. This is especially in the past when the Jews have no state of their own. Since Jews are not very happy if their own people convert to Christianity, the converts will be distanced from the community. Maybe the converts will be ex-communicated? So bo bian these converts will integrate into the society outside as Christians. And you know lah, you live outside the Jewish community where to find kosher food?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Actually the middle ground is the position of Hebraic christianity... of the Jews who believe that Yeshua is the Messiah...
With Oral Tradition, hmmm....
What God did preserve are the descendants of the Pharisees - rabbinical Jews. The sadducees and ebionites were not preserved. Ironically the Pharisees are the people who always kenna kan by Yeshua.
Oral Tradition is given to Moses on Sinai. What's wrong with it? I remember a rabbi was saying Daniel followed some Law of Hashem NOT documented in the Torah. How do you explain it? -
Hmm .. I thought very clear liao?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Explain this further...
I'm sure you know the examples. -
Hmm .. how much rating can this verbal battle generate?
Need to get vince, mc2 and lau in to fan the flame?
Edit: Borrow the fan from the Iron Fan Princess in Journey to the West! -
Originally posted by Icemoon:Hmm .. how much rating can this verbal battle generate?
Need to get vince, mc2 and lau in to fan the flame? 
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I really have no problem with a statement that the Jews were persecuted, because it is factual. But I think that in the global scale, every race faced persecution and genocide some time or another. To have a mindset that "I suffered the most" is, to me, the cry baby who keep saying that he's being bullied all the time.Originally posted by Icemoon:which part?
Essentially, I am saying we should focus on the correct thing. Unker asked whether the persecution can be quantified, but I say this is a waste of time. Maybe the chinese suffered more persecution?
The fact is anti-Jewish sentiments started from Christianity and her New Testament. So if you take the New Testament as Scripture, then you should be aware of this.
Going back to the Great Commission thing... while it is true that Jews were whacked by the church fathers, how many of these Jews were doing the Great Commission thing? Jews were persecuted because of their race, Christian preachers (white, black, yellow, etc) were persecuted because of their faith and in many countries the persecution continues till today!
At the end of the day, how many true Jews, messianic or otherwise, were active in "making disciples of all nations"? If there were none, the church had the misfortune of having the gospel spread by Europeans who doesn't know any better, and we are left with this current predicament...
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So now you are saying that you will force christianity down the throats of other religions??Originally posted by Chin Eng:Yes I believe other religions are false, but I will compel others to believe the same thing.
Going back to the principle, which may I add is NOT POLITICAL (You have used a wrong word), I am not certain how that works, you are supposed to be well versed in Scripture, explain that to me. In my mindset, the other religions will pass away because they did not worship God, Jehovah. Also in my mindset, my God, Jehovah is also the same God as you worship (at least that's what I hope). That is why I do not believe Christianity and Judaism will disapear.....
But I take offence at your word "political", there is nothing political in what we are discussion, but feel free to include that in.
When I said politician, I did not mean it literally, I meant it in a sense of how politicians always give answers, nither here nor there... always in the air... -
sorry missed out the word NOT. will editOriginally posted by breytonhartge:So now you are saying that you will force christianity down the throats of other religions??
When I said politician, I did not mean it literally, I meant it in a sense of how politicians always give answers, nither here nor there... always in the air... -
Messianic Jews... is the term I am looking for... sorry.Originally posted by Icemoon:God did not preserve the middle ground. It is also oxymoronic to say Hebrew Christian because once you embrace Yeshua, sooner or later your descendants will stop being Jews. This is especially in the past when the Jews have no state of their own. Since Jews are not very happy if their own people convert to Christianity, the converts will be distanced from the community. Maybe the converts will be ex-communicated? So bo bian these converts will integrate into the society outside as Christians. And you know lah, you live outside the Jewish community where to find kosher food?
What God did preserve are the descendants of the Pharisees - rabbinical Jews. The sadducees and ebionites were not preserved. Ironically the Pharisees are the people who always kenna kan by Yeshua.
Oral Tradition is given to Moses on Sinai. What's wrong with it? I remember a rabbi was saying Daniel followed some Law of Hashem NOT documented in the Torah. How do you explain it?
Go to Jewish community to buy kosher food lah.
Did I say there was anything wrong with oral tradition?? -
If you want to learn about Hashem from the Jews, just go ask a Rabbi or a practising Jew. They have lots to say. If you will listen. Well now there are Messianic Jews who are doing just that, making disciples of all nations. The Jewish way of making a disciple is very differnt from the churchs very loose way of making a disciple. First many of the man made festivities have to be jettisoned.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I really have no problem with a statement that the Jews were persecuted, because it is factual. But I think that in the global scale, every race faced persecution and genocide some time or another. To have a mindset that "I suffered the most" is, to me, the cry baby who keep saying that he's being bullied all the time.
Going back to the Great Commission thing... while it is true that Jews were whacked by the church fathers, how many of these Jews were doing the Great Commission thing? Jews were persecuted because of their race, Christian preachers (white, black, yellow, etc) were persecuted because of their faith and in many countries the persecution continues till today!
At the end of the day, how many true Jews, messianic or otherwise, were active in "making disciples of all nations"? If there were none, the church had the misfortune of having the gospel spread by Europeans who doesn't know any better, and we are left with this current predicament... -
But Messianic Jews is only a recent phenomenon!!Originally posted by breytonhartge:Messianic Jews... is the term I am looking for... sorry.
Go to Jewish community to buy kosher food lah.
Did I say there was anything wrong with oral tradition??
They ex-com you liao, so it is hard to live a Jewish lifestyle. No motivation lah. Like in Singapore the traditions of each dialect is dying out?
If nothing wrong, you "hmm" for what? -
Now then make disciples a bit late right?Originally posted by breytonhartge:If you want to learn about Hashem from the Jews, just go ask a Rabbi or a practising Jew. They have lots to say. If you will listen. Well now there are Messianic Jews who are doing just that, making disciples of all nations. The Jewish way of making a disciple is very differnt from the churchs very loose way of making a disciple. First many of the man made festivities have to be jettisoned.
What have they been doing in the past? -
Hey, I am sure there are now plenty of Messianic Jews doing just that.... abet, 2000 years later than when the Great Commission was issued. I am quite sure that these Messianic Jews WILL have some levels of success. I am NOT even quarrelling with the doctrines and changes that may or may not occur. I have even attended a session where a Jew (probably a Messianic one) shared with my congregation on the various items of worship in the Hebrew context and found it to be educational.Originally posted by breytonhartge:If you want to learn about Hashem from the Jews, just go ask a Rabbi or a practising Jew. They have lots to say. If you will listen. Well now there are Messianic Jews who are doing just that, making disciples of all nations. The Jewish way of making a disciple is very differnt from the churchs very loose way of making a disciple. First many of the man made festivities have to be jettisoned.
I am only saying: there is no need to for all the hostile postulation about what was and was not done correctly! You want to change the world? Do it constructively! Bad mouthing those who do not agree with your mindset is not the way! -
actually that's my exact question.Originally posted by Icemoon:Now then make disciples a bit late right?
What have they been doing in the past? one answer I got from Brey was that there was no need to evangelise.. at another point, it was they cannot evangelise because kena persecuted.... then now they need to evangelise.... I got dam confused liao....
so is it: can or cannot?
or: will or will not?
or: should or should not? -
cannot hmmm meh?Originally posted by Icemoon:But Messianic Jews is only a recent phenomenon!!
They ex-com you liao, so it is hard to live a Jewish lifestyle. No motivation lah. Like in Singapore the traditions of each dialect is dying out?
If nothing wrong, you "hmm" for what? -
no wonder your are confused, I only said they did not need to evangelise... someone else not me said they cannot because they got persecuted...Originally posted by Chin Eng:actually that's my exact question. one answer I got from Brey was that there was no need to evangelise.. at another point, it was they cannot evangelise because kena persecuted.... then now they need to evangelise.... I got dam confused liao....
so is it: can or cannot?
or: will or will not?
or: should or should not?
the Jews do not have to evangelise... -
The Jews have always been making disciples. That has never changed.Originally posted by Icemoon:Now then make disciples a bit late right?
What have they been doing in the past? -
err.... so Jews do not have to evanglise? and Messianic jews have to evangelise?Originally posted by breytonhartge:no wonder your are confused, I only said they did not need to evangelise... someone else not me said they cannot because they go persecuted...
the Jews do not have to evangelise...
So does it mean that when the Great Commission was issued, there were no Messianic Jews, therefore this commission was not fulfilled because those who can fulfil it does not exist back then.... that being the case those that did the actual leg work actually don't need to do...hah?
In other words, because those who should be doing the real evangelism does not exist, those who did the evangelism got it all wrong.... and after 2000 years, the real workers turn up, and now need to clean up the crap???
Then you guys got to work faster man! Too much crap to clean up.... -
That is the difference between your viewpoint and mind, you take all the lessons on Hashems ways as educational, but I view it as necessity.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Hey, I am sure there are now plenty of Messianic Jews doing just that.... abet, 2000 years later than when the Great Commission was issued. I am quite sure that these Messianic Jews WILL have some levels of success. I am NOT even quarrelling with the doctrines and changes that may or may not occur. I have even attended a session where a Jew (probably a Messianic one) shared with my congregation on the various items of worship in the Hebrew context and found it to be educational.
I am only saying: there is no need to for all the hostile postulation about what was and was not done correctly! You want to change the world? Do it constructively! Bad mouthing those who do not agree with your mindset is not the way!
How do you constructively put the fact that the church got it wrong? They got it wrong, no matter how you want to try and sugar coat it, the fact is they got it wrong and this will still sting.
I am not bad mouthing as you say, just pointing out the errors which were committed.