can our conscience be trusted???
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well, humans r all given a conscience n its inevitable tat we place plenty of trust in tis conscience of ours...very often when we make choices, do things in life, we rely on our conscience(or gut feeling) to determine wad choices to make n whether we r doing the rite thing...however, theres a qn tat can be asked...juz how trustable r our conscience? can we rely on it totally?
we noe tat no man is perfect...hence its also nt wrong to say tat we can make mistakes n do wrong things...wif reference to my other thread 'clear or dead conscience', its perhaps nt too much to say tat "an imperfect being can nvr have a perfect conscience"..hence no man has a perfect conscience...so then can be trust fully in our conscience??? the answer seems obvious...yet many stil choose to lead life based on their conscience, opting for the "trusting myself is the safest approach"...such r usually the ones who dun believe in a god or they refuse to commit themselves to a god...they feel tat the safest approach is to trust in themselves...oh well, i will explain more abt the flaws in their apporach in my future posts in tis thread...
meantime, do posts ur answers to the thread title... -
so then wad is rite n wad is wrong? or is there no absolute rite or wrong in tis world? how do we judge rite from wrong? can we use our imperfect conscience to determine rite from wrong?
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my question is what do you use as a determination for what is right and what is wrong??Originally posted by despondent:so then wad is rite n wad is wrong? or is there no absolute rite or wrong in tis world? how do we judge rite from wrong? can we use our imperfect conscience to determine rite from wrong? -
as a christian, of cuz my guide to wads rite n wrong is the bible...but i noe many non-religious ppl wil use their conscience or feelings as their guide...so tis thread is to ask them if such guides can be trusted...u see, everyone noes man is nt perfect but yet foolishly we stil choose to use our conscience which is imperfect as our guide to rite n wrong...perhaps they feel tat even though we r inperfect, our conscience is perfect...a contradiction so it seems...or maybe they feel tat since they cun trust anything or anyone; given tat nothing in tis world is perfect, they choose to trust themselves as a 'play safe' approach...then when they r faced wif so many different opinions other then their own, they then conclude tat...well maybe theres no absolute rite or wrong in tis world...juz a matter of perspective...
but for those who believe tat theres indeed heaven n hell n tat the way to heaven is by doing gd...i have more to share abt tis...wil do so in my next post...meantime, keep ur qns n comments coming...thanx... -
errr... I think you just answered your own question, from what I can gather form you, it seems to me that our consicience outside of guidence and temperance by the Ruach Hakodesh as well as the principles in the Torah and Tanakh cannot be trusted to help us establish the basis for determining what right and wrong is.Originally posted by despondent:as a christian, of cuz my guide to wads rite n wrong is the bible...but i noe many non-religious ppl wil use their conscience or feelings as their guide...so tis thread is to ask them if such guides can be trusted...u see, everyone noes man is nt perfect but yet foolishly we stil choose to use our conscience which is imperfect as our guide to rite n wrong...perhaps they feel tat even though we r inperfect, our conscience is perfect...a contradiction so it seems...or maybe they feel tat since they cun trust anything or anyone; given tat nothing in tis world is perfect, they choose to trust themselves as a 'play safe' approach...then when they r faced wif so many different opinions other then their own, they then conclude tat...well maybe theres no absolute rite or wrong in tis world...juz a matter of perspective...
but for those who believe tat theres indeed heaven n hell n tat the way to heaven is by doing gd...i have more to share abt tis...wil do so in my next post...meantime, keep ur qns n comments coming...thanx...
In order for one to determine what is right and what is wrong, we need to have the guidelines by which one knows how to consider and determine what right and wrong are, hence in our ever sliding and changing moral value of society today, it is a difficult proposition indeed. -
most of the time it can be trusted. but sometimes(very rare) it does not work correctly...Originally posted by despondent:well, humans r all given a conscience n its inevitable tat we place plenty of trust in tis conscience of ours...very often when we make choices, do things in life, we rely on our conscience(or gut feeling) to determine wad choices to make n whether we r doing the rite thing...however, theres a qn tat can be asked...juz how trustable r our conscience? can we rely on it totally?
we noe tat no man is perfect...hence its also nt wrong to say tat we can make mistakes n do wrong things...wif reference to my other thread 'clear or dead conscience', its perhaps nt too much to say tat "an imperfect being can nvr have a perfect conscience"..hence no man has a perfect conscience...so then can be trust fully in our conscience??? the answer seems obvious...yet many stil choose to lead life based on their conscience, opting for the "trusting myself is the safest approach"...such r usually the ones who dun believe in a god or they refuse to commit themselves to a god...they feel tat the safest approach is to trust in themselves...oh well, i will explain more abt the flaws in their apporach in my future posts in tis thread...
meantime, do posts ur answers to the thread title...
A simple analogy:
You know stealing is wrong, but you feel happy doing it.
Know = our mind
Feel = conscience
A normal person will know stealing is wrong and feel guilty about it. -
skibi, read one of my threads posted very early on...its expired alredi but u can look it up in the same forum...i toked abt having a dead or clear conscience...when our conscience is dead to a certain wrong, we can commit the wrong without feeling guilty at all...so my qn is: juz cos we dun feel guilty, does it mean we r nt in the wrong???
one more thing, if man is imperfect, how can we have a perfect conscience??? like u said our mind noes its wrong, then if our conscience is perfect n also noe everything from rite to wrong, then would we stil be happy doing wrong???if we can go against our conscience which is perfect, then i wonder if its realli perfect in the 1st place...perfect means flawless...if we can go against our conscience which is perfect, then wouldnt tat make man a perfect being??? -
Uh huh........
Yours can't arh....?
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like i said, we wun noe if our conscience is dead to a certain wrong or not...we tink our conscience can be trusted cos it tells us each time when we r wrong...BUT wad abt those times when it either tells us nothing or tells us we have done nothing wrong? is it accurate 100% of the time? tats wad i mean by a perfect conscience...meaning a conscience tat can nvr be wrong...if our conscience can nvr be wrong...n our minds also can nvr be wrong...then isnt man a perfect being??? one who noes PERFECTLY rite from wrong...can nvr make mistakes, can nvr err?? in other words, when our conscience dun feel guilty, doea it mean we r DEFINITELY rite? tat we have DEFINITELY nt done anything wrong?
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there is no eal right or wrong, therefore, there is no real question whether your conscience is a good judge of right or wrong
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tisd thread is onli applicable to those who believe thers rite n wrong in tis world...ppl who believe theres no rite or wrong need nt answer...
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i believe there is right and wrong, each individual has his or her own right and wrong. but there is no real, universal right or wrong
so i can post here hor? -
sorry no...cos to have individual's own rite n wrong is as gd as saying tat theres no rite or wrong cos everyone's own rite n wrong r different...rite to u may be wrong to me...tis means dunno whether rite or wrong...so u cun post here...though i cun stop u if u wan to cont posting here...
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feel free to post... but as to a universal right and wrong, some would disagree with you...Originally posted by hisoka:i believe there is right and wrong, each individual has his or her own right and wrong. but there is no real, universal right or wrong
so i can post here hor?
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this is the problem with society today... that they toy with the idea that there is no real right and no real wrong, I just do whatever feels right to me and its ok... what sort of logic is that?Originally posted by hisoka:there is no eal right or wrong, therefore, there is no real question whether your conscience is a good judge of right or wrong -
theres actually no logic, brey...on the basis tat heaven n hell exist n tat gd goes heaven n bad goes hell, i wonder wad determines our destiny...who then is the judge? if we r our own judge, then who wil judge himself to hell??? wil tok more abt tis soon...
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ok...i am back to give a more detailed account as i promised earlier...b4 i go into it, 1st i muz state tat the context of tis issue is tat heaven n hell do exist n ppl wil end up in either one of them after they die...heaven is defined as a place for the gd n hell a place for the bad...
so then, lets look at how we can get to heaven or hell...from christian perspective, its by accepting christ n by God's grace...from non-christian perspective, mostly its by the accumulation of our gd works or merits while on earth...since tis thread is abt our conscience, lets focus on the non-christian perspective...
1st, i guess most of us, if nt all wil agree tat no human is perfect...we r all prone to doing wrong n making mistakes...however, on the basis tat the way to heaven is by accumulating more merits than demerits, then we have to ask ourselves wad is meritorious n wad is nt...so the qn is: wad do we use to judge gd from bad? the most common thing humans use is our conscience...its true tat our conscience acts as a guide as to how to lead our lives but juz how accurate is it? if the human conscience is a perfect guide, then there shld exist a perfect n universal standard among humans...sadly, tats nt the case..while we live our lives by our conscience, its easy to note tat we have different set of values n perspective of wads rite n wrong...sometimes, our perspective of rite n wrong may contradict each other...then my qn is: if the human conscience is perfect, y then r there contradictions? to illustrate tis pt, let me ask everyone a qn: if u were to rob the rich n give wad u robbed to the poor, have u done rite or wrong? i can assure u tat some wil say its rite n some wil say its wrong...rite cos u r doing a gd deed by helping the poor, some may say...but others wil say tat stealing itself is wrong, dun care wad u do wif the money...ah, nw i ask: who is rite? both sets of ppl r lead by their conscience in a way, but how come their conscience give them contradicting answers?
u may say well our conscience tells us perfectly wads rite n wrong, juz tat we choose to go against it...tats onli partially true cos there r ppl who realli believe wad they do is rite...their conscience tells them they r doing rite...give u a real life example...the 9-11 incident was done by terrorists...nw we have read abt them n seen them on tv, were they going against their conscience when they did those cruel acts? they even gave praise to Allah n were nt the least remorseful...i noe tat from their perspective they believe they were doing rite...but is tat realli so? from outsiders' perspective, they were wrong...brainwashed, some may say...to me, its nt juz brainwashed, its having a dead conscience, a conscience tats stil in them but has lost its ability to tell rite from wrong...so many would believe such ppl deserve to go to hell but its a fact tat these terrorists believe tat they wil go heaven cos they believe they have done sth gd...so then, who is rite? would a perfect conscience give us contradicting answers?
humans may say...well destiny lies in our own hands...tats as gd as saying tat we r our own judge...nw, tis is where things get complicated...if we were our own judge, 1stly would we judge ourselves deserving to go hell??? how many of us sincerely believe we wil do tat to ourselves? even the most condemned criminal who is going to die wil appeal to the president abt his sentence...y is tat? at the end of the day, we refuse to judge ourselves deserving of hell/death for wad we did...we try ways n means to justify our actions, to prove tat we had gd reasons for doing wrong...reasons like well, tat person deserved to die, i was onli doing the world a favour...or how abt tis? i needed money badly so i decided to traffick drugs, nothing wrong i was juz trying to feed myself...nw, i agree tat nt many r like tat...i am thankful tat there r more non-criminals in tis world than criminals...but my pt is tis: can man be a gd judge of his own destiny if he is constantly trying to justify his own wrongdoings or worse, blame others for the wrongs he did? its easy for a non-smoker to say tat smoking is wrong...its easy for a non-murderer to say tat all murderers shld be sentenced to death...but wad if WE OURSELVES r the smokers or the murderers??? would WE say tat smoking is wrong n tat WE deserve to be sentenced to death cos WE committed murder?
it has always been a norm for humans to accuse the other parties for doing wrong...but its nt so easy for us to say tat we have done wrong...its usually others who wil judge us for doing wrong...even then we stil may nt tink we have done wrong if our 'perfect' conscience didnt tell us we have done wrong...either tat, or we wil try to give reasons to cover up wad we did...tink of tis...one man says...lying is wrong, it doesnt matter if its a white lie or 'black' lie...another man says: if one can give a gd reason for lying, then theres nothing wrong wif lying...these 2 men have contradicting views abt the issue of lying...nw assuming tat theres heaven n hell n tat man determines his own destiny ie. whether he goes heaven or hell, then doesnt it seems like both these men wil go heaven? so u wil have a truthful man n a liar in heaven simply cos they themselves determined they have done no wrong...how abt tis: one man says tat abortion for wadever reason is wrong, another says tat abortion for 'gd' reasons like the gal got pregnant thru being raped is perfectly ok...so wad wil we end up wif? a man who is against abortion n a man who supports abortion wil both be in heaven???
nw then, one may argue...but its nt abt one wrong tat condemns u to hell, its abt which is more? gd deeds or bad deeds? well, 1stly, since the day we were born, how many of us actually keep track of the number of rites n wrongs we have done? if we dun do tis, how do we noe which is more? 2ndly, wad determines rite or wrong? if we r going to judge it based on how we feel n based on whether we have 'gd' enuff reasons to justify wad we do, then we may as well say tat we have done no wrong in our lives...some may argue, well use wad others tell u as a guide whether u r rite or wrong...lets nt forget tat these 'others' whom we r toking abt r also imperfect human beings themselves...so wad they say may nt be correct...even if we go by the saying: "majority is always rite"...it stil wun help cos we noe tat every man is selfish...so since all r selfish, does it mean tat selfishness itself is rite? but notice how often we say things like: well, if i care for others, who wil care for me? tis world is full of selfish ppl...i am juz protecting myself...by saying such things we r trying to justify tat its ok for us to be selfish cos everyone is like tat...wif attitudes like tis, can man stil be his own judge whether he shld go heaven or hell?
so finally, if heaven n hell do exist...then it makes logical sense tat there muz be a supreme leader for each of the 2 realms...so how then can we get to heaven??? if heaven belongs to a supreme leader or God then the way there muz be to obey his rules n commands...so merits n demerits r according to tis supreme leader or God...its no longer according to how we judge ourselves...tis means one thing..there muz be a universal set of truth...tink of tis: would a man who is the head of the house tell one if his children...go n rob from the rich n bring home the money n tell the other child...go n be a blessing to others, give to the poor, stealing is wrong??? or would he tell one child: its ok to lie as long as u have a gd reason n tell another child: lying is wrong regardless of ur reasons??? wad does tis show? there can onli be one way to heaven...all ways DO NT lead to heaven...when u study religions, u wil realise tat there r contradictions among all of them...hence, its NT POSSIBLE for all ways to lead to heaven...if nt, heaven wil be a place of confusion...so then how do we noe which religion is correct? i urge those of us who r realli interested abt heaven n hell to go find out...read up on the various religions, observe ur surroundings, then try to match wad the different scriptures say abt tis world n the future...'God' is often describe as a perfect being n if theres a judge in heaven then he has to be a perfect being...a perfect being cun make mistakes...hence the scripture tat records wif 100% accuracy abt the world n the future would point to the rite religion n rite God...we have a lifetime to find tis out...use tis lifetime wisely...