South Korea selects the F-15K!!
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Amid protests in the streets by anti-Yank activists over feelings that the decision was politically motivated(justified if you ask me). No...not because they're Rafale or Typhoon fans...
Actually with the recent reports, I had already expected a F-15 win. And after all is said and done, the military ultimately answers to the government, not the other way round...
Still a bit pissed off though, and hope that the RSAF decision is more merit based than this one.
And YourFather, I don't intend to go into the Rafale vs. Typhoon argument again...
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LOL, alright alright, I'll grant you reprieve this time....
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Your charity humbles me....yeah right!!Originally posted by YourFather:LOL, alright alright, I'll grant you reprieve this time....
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 28 March 2002).] -
Wait a sec! Last I checked, the Eagle hasn't been officially chosen yet. They have only completed the FIRST phase, where technical capabilities, O&M costs, tech transfer and compatibility have been considered. At the end of this phase, BOTH THE EAGLE AND RAFALE have been downselected. This is because both of them failed to beat each other by more than 3% in the 1st stage evaluation. So technically, the Eagle hasn't won yet.
Thus the selection goes on to the second phase. On the second phase, however, "is expected to focus heavily on the new fighters' interoperability with allied U.S. forces". So the Eagle is virtually assured a win :-)
In this sense, the decision making process isn't totally unfair. And it would be quite naive (no offence!) to believe that arms purchases can be totally separated from politics. 99% of arms purchases have a certain amont of politics involved. You wont believe how many arms purchses around the world have been such that the best candidate for the arms forces is not chosen because of politics.
(on a side note, what was said about the Rafale being the best plane may not hold water, after the S.Korean Colonel which was charged with receiving bribes from Dassault was also found to be the one who 'leaked' the report that the Rafale was the better plane) -
No offence taken. I have already stated that in the end the military answers to the government(ie the poiticians) so I was expecting an F-15 win anyway...
Kickbacks are a fact of life in the weapons trade. The cynical might say that the winner of any contracts are always the ones that give the most kickbacks. In this case maybe Dassault just forgot to pay off someone powerful who torpedoed their bid by arreting the colonel...who knows??? -
... and the biggest winner of all is..... Boeing !!!!Originally posted by Viper52:No offence taken. I have already stated that in the end the military answers to the government(ie the poiticians) so I was expecting an F-15 win anyway...
Kickbacks are a fact of life in the weapons trade. The cynical might say that the winner of any contracts are always the ones that give the most kickbacks. In this case maybe Dassault just forgot to pay off someone powerful who torpedoed their bid by arreting the colonel...who knows???
RoK armed forces are known to take bribes. Taiwanese one as well... At least we know that Mindef does not (or at least publicly ... hee hee
)
Anyway, the RoK purchases will keep the Americans happy for a while because Boeing does not have to close their F-15 plant for a while. USAF will still be able to get cheaper parts or a handful of attrition replacements....
As for RSAF, I've got the feeling that Rafale or Typhoon will prevail... we are starting to see a trend that Mindef is slowing moving full reliance on US made equipment to more Israeli and European made stuffs...
My gut feelings say that it will be a race between Rafale and Typhoon, and may the best plane win - Oh, dark horse is of course the much "disliked" Super bugs.... -
... and the biggest winner of all is..... Boeing !!!!Originally posted by Viper52:No offence taken. I have already stated that in the end the military answers to the government(ie the poiticians) so I was expecting an F-15 win anyway...
Kickbacks are a fact of life in the weapons trade. The cynical might say that the winner of any contracts are always the ones that give the most kickbacks. In this case maybe Dassault just forgot to pay off someone powerful who torpedoed their bid by arreting the colonel...who knows???
RoK armed forces are known to take bribes. Taiwanese one as well... At least we know that Mindef does not (or at least publicly ... hee hee)
Anyway, the RoK purchases will keep the Americans happy for a while because Boeing does not have to close their F-15 plant for a while. USAF will still be able to get cheaper parts or a handful of attrition replacements....
As for RSAF, I've got the feeling that Rafale or Typhoon will prevail... we are starting to see a trend that Mindef is slowing moving full reliance on US made equipment to more Israeli and European made stuffs...
My gut feelings say that it will be a race between Rafale and Typhoon, and may the best plane win -
More updates...
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Dassault goes to court over Korean F-X selection process
4 April 2002
By Henry Wilson, DSD's contributing reporter
French manufacturers Dassault are pursuing legal avenues in a last ditch attempt to secure the lucrative South Korean F-X fighter contract. The strong links between the US and Korean government's look likely to sway the final judgement on the tender the way of Boeing's F-15K rather than Dassault's Rafale, but the French insist that changes to the selection process have been unfair and are seeking to delay the final decision.
The $4 billion project to acquire 40 new fighter aircraft has run into difficulties since the bidding process was begun in 1997. Civilian analysts and politicians alike have questioned the transparency and legitimacy of the selection process, and leaks regarding the relative merits of the competitors have appeared in the press. The final straw for Dassault seems to have been the decision to add "political and defence considerations" into the selection criteria.
"I question the fairness of the results, the fairness of the process and the fairness of the position of the Korean authorities," said Dassault's Vice president for international relations Yves Robins. He announced that Dassault would be seeking an injunction from the District Court to stop the second phase of the process. The first phase was concluded last week when the bids from Eurofighter and Sukhoi were eliminated.
Robins further stated that his company had not even been officially informed of the results from the first phase. "Everything we have found out has been through the press," he said. Dassault are requesting that the Korean government hand over information on how the contest has been judged and the scores for the relative bids.
Dassault have repeatedly claimed that their bid is superior to Boeing's. The Rafale would be $350 million cheaper than the F-15K and Dassault have also offered an offset programme worth $1 billion to Korean businesses. Furthermore, a leaked document is alleged to have revealed that the Korean Air Force pilots testing the aircraft, marked the French plane higher than its American rival.
However, with political considerations taken into account there can only be one winner. The US has a considerable association with South Korea and the two governments have been in talks over the situation with regard to North Korea. There are 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea.
If Dassault's legal bid were to be successful it would mean another costly delay to a programme that has been beset by problems since its inception and this seems unlikely given that the South Korean government still insists that the process has been conducted above board. Failure to secure the contract for either Boeing or Dassault would have significant repercussions. The Rafale has not found a buyer outside of its native France, while Boeing lost out to Lockheed Martin on the Joint Strike Fighter and defeat here would spell the end of the F-15.
http://defence-data.com/current/page14078.htm -
Interesting, Mr Robins was the very gentleman I spoke to at AA2002, I still have his namecard somewhere.
What really really intrigues me is the fact that there are still countries who would cut their noses off just to spite their faces, especially a country like South Korea whos still technically in a state of war...
I understand the need to placate the US as its a close ally and there are 37,000 Americans helping to defend your country, hence you have to give precedence to ths US in weapons purchases, however by that same token, don't you have a moral obligation to get the very best you can buy(and its even cheaper) to protect those very guests and help them do their job?
My 0.02 -
Politics prevails over good sense and logic.Originally posted by Viper52:Interesting, Mr Robins was the very gentleman I spoke to at AA2002, I still have his namecard somewhere.
What really really intrigues me is the fact that there are still countries who would cut their noses off just to spite their faces, especially a country like South Korea whos still technically in a state of war...
I understand the need to placate the US as its a close ally and there are 37,000 Americans helping to defend your country, hence you have to give precedence to ths US in weapons purchases, however by that same token, don't you have a moral obligation to get the very best you can buy(and its even cheaper) to protect those very guests and help them do their job?
My 0.02
I was speaking to an RSAF pilot's wife 2 days ago who only recently came back from France after 2 1/2 years attachment. I asked her if RSAF is looking at Rafales as replacement for Skyhawks, she told me that the RSAF pilots think that Rafales are VERY good aircrafts without eleborating more. I guess this has confirmed the fact that many pilots like the Rafales. Will have to wait and see which aircraft will eventually win.. -
It's confirmed. South Korea selected the F-15K (probably as a result from the US's pressure). Wondering if such case will happening to the RSAF selection for new fighters??
Below is an article from "Reuters English News Service", dated 19 April 2002.
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SOUTH KOREA: UPDATE 4-Boeing wins $4.5 billion Korea F-15 jet deal.
Author: Jason Neely
SEOUL, April 19 (Reuters) - South Korea awarded a $4.5 billion deal for 40 fighter jets to aerospace giant Boeing Co on Friday, opting to stay with U.S. military suppliers despite a strong challenge from European rivals.
The latest version of Boeing's F-15 beat the Rafale from France's Dassault Aviation SA, which is suing to overturn the decision, claiming it was based on South Korea's tight political ties to the United States.
"We considered security, foreign policy and economic factors (in making the decision)," a ministry of national defense statement said.
The deal saves the St. Louis F-15 line from extinction, extending production from 2004 through 2008, and will help Chicago-based Boeing offset slumping sales at its world-leading commercial jet unit following the Sept. 11 hijack attacks.
Seoul chose U.S. manufacturing titan General Electric Co to supply $350 million worth of engines for the F-15K, unseating United Technologies Corp. unit Pratt & Whitney for the first time in 28 years of F-15 production.
A defense ministry investigation this week blamed a problem with a Pratt & Whitney engine for a February fighter jet crash, the third such incident in South Korea involving the same engine since 1997.
The ministry narrowed a four-way fighter race to two finalists last month and Seoul's close defense and trade relations with Washington ultimately proved decisive.
The U.S. has 37,000 stationed troops in South Korea, where the bulk of aircraft and weapons systems are U.S.-built.
FRENCH PROTEST
Dassault filed for an injunction this month demanding details of South Korea's two-year evaluation. The French firm maintains it offered cheaper, better technology than Boeing. A ruling due by early May might overturn the decision.
"Rafale won this evaluation but will not be awarded this contract," Dassault spokesman Yves Robins said by telephone from Paris. "The Korean ministry of defense has once more made its choice solely for (Korea)-U.S. political considerations."
U.S. forces help guard South Korea against possible conflict with communist North Korea. The two countries remain technically at war under a 1953 armed truce, violated as recently as last November when border guards exchanged fire.
Boeing in a statement called the bidding process "one of the most honorable and tough" evaluations it had been through and pledged to deliver a modernized version of the aging F-15.
"This will certainly be a 'next-generation' project in every aspect, and we look forward to building on our relationships with Korean industry through this program," said Jerry Daniels, president and chief executive officer of Boeing's military aircraft and missiles unit.
The Korean deal will keep 1,000 Boeing workers from losing their jobs in St. Louis, where the company is currently building just one F-15 every two to three months.
The deal is expected to include almost $3 billion in jobs and technology for South Korea, which hopes to develop its own fighter by 2015.
Seoul is expected to take delivery of its F-15K fighters between 2005 and 2009.
The twin-engined F-15K will become South Korea's top fighter, with air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-surface (sea) capabilities.
EUROPEANS OUT
European consortium Eurofighter GmbH, eliminated with Russia's Sukhoi from the competition last month, had hoped to land its first non-European order for its Typhoon fighter. Dassault is still hunting for its first Rafale export order.
Analysts say the South Korean loss leaves the European manufacturers few sales prospects in a fighter export market estimated at well over $100 billion in the next 15 years.
Eurofighter is owned by European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co NV of Germany and France, Britain's BAE Systems Plc and Finmeccanica SpA of Italy.
It plans to deliver the first Typhoons to Britain and Germany late this year.
Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain have said they plan to buy more than 600 Typhoons, but have contracted for only 148.
France, which left the Eurofighter consortium in the 1980s so it could build its own, very similar aircraft, has ordered just 61 Rafales, raising the pressure to win sales campaigns currently under way in Singapore and Australia.
For the F-15, the South Korean fighters could be the last to roll off the line. Boeing is offering its newer F/A-18E and F to Singapore, along with the F-15. -
Rubbish. What the statement means is political pressure and arm-twisting won out over quality, economy and overall good sense.Originally posted by wave:"We considered security, foreign policy and economic factors (in making the decision)," a ministry of national defense statement said.