Mourinho: It's up to you two
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you certainly did not include lots of real madrid players that was signed
Mr Zocoss -
Aiyah, he'll say anything that's against Chelsea one lah! Nowthe lies even stretch to JM's old club!Originally posted by ghimpheng:you certainly did not include lots of real madrid players that was signed Mr Zocoss
Think he can't just stand the Blues winning in & out year after year. -
Corrections:Originally posted by zocoss:Real also had to spend within their means, they have to balance their books. Compare to what Jose got, it was still very much lesser. Real bought players in different years. LuÃs Figo came in 2000 and they went on to sign Zinedine Zidane (2001), Ronaldo (2002) and David Beckham (2003). They did win the La Liga Titles during those years. Only from 2003 onwards have they not won the title and that is also partly because of the re-emergence of Barcelona who were very strong during these last 3, 4 yrs who we eventually saw them became European Champions.
beckham never win any La Liga title in RM or UCL champion in RM for entire 3 years since his arrival, same goes as manure. It's a linkage of lose-lose way for both beckham n manure. -
If Abrahimovic had nt brought the club, does u think it will be so successful within juz 2 season? JM is impt but the one who really turn the club around is its spending power.
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It's probably a combination of both... with time, JM could probably push Chelsea to seriously challenge for the title in about maybe 3 years...
the money merely smooths the way for him to do so...
I think he's a good manager soccer-wise... but i totally dislike his character or the character he's trying to portray in the media....
But with the situation chelsea is in now, if Abramnovic was to leave the club, chelsea would just collapse...
The loss of JM would be less disastrous as they have the players and the basics in place... but would the players follow him in leaving the team?? that is the big question mark... -
Yes, I believe most of us know that they played together in a team before but are you aware that apart from Raul who will be 30 in 3 months time, the rest of them were well over 30? And one even retired already with another 1 or 2 to follow very soon... Basically, they were not bought for the last 2 yrs, they were bought for the 2000, 2001 /2 campaigns. Which they did pretty well I would sayÂ… Over the last 2 yrs, Big names they may have been but their best years seem to have past long agoÂ… Its like you could say Chelsea have Drogba, Shevchenko, Ballack and Lampard but 5 yrs from now kind of thing, Do you strongly belief that they can still be playing like they are presently?Originally posted by nanren4ever:Real Madrid had a season when they have Beckham, Figo, Raul, Zidane, Carlos in the same team. They didn't win anything. My point is simple. You can have all the good players in the team, but without a good coach, u cannot do anything. Also, pls remember that last and this season, Madrid had spend a lot too. Fabio Cannavaro, Emerson, Diarra, Robinho, Cincinho, Paulo Garcia, Carlos Diogo, Higuain, Gago are some of the players signed. And oh btw, 2003-2004 season was won by Valencia. Barcelona emerged only the next season onwards
I beg to differ ur opinion that Figo was probably the only good Portugese player playing aboard that year Porto won the Champions league. Luis Boa Morte was a good player for Fulham, and in fact it was after his move to Fulham in 2001 that he started winning Portugese caps. Pauleta was the star player for PSG and Portugal, Jorge Andrade was an outstanding defender in Spain for Deportivo. Figo attracted the most press because he played for Barca and madrid, and also because he had won personal awards before.
You said that Porto dived and play-acted their way to the title that year. U saying that is unfair, because u are denying the fact that skills, team-work, work-rate and a good coach were other factors that brought the success to the club. Its as good as saying Man U, if they win the FA Cup and EPL this year, won it because Ronaldo was diving his way to the title. Which is not true, considering that the team really played out of their skin to win it. Same goes for Porto.
Arsene Wenger, believe it or not has not been an angel either. He constantly denies the fact that his players are ill-disciplined(the number of red cards during his reign is appalling). And he is really not the great tactician we think he is. A measure of how great a manager is how many trophies he won. Arsene has won league titles and FA Cups, but where's the big ones like UEFA cup or the Champions League? This is the type of trophies that makes the difference between a good manager and a great manager.
Also, we can say that Arsenal was unlucky last year in the Champions League, losing to one of the best team in Europe. But what about this year? Losing to PSV is not the same as losing to Barca. Its obvious that in Europe, Arsene don't really get it.
And pls, the constant talk about Arsenal not having the type of transfer budget Chelsea has is of no validity, if u see how Man U, despite not having the strength of Chelsea in terms of players, and having to pay off the debts the new owners inflict on them, is doing so well too. Arsene constantly talks about how his youngsters cannot do the job, but when u consider that more than 10 years ago, after having 3 of his 1st team players sold off, SAF having to promote the Nevilles, Nicky Butt, Paul Scholes and David Beckham to the first team and subsquently winning the title is proof that all it takes, is actually a good tactician, and a flexible mind to change things when it is not going their way.
I am very well aware that Real spent quite a sum too but do you know how much? From the players that you have mentioned, I will put a rough figure on them… and the year they joint too… 2006: Fabio Cannavaro 20 million euros =13.5 pounds, Mahamadou Diarra €26 million = 17.5m, Emerson… probably less or around 10m pounds and RVN =10.5 pounds Total roughly $51m…
Compare to Chelsea 2006: A 30 yrs old Shevchenko - $30.8m, Mikel John Obi A player Man u bought for $4m only then immediately resold to chelsea for $16m - Salomon Kalou $8m - Khalid Boulahrouz $8.5m - A Cole $20m all in pounds Total = $83m. Do you see the difference? And if you take into account year 03, 04 & 05 as well and it could be quite a big difference as some yrs Real didn't spent that much cos this season in 06 they had a new president. Other players you mentioned, Robinho, Cicinho & Carlos Diogo were signed in year 2005. And Higuain & Fernando Gago were bought in Jan 2007 for a combine fee of 20m euros, roughly 13 to 14m pounds only for both players.
Also, I am well aware that Valencia won the 03/04 seasonÂ… Otherwise we wouldnÂ’t see Rafael Benitez at Pool today. Do you know that Barce were second that season? Yes, they were... When I said re-emerge, I meant they were coming back to their best which they proved by winning the following 2 seasons and are still leading this present day as we speak.
Figo was the best Portuguese player to be playing abroad at that time, There may have been others but he was the best. As for Luis Boa Morte that you mentioned, he joint Arsenal when he was only a 20 yrs old kid and a nobodyÂ… His development was mainly made in England. The other Portugues players that you mentioned, donÂ’t even deserve mention hereÂ… and it is not only because he played for Barce and Real and attracted the most press but rather he was the best player at that time that made Barce and Real fought for him. Winning those personal awards just distinguish him as a great player from an average one.
As to your Porto claim… I said, see very carefully… “i still feel that his Champions League win was a rather let-down to football, Cos i still can recall very clearly of the way his Porto team dived and play-acted their way to the title”... I never questioned their skills, team-work or work-rate for that matter cos if anything, any team that is going to win must have these basic qualities in them. Your example is a very strange one but anyway, if you were to trace back to united's games, you would have notice that no one actually dived apart from Ronaldo who may have only in the first Middlesbrough match. Throughout the whole season other than that, do you have other occasions?
But of course you also said “Which is not true, considering that the team really played out of their skin to win it.” But funny that you would single out Ronaldo, do you notice that he is also a Portuguese? Yes, its part of their antics i guess. The first year he was there, no one could deny he dived, his second yr was much lesser… and this season, you tell me how many times? I guess this is part of the Portuguese style of playing…
Did you actually watch Porto in 2003? Be honest... Almost every game you could see stimulation in them, players would be holding their knees rolling around the pitch tho there may have been very little contact or maybe even no contact at all until the opposing player is caution. Therefore it is not surprising that Chelsea gain the Divers tag after Mourinho took overÂ… My question is, do you remember them of such behavior? Well, I donÂ’t! I only know that they became famous for such antics after Mourinho became their manager.
Even Tiger Beer thinks so too... End of part 1... -
I never said Wenger was an angel, we all can see he has his shortcomings too but I still belief that he is a good manager in his own rightÂ… and perhaps a much better coach/manager than Mourinho. You seem to simply brush it aside that he has to worked under the constrain of a very tight budget yearly and yet deliverÂ… The very fact that he could actually take Arsenal to the Finals of last year CL and almost beat the best team in Europe these last 2 years is already an achievement considering that he hardly even spend $15 to $20m per season.
The average player at Arsenal probably would cost below $10mÂ… But the average player at Chelsea would probably cost anything from $15 to $20 million. And these we are also not taking into account the players Wenger have to sell to rise funds so as to buy again. In contrast, Jose doesnÂ’t have the added worry, he doesnÂ’t need to sell, he just buy, buy, buy and he even let go his bad purchases at a lossÂ…
Your definition of a good manager and a great manager is rather oddÂ… Cos there are managers who have won the CL and got sack after or in their next jobÂ… (Probably Mourinho could be next) What do you say to this?
In modern football, a great manager can take the test of timeÂ… His job is no longer just on the pitch but off it too. How the club progress is another area where the manager plays an important roleÂ… If you look at Barce, you would know that 4, 5 years ago they were not much of a team anymore, they were probably considered a has been but Rijkaard took over (Around the same time Jose joint Chelsea +-1 yr) and re-build the team and the result today as we know is they have reached the top of Europe and at the same time respect from across the worldÂ… ThatÂ’s right, the word respectÂ… JoseÂ’s Chelsea doesnÂ’t get the same respect and that is probably due to the man himself and not the club. The way he accuses others, (Players, Ex-players, Referees, The Press you can say almost everyone except himselfÂ…) or pours sand onto his pitch because he considered a better passing team was coming to play... These are signs that will not gain him any respect no matter which club he manageÂ… A great manager? He is still very far from it... A sly one, possible.
As to your saying that Arsenal lost in this yearÂ’s CL "its obvious that in Europe, Arsene don't really get it" Well, you have to understand that every year brings a different challenge and luck also plays an important part to every team going forward. They were unfortunate that injuries and suspensions at this period have come at the same time and it has shown that they are lacking experienced quality players in their reservedÂ… On their given day, they could beat any team. This season alone, they have beaten Man utd 2x, Liverpool a few x as well with large margine and would have beaten Chelsea too earlier this season at Stamford Bridge had the referee called A Cole's foul on Hleb late in that game Essien wouldn't have got that equalizer. What they are lacking is experience... and with that, probably they will have consistency. Something that Wenger could have dealt with if he had more funds like Jose does at Chelsea.
Such things happens but to say that its obvious that in Europe, he don't really get it and not a great tactician is a bit kind of stretching the truth cos he has proved that even with a team full of youngsters, they still manage to go all the way into last year's final whereas Chelsea despite Jose spending lots of millions again have not been in a final at all with chelsea... If you are keen, you can go and look up and see how much Chelsea and Arsenal spent on transfers in year 2005. What do you say to that? Anyway, if you are to used that same way of looking at it then can we also say just because Chelsea lead the EPL table by more than 10 points towards the end of last season, they shouldn't be behind another team by 6 now? Of course not right.
You cannot deny the fact that Chelsea had the extra advantage over the Gunners. In fact over every club... Therefore, Jose winning was more or less expected. Even the bookmakers have them as favourite. Everyone knows this, its not as tho we are blind, there was never a level playing field from the beginning. I have already mentioned and you should not only look at how many players Arsenal bought this last 2 seasons and how many Chelsea brought in but more importantly, you should see how much $ Arsenal spent and how much $ Chelsea blow?
There may not be much difference in terms of numbers but there is definitely a huge difference between qualitiesÂ… When Chelsea went behind Porto in the recent CL, they could bring on A Robben whereas Arsenal could only bring on players like V Diaby and Walcott. So if you are saying that it had no validity then tell me why is jose making all that fuss in Jan when Roman stop his spending? He could have gone out and bought Micah Richards for $24m, David Villa for $40m and perhaps add Ben Haim or Sol Campbell for another few millions small change and maybe who knows... win the EPL title again? But wouldn't that just prove to us that it was Roman's green dough that won him the title again?
Lastly, there is also a saying that you can be the best tactician in the world but if you don't have the proper players to carry it out... Its still just a useless plan. On the flip side of it... You can be just an average Jose but with the right kind of luck and dough stack in your favour... Who knows...
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I am aware of that, I never mention anything about Beck winning. Read carefully.Originally posted by 798:Corrections:
beckham never win any La Liga title in RM or UCL champion in RM for entire 3 years since his arrival, same goes as manure. It's a linkage of lose-lose way for both beckham n manure.
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To summarise your two long posts, I gotta say I agree with some points u say, but I still think that Porto won the CL not because they dived their way to it. Like I said, if u see it that way, it is unfair because there were other factors that contributed to their victory that year. As for ur point about Real Madrid, all I can say is this. 30 or not, it is a fact that despite the star quality in their team, they didn't win anything for 3 years since then. It is proof that u can have all the big names in the world, but without a good tactician or good team spirit, u win nuts. Jose was about to bring about good team spirit at the Bridge, and they are all willing to fight for their boss.Originally posted by zocoss:Yes, I believe most of us know that they played together in a team before but are you aware that apart from Raul who will be 30 in 3 months time, the rest of them were well over 30? And one even retired already with another 1 or 2 to follow very soon... Basically, they were not bought for the last 2 yrs, they were bought for the 2000, 2001 /2 campaigns. Which they did pretty well I would sayÂ… Over the last 2 yrs, Big names they may have been but their best years seem to have past long agoÂ… Its like you could say Chelsea have Drogba, Shevchenko, Ballack and Lampard but 5 yrs from now kind of thing, Do you strongly belief that they can still be playing like they are presently?
I am very well aware that Real spent quite a sum too but do you know how much? From the players that you have mentioned, I will put a rough figure on them… and the year they joint too… 2006: Fabio Cannavaro 20 million euros =13.5 pounds, Mahamadou Diarra €26 million = 17.5m, Emerson… probably less or around 10m pounds and RVN =10.5 pounds Total roughly $51m…
Compare to Chelsea 2006: A 30 yrs old Shevchenko - $30.8m, Mikel John Obi A player Man u bought for $4m only then immediately resold to chelsea for $16m - Salomon Kalou $8m - Khalid Boulahrouz $8.5m - A Cole $20m all in pounds Total = $83m. Do you see the difference? And if you take into account year 03, 04 & 05 as well and it could be quite a big difference as some yrs Real didn't spent that much cos this season in 06 they had a new president. Other players you mentioned, Robinho, Cicinho & Carlos Diogo were signed in year 2005. And Higuain & Fernando Gago were bought in Jan 2007 for a combine fee of 20m euros, roughly 13 to 14m pounds only for both players.
Also, I am well aware that Valencia won the 03/04 seasonÂ… Otherwise we wouldnÂ’t see Rafael Benitez at Pool today. Do you know that Barce were second that season? Yes, they were... When I said re-emerge, I meant they were coming back to their best which they proved by winning the following 2 seasons and are still leading this present day as we speak.
Figo was the best Portuguese player to be playing abroad at that time, There may have been others but he was the best. As for Luis Boa Morte that you mentioned, he joint Arsenal when he was only a 20 yrs old kid and a nobodyÂ… His development was mainly made in England. The other Portugues players that you mentioned, donÂ’t even deserve mention hereÂ… and it is not only because he played for Barce and Real and attracted the most press but rather he was the best player at that time that made Barce and Real fought for him. Winning those personal awards just distinguish him as a great player from an average one.
As to your Porto claim… I said, see very carefully… “i still feel that his Champions League win was a rather let-down to football, Cos i still can recall very clearly of the way his Porto team dived and play-acted their way to the title”... I never questioned their skills, team-work or work-rate for that matter cos if anything, any team that is going to win must have these basic qualities in them. Your example is a very strange one but anyway, if you were to trace back to united's games, you would have notice that no one actually dived apart from Ronaldo who may have only in the first Middlesbrough match. Throughout the whole season other than that, do you have other occasions?
But of course you also said “Which is not true, considering that the team really played out of their skin to win it.” But funny that you would single out Ronaldo, do you notice that he is also a Portuguese? Yes, its part of their antics i guess. The first year he was there, no one could deny he dived, his second yr was much lesser… and this season, you tell me how many times? I guess this is part of the Portuguese style of playing…
Did you actually watch Porto in 2003? Be honest... Almost every game you could see stimulation in them, players would be holding their knees rolling around the pitch tho there may have been very little contact or maybe even no contact at all until the opposing player is caution. Therefore it is not surprising that Chelsea gain the Divers tag after Mourinho took overÂ… My question is, do you remember them of such behavior? Well, I donÂ’t! I only know that they became famous for such antics after Mourinho became their manager.
Even Tiger Beer thinks so too... End of part 1...
Good discussion by the way. U open my eyes to several other poitns. -
Yes i can understand where you are coming from... To say that they dived their way to the CL title wouldn't be fair cos as i have said, that team really had a group of talented players for this generation... VÃtor BaÃa , Costinha, J. Costa, Ricardo Carvalho, Nuno Valente, Maniche, Deco, Helder Postiga, Paulo Ferreira. Players who are in the national side and went on to bigger clubs with Deco being the most successful and rightly so too as he is one of the best attacking midfielder at present. But i felt one thing that made them stands out from the other winners of this competition was they had too much stimulation to their game. Pool won with good defending and hard work in 2005, whereas Porto, all i can say is they had something "More Special" apart from a group of skillful players. That is why i said a let-down to football, nothing else.Originally posted by nanren4ever:To summarise your two long posts, I gotta say I agree with some points u say, but I still think that Porto won the CL not because they dived their way to it. Like I said, if u see it that way, it is unfair because there were other factors that contributed to their victory that year. As for ur point about Real Madrid, all I can say is this. 30 or not, it is a fact that despite the star quality in their team, they didn't win anything for 3 years since then. It is proof that u can have all the big names in the world, but without a good tactician or good team spirit, u win nuts. Jose was about to bring about good team spirit at the Bridge, and they are all willing to fight for their boss.
Good discussion by the way. U open my eyes to several other poitns.
And to your take on Real… yup, they had some big names of this world but reason is, like I have said earlier… If you think carefully, they were no longer the real star players at that time already, if anything, they were more or less the “old” star players… Whereas I think you may have forgotten that the other team in Spain had the “New” real star players… The Ronaldinhos, de Samuel Eto'os, de Decos and de Leo Messi… These are "The real McCoys", Not your Figos, ur Zizus or the fat Ronaldo. Just by the use of the word “Fat”, you can understand that he was no longer the same guy just a few years back running through defenders right…
On Jose, yupÂ… good team spirit and some are willing to fight for himÂ… But I did pointed out also, in the modern game, just having a good knowledge on football alone may not be enough to take the club forwardÂ… A good PR or at least not going around causing trouble wouldn't hurt his club's ambition to be a decent one if not the biggest in the world. Agree? Just look at Frank Rijkaard over at Barce, he has achieved just as much as Jose if not more and Barce have moved forward But somehow with jose... Chelsea seem to have moved backwards in terms of popularity compare to the Claudio Ranieri times. Hmmm...
Yes, Yes... i agree the exchanged has been fun. Its always great to have an open and straightforward discussion with a fellow football fan without the unpleasantries.