City Harvest church founder Kong Hee and 4 others arrested
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who knows if the gahmen take then mayb we willget a bigger gst package?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Wow, then they suddenly get win fall liao if that happens. And with all the property owned by CHC and land appreciation, wow.....
At least the money go to people who truly need it.
Not some people who drinks China wine
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
who knows if the gahmen take then mayb we willget a bigger gst package?
have to wait for 2016 lor.
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I would suggest that we all look at the facts of the case, before we hastily call and hope for an end to an organization which have in fact benefitted many people in the past years (bear in mind, I am not from CHC) in their other aspects of ministry, eg. giving to the poor, meeting members' needs through other noble means. We cannot deny that short of this questionable goal of reaching the non-believers thru the career of one person (whoever Sun is) , CHC has been a successful mega church that have served its organization wide purpose... and their outreach to the youth have been very successful (unless we all agree that the youth should be loitering at Orchard Road or the disco, pubs, ...gangsterism...etc)
So, it is better to be balanced in our judgement and comments so that we can all come to a more constructive recommendation to the government , if really indeed they decide to tear it apart.... which i doubt...
The case is :
SINGAPORE - The Commissioner of Charities (COC), following an Inquiry into the City Harvest Church (CHC), has suspended eight members of the church governing board with immediate effect under the Charities Act, following financial irregularities in the use of its building fund.
In a statement today, the COC said its inquiry revealed "misconduct and mismanagement in the administration of the Charity, particularly in relation to the funds that were in the Building Fund which had been raised and earmarked for specific purposes".
Financial irregularities of at least S$23 million from the funds were discovered, the COC said.
"These funds were used with the purported intention to finance Ho Yeow Sun's secular music career to connect with people. There was a concerted effort to conceal this movement of funds from its stakeholders." the statement read. Ms Ho Yeow Sun, also known as Sun Ho, is the wife of City Harvest founder Kong Hee, and has been pursuing a pop career which has included stints in the United States.So unless , later in courts, the persecution has proven without a reasonable doubt that these monies are channelled unlawfully, to spend on her career, paying large unreasonable sums to suspected companies (like laundering money) in order that the suspects benefitted .... till that time comes, then we will be able to know if there is indeed theft and greed. If the monies are indeed used rightfully to spend on making her famous so that she can reach the lost and unbelievers in the current generation, we can only say that they are poor stewards of the church monies and using it wastefully in stead of spending it on more worthy causes.
I am not entirely favourable towards big church buildings and definitely against Pastors calling themselves business man. Pastors are called to the pulpit because they want to be set apart from the world. If not they should stop calling themselves Pastors and relegate back to being a business man in the church and exclude from holding access to the pulpit.
I am also not in favour of pastors who preach that the church must grow for GROWTH SAKE... therein lies a dangerous personal ambition to be the biggest church in Singapore and also to be the most successful , so to speak , pastor.
Unless if the pastor is so anointed and his success comes as a result of his anointment, and growth comes as a result, then it is only natural that as long as the message is effective to this society of the lost, the pastor deserve every single bit of the success. However, this is not easy, as I see many pastors falling into the same trap all over again. Perhaps this is the only way for us to see the counterfeit and being able to differentiate it from the original.
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Originally posted by Be Objective:
I would suggest that we all look at the facts of the case, before we hastily call and hope for an end to an organization which have in fact benefitted many people in the past years (bear in mind, I am not from CHC) in their other aspects of ministry, eg. giving to the poor, meeting members' needs through other noble means. We cannot deny that short of this questionable goal of reaching the non-believers thru the career of one person (whoever Sun is) , CHC has been a successful mega church that have served its organization wide purpose... and their outreach to the youth have been very successful (unless we all agree that the youth should be loitering at Orchard Road or the disco, pubs, ...gangsterism...etc)
So, it is better to be balanced in our judgement and comments so that we can all come to a more constructive recommendation to the government , if really indeed they decide to tear it apart.... which i doubt...
The case is :
SINGAPORE - The Commissioner of Charities (COC), following an Inquiry into the City Harvest Church (CHC), has suspended eight members of the church governing board with immediate effect under the Charities Act, following financial irregularities in the use of its building fund.
In a statement today, the COC said its inquiry revealed "misconduct and mismanagement in the administration of the Charity, particularly in relation to the funds that were in the Building Fund which had been raised and earmarked for specific purposes".
Financial irregularities of at least S$23 million from the funds were discovered, the COC said.
"These funds were used with the purported intention to finance Ho Yeow Sun's secular music career to connect with people. There was a concerted effort to conceal this movement of funds from its stakeholders." the statement read. Ms Ho Yeow Sun, also known as Sun Ho, is the wife of City Harvest founder Kong Hee, and has been pursuing a pop career which has included stints in the United States.So unless , later in courts, the persecution has proven without a reasonable doubt that these monies are channelled unlawfully, to spend on her career, paying large unreasonable sums to suspected companies (like laundering money) in order that the suspects benefitted .... till that time comes, then we will be able to know if there is indeed theft and greed. If the monies are indeed used rightfully to spend on making her famous so that she can reach the lost and unbelievers in the current generation, we can only say that they are poor stewards of the church monies and using it wastefully in stead of spending it on more worthy causes.
I am not entirely favourable towards big church buildings and definitely against Pastors calling themselves business man. Pastors are called to the pulpit because they want to be set apart from the world. If not they should stop calling themselves Pastors and relegate back to being a business man in the church and exclude from holding access to the pulpit.
I am also not in favour of pastors who preach that the church must grow for GROWTH SAKE... therein lies a dangerous personal ambition to be the biggest church in Singapore and also to be the most successful , so to speak , pastor.
Unless if the pastor is so anointed and his success comes as a result of his anointment, and growth comes as a result, then it is only natural that as long as the message is effective to this society of the lost, the pastor deserve every single bit of the success. However, this is not easy, as I see many pastors falling into the same trap all over again. Perhaps this is the only way for us to see the counterfeit and being able to differentiate it from the original.
Which is why until 25 July comes I think people are just recycling old news.
About how successful a church is, I think as a Christian I do not look at numbers and growth alone. But unfortunately the "Big is Better" mentality has taken a hold on many churches who strive to be bigger and mega in their setup. Such was NOT the mentality of the early church. There went about preaching the Gospel not to draw members into their church buildings on Sundays, for they had no church buildings. But yet they effectively turned the world upside down with their Gospel. And being persecuted at times it was anything but health and wealth.
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Everybody keeps saying "all the good that CHC has done".
Actually, is there any proof of these good works? And I mean objective, independent feedback and not the self-produced CHC videos.
All we have to go on today is the CHCSA website.
CHCSA is presented on the CHC website as the official community services organisation of CHC.
CHCSA has published the financial statements on http://www.chcsa.org.sg/2012/financial_statements.htm
From this we learn that (ignoring the cross-over of financial years) that following was spent on Local Charity:
2008-2009: 327,000 SGD
2009-2010: 72,000 SGDSpending on Overseas Charity:
2008-2009: 411,000 SGD
2009-2010: 0 SGDBased on the 70+ million received, I would not say this is charity???
Definitely nothing to brag about...So where is the proof of all these good works?
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Originally posted by Be Objective:
I would suggest that we all look at the facts of the case, before we hastily call and hope for an end to an organization which have in fact benefitted many people in the past years (bear in mind, I am not from CHC) in their other aspects of ministry, eg. giving to the poor, meeting members' needs through other noble means. We cannot deny that short of this questionable goal of reaching the non-believers thru the career of one person (whoever Sun is) , CHC has been a successful mega church that have served its organization wide purpose... and their outreach to the youth have been very successful (unless we all agree that the youth should be loitering at Orchard Road or the disco, pubs, ...gangsterism...etc)
So, it is better to be balanced in our judgement and comments so that we can all come to a more constructive recommendation to the government , if really indeed they decide to tear it apart.... which i doubt...
The case is :
SINGAPORE - The Commissioner of Charities (COC), following an Inquiry into the City Harvest Church (CHC), has suspended eight members of the church governing board with immediate effect under the Charities Act, following financial irregularities in the use of its building fund.
In a statement today, the COC said its inquiry revealed "misconduct and mismanagement in the administration of the Charity, particularly in relation to the funds that were in the Building Fund which had been raised and earmarked for specific purposes".
Financial irregularities of at least S$23 million from the funds were discovered, the COC said.
"These funds were used with the purported intention to finance Ho Yeow Sun's secular music career to connect with people. There was a concerted effort to conceal this movement of funds from its stakeholders." the statement read. Ms Ho Yeow Sun, also known as Sun Ho, is the wife of City Harvest founder Kong Hee, and has been pursuing a pop career which has included stints in the United States.So unless , later in courts, the persecution has proven without a reasonable doubt that these monies are channelled unlawfully, to spend on her career, paying large unreasonable sums to suspected companies (like laundering money) in order that the suspects benefitted .... till that time comes, then we will be able to know if there is indeed theft and greed. If the monies are indeed used rightfully to spend on making her famous so that she can reach the lost and unbelievers in the current generation, we can only say that they are poor stewards of the church monies and using it wastefully in stead of spending it on more worthy causes.
I am not entirely favourable towards big church buildings and definitely against Pastors calling themselves business man. Pastors are called to the pulpit because they want to be set apart from the world. If not they should stop calling themselves Pastors and relegate back to being a business man in the church and exclude from holding access to the pulpit.
I am also not in favour of pastors who preach that the church must grow for GROWTH SAKE... therein lies a dangerous personal ambition to be the biggest church in Singapore and also to be the most successful , so to speak , pastor.
Unless if the pastor is so anointed and his success comes as a result of his anointment, and growth comes as a result, then it is only natural that as long as the message is effective to this society of the lost, the pastor deserve every single bit of the success. However, this is not easy, as I see many pastors falling into the same trap all over again. Perhaps this is the only way for us to see the counterfeit and being able to differentiate it from the original.
I'll do as you request and hold my tongue till July 25, even though I'm pretty sure it won't have been necessary.
And I won't agree that CHC has simplistically "benefitted countless people" because it has also taken untold sums from its members, a majority of whom are minors.
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Thanks for the objective feedback to my opinions.
Yes, "big is better " mentality has taken a hold on the church leaders ...agreed ..in fact for Singapore, there is no need to build big buildings.. look at so many buildings that are under utilized during the weekends and what the church needed is some kind of creativity... and you know whether they need to build even bigger buildings....
Yes, proof is needed for the "good that CHC has done". looking at those numbers presented, it seems that there is poor stewardship of the money being allocated to the respective causes. The issue is poor allocation. Unless poor allocation leads to mistakes and mistakes leads to mischief which eventually leads to misappropriation. What I was pointing out that in the initally years of CHC, they are well known to every youth (which has Christian background) in town. The youth found a new meaning and relevance in going to church to worship. That is already a big achievement and cannot be measured in terms of funds allocation. Many churches have failed in reaching to the next generation and CHC has in a way succeeded. Hence, I measure this by the fruits. In other aspect, I measure it according to motivation. If the motivation behind the "give more" sermons is to accumulate more funds for the church so that they can squander and allocate wrongly to the inappropriate causes, then the motivation is wrong. If the motive is for the benefits of the individual , then it is a different story. The result of big funds coming in is as a result of the right sermon.
I have helped youth in the past and have big problems dealing with committees in churches who are too conservative and irrelevant in reaching to today's youth. What CHC has achieved , just by looking at their sheer youth population mix already put many churches to shame. However, the issue here about CHC is mis-management and probably poor stewardship since the wrong doing is not yet proven in court.
So, we should instead help them back to the right motivation back in their early days. Where things are much simpler and motives are pure.
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Originally posted by Be Objective:
Thanks for the objective feedback to my opinions.
Yes, "big is better " mentality has taken a hold on the church leaders ...agreed ..in fact for Singapore, there is no need to build big buildings.. look at so many buildings that are under utilized during the weekends and what the church needed is some kind of creativity... and you know whether they need to build even bigger buildings....
Yes, proof is needed for the "good that CHC has done". looking at those numbers presented, it seems that there is poor stewardship of the money being allocated to the respective causes. The issue is poor allocation. Unless poor allocation leads to mistakes and mistakes leads to mischief which eventually leads to misappropriation. What I was pointing out that in the initally years of CHC, they are well known to every youth (which has Christian background) in town. The youth found a new meaning and relevance in going to church to worship. That is already a big achievement and cannot be measured in terms of funds allocation. Many churches have failed in reaching to the next generation and CHC has in a way succeeded. Hence, I measure this by the fruits. In other aspect, I measure it according to motivation. If the motivation behind the "give more" sermons is to accumulate more funds for the church so that they can squander and allocate wrongly to the inappropriate causes, then the motivation is wrong. If the motive is for the benefits of the individual , then it is a different story. The result of big funds coming in is as a result of the right sermon.
I have helped youth in the past and have big problems dealing with committees in churches who are too conservative and irrelevant in reaching to today's youth. What CHC has achieved , just by looking at their sheer youth population mix already put many churches to shame. However, the issue here about CHC is mis-management and probably poor stewardship since the wrong doing is not yet proven in court.
So, we should instead help them back to the right motivation back in their early days. Where things are much simpler and motives are pure.
That the majority of the church goers are youths or young adults certainly adds to the vibrancy of their weekly services which is also a main selling...err...attraction point of churches like CHC. But I think it is also this youth aspect that worries some people, who are of the view that young people are impressionable, naive, gullible even, and prone to "idol" worship, if you get my drift.
Going back to the early days is good. But what I think is better (and Biblical), not just for CHC but for believers in general, is going way back to when the church was young. http://www.alanknox.net/2010/12/when-the-church-was-young/
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when Jesus said to rebuild His house, he was asking you to rebuild the body of Christ, and to renew Christianity.
He did not ask to build it grandoisely out of money.
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the notion of charities must be clearly outlined..
money to resolve the problems of the society is essential and must be raised...but to use it to make a well off establishment more powerful and well off does not constitute a proportionate increase in faith and spirit, but wishful desires of humans....
our edu system must be renewed and rebuilt with greater emphasis on character and the morals....material success is over emphasized - it has now become a paradox, and a dangerous belief of our times.
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
who knows if the gahmen take then mayb we willget a bigger gst package?
You better wake up.
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angel likes me becoc i got a bigger package
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Originally posted by troublemaker2005:
angel likes me becoc i got a bigger package
gst package?
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Chan Chun Sing on CHC scandal: Not always possible for governance review to detect fraud
By Kai Fong | Yahoo! Newsroom – Mon, Jul 9, 2012
It’s not always possible for governance reviews to detect signs of mismanagement or fraud, Acting Minister for Community Development, Youth and Sports Chan Chun Sing said in Parliament on Monday.
And it is for this reason audits, inquiries and investigations such as the one commenced by theCommissioner of Charities (COC) on City Harvest Church (CHC) in 2010 are “more specific, intrusive and in-depth”.
Chan was responding to a question by nominated MP Laurence Lien who asked why the COC’s review of the megachurch in 2008, along with six other large charities, had not uncovered the lack of compliance with regulations.
“A governance review is not meant to be an audit, much less an investigation or formal inquiry to detect and establish fraud or mismanagement,” Chan said.
Instead, the review serves to help charities improve their corporate standards and is done in cooperation with charities that participate in them.
He added that the reviews in 2008 had found that the seven large charities “generally had proper systems and processes in place” and were “largely in compliance with the regulatory requirements and codes of governance”.
“The inquiry on the church initiated in May 2010 was not triggered by the governance review in 2008, but feedback and complaints on possible misuse of church funds received in early 2010,” Chan stressed.
COC’s two-year investigation ended two weeks ago with CHC’s founder Kong Hee and four other senior members charged for allegedly misappropriating about S$24 million from CHC's building funds for unauthorised use, among other charges.
The funds were believed to have been used to finance the music career of Kong's pop-star wife, Ho Yeow Sun.
Chan said that he would refrain from making additional comments on the case as they may prejudice court proceedings. -
closet CHC member
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Chan Chun Sing on CHC scandal: Not always possible for governance review to detect fraud
Cannot detect any wisdom from his words.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
closet CHC member
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Originally posted by charlize:
life in sgforums is surreal
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Originally posted by SJS6638:
Chan Chun Sing on CHC scandal: Not always possible for governance review to detect fraud
Cannot detect any wisdom from his words.
Then audit for what ?
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Originally posted by Fcukpap:
the notion of charities must be clearly outlined..
money to resolve the problems of the society is essential and must be raised...but to use it to make a well off establishment more powerful and well off does not constitute a proportionate increase in faith and spirit, but wishful desires of humans....
our edu system must be renewed and rebuilt with greater emphasis on character and the morals....material success is over emphasized - it has now become a paradox, and a dangerous belief of our times.
are peranakans christian btw?
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Originally posted by charlize:
Then audit for what ?
audit for Drama.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
are peranakans christian btw?
Some are christians and some worship other gods. Pernarakan christians can be superstitious to the point that they believe the good fengshuiof ancestors leads to allowing the next generation onwards to continue to flourish.
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Not always possible for governance review to detect fraud cuz ppl will always new ways and new loopholes to cheat. Constant review of the governance and regular audit will help prevent fraud to a certain extent but it will not be 100%.
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still, a system must be in place than let it be..but overemphasis of systems and procedures will equally make it handicap and immobile...
risk assessment and governance is good...but cannot be carried too far fetch..
this case will become an unprecedented benchmark for future charity and religious developments...this also implies that the legal system must find new guidelines to control and steer such organizations in the best interests of the society ...and not under the invisble hands of the few...