19 Steps to becoming City Harvest Church member.
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
Alize, I have nothing to add. What you write is correct. I don't see what is your problem.
Nobody forces you to join CHC. If you cannot accept the rules, just go visit another church which better fits your needs.
1. Since you admit that the cell group leader will speak to you if you do not give enough, how can it be free and voluntary?
2. You might as well say that when we donate to a church or charity, it is voluntary therefore the church or charity can spend it however it wishes.
3. Since you have no problem with my description, you should have no problem with me shouting it from the rooftops in this form and with the pictures you have provided.
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Gosh i think i am starting to fall in love with iamdestinyz and alize, not that i'm gay, but because of their serious bashing and mocking of CHC !! Shoot those dweebs down man !!!
You know, I wasnt a devout christian nor am I well knowledged in those Bible verses, but i have attended enough church congregations in Sg. And CHC seriously ranks the top as the most FAKE and HYPOCRITICAL church on my list.
CHC claims to promote simi family culture but come on lahh ..
Do you honestly think any of your CHC members will really be there for you in times of need?
About James' friend, I like to ask where are his cell group members now? Why they are not helping this 'brother' in need?
Look at Zeeleewong, he running his mouth all day about this family setting and yet, he is so quick to outcaste and alienate his fellow CHC member, Jame's friend, by calling him stupid, twisting his words again to explain the family culture they practise is SPIRITUALLY only.
Seriously WTF right?
Oh ya, haha, sheep you busted yourself. Look at the pictures you posted.
A big hell lot of dudes coming to Church service in full tie and suits !! And you claim to say NO? Who are you trying to bluff here ? You go to CHC blindfolded or what ?
And Please stop defending your pastorized horse that sings ok?
Answer me this: If you claim what she does is so magnaminous, holy and saint ... why in blue freaking wide world do we not see any other pastors' wives following suit, baring their chests, acting geishas and doing the same thing?
Why must your Pastorized Horse be the odd one out ?
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Originally posted by alize:
BroInChrist, can you share with us how this obligation to tithe and the percentage to be tithed came about?
From what I know, NCC requires that "those serving in any ministry should tithe faithfully".Among other things, they also cannot have premarital sex or "a lifestyle of frequenting nightspots" and are to be "submissive to their superiors".
Tithing is instituted for the nation of Israel for the support of the temple and the priesthood. There was more than one tithe mandated. In fact it may be up to 23.33%! It functions more like a tax to run the nation of Israel. See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id29.html
According to Frank Viola who writes prolifically about church history and church life, tithing came into the church in the 8th century.
Actually, tithing advocates should consider the fact that in the OT the tithes were used to support the priesthood. But with Christ all believers are now a holy priesthood, so we should actually be receiving tithes rather than giving them!
As to what NCC teaches, not having premarital sex is God's command so as not to defile the marriage bed. Jesus had a "notorious" reputation of mingling with sinners because He was reaching the lost. Do believers who frequent nightspots and clubbing and pubbling have these intentions? The Bible did not say we are to submit to our superiors. Submission to believers is mutual. The Bible teaches that we be persuaded by those who are older/mature in the faith and yield to them. In other words, it is not a blinded hierarchical submission but one whereby moral suasion is practiced.
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
The Bible teaches congregations to financially support all those who care for the spiritual needs of the church body.
1 Timothy 5:17-18
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!”
We tithe not because it is a requirement, but because we want to. The tithes are used for the ministries (and ministers) of the church.
Yes, the Bible teaches us to support the elders who work hard at preaching and teaching. But the "pay" may not necessarily be in terms of a monthly stipend aka salary. It is important to distinguish between voluntarily supporting these elders by providing them with food, shelter or money according to one's ability and desire, and paying them a monthly salary. The former is Biblical but not the latter. See http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=88
I think you need to be realistic and honest about it. You tithe because you have been taught that you need to tithe. And you want to tithe because you are being told that it brings financial rewards. As to how the tithes are being used, I think James has mentioned that. A mega church is resource-hungry, and a large part of the money would be for building and salaries to run the machinery and upkeep it, with only a small portion being actually used for the saints.
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
I forgot the poor "statements"
Check 3John 2, Proverbs 10:14, Eccl. 9:15, Proverbs 24:33-34, Proverbs 22:2, Rom 12:2, Proverbs 19:4...the list is endless
What about them? What's your point?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tithing is instituted for the nation of Israel for the support of the temple and the priesthood. There was more than one tithe mandated. In fact it may be up to 23.33%! It functions more like a tax to run the nation of Israel. See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id29.html
According to Frank Viola who writes prolifically about church history and church life, tithing came into the church in the 8th century.
Actually, tithing advocates should consider the fact that in the OT the tithes were used to support the priesthood. But with Christ all believers are now a holy priesthood, so we should actually be receiving tithes rather than giving them!
As to what NCC teaches, not having premarital sex is God's command so as not to defile the marriage bed. Jesus had a "notorious" reputation of mingling with sinners because He was reaching the lost. Do believers who frequent nightspots and clubbing and pubbling have these intentions? The Bible did not say we are to submit to our superiors. Submission to believers is mutual. The Bible teaches that we be persuaded by those who are older/mature in the faith and yield to them. In other words, it is not a blinded hierarchical submission but one whereby moral suasion is practiced.
I agree that believers who frequent nightspots are not reaching the lost, but I wonder if they are breaking of God's commands. If they club responsibly and avoid the evils of drunkeness, it is not NCC's business to regulate how often they can club.
In any case, church members' rights come foremost. All citizens have constitutional rights 1) to practice religion 2) to live by their religion's tenets 3) to choose whether to live by their religion's tenets 4) to be free of intereference to these rights.
Any organisation's, including the church's, rights to impose rules come second to these rights. For example, a Christian school cannot expel a Muslim pupil or deny him time for Friday prayers, because the child has rights to religion and to education.
An example: The Catholic Church does not believe in premarital sex or using contraception, and in the US, does not want to buy health insurance for its members' that covers contraception. The White House ruled that they must purchase the insurance because to do otherwise interferes with members' rights to choose to practice the tenets of their religion. IE it would place their rights to health benefits beneath the organisation's rights to regulate their behaviour. I believe if the question went to court the same answer would be reached.
Likewise, NCC cannot force members to tithe. They can exercise employer's rights to hire ministry members as they please, or charge admission to cover their costs. The source of this right is not derived from Christian doctrine.
A separate matter is that tithes originated as taxes. No private organisation has authority under Singapore law to levy taxes.
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Originally posted by alize:
I agree that believers who frequent nightspots are not reaching the lost, but I wonder if they are breaking of God's commands. If they club responsibly and avoid the evils of drunkeness, it is not NCC's business to regulate how often they can club.
In any case, church members' rights come foremost. All citizens have constitutional rights 1) to practice religion 2) to live by their religion's tenets 3) to choose whether to live by their religion's tenets 4) to be free of intereference to these rights.
Any organisation's, including the church's, rights to impose rules come second to these rights. For example, a Christian school cannot expel a Muslim pupil or deny him time for Friday prayers, because the child has rights to religion and to education.
An example: The Catholic Church does not believe in premarital sex or using contraception, and in the US, does not want to buy health insurance for its members' that covers contraception. The White House ruled that they must purchase the insurance because to do otherwise interferes with members' rights to choose to practice the tenets of their religion. IE it would place their rights to health benefits beneath the organisation's rights to regulate their behaviour. I believe if the question went to court the same answer would be reached.
Likewise, NCC cannot force members to tithe. They can exercise employer's rights to hire ministry members as they please, or charge admission to cover their costs. The source of this right is not derived from Christian doctrine.
A separate matter is that tithes originated as taxes. No private organisation has authority under Singapore law to levy taxes.
Of course there is no command in the Bible to say that one cannot go clubbing. Personally I see it as a matter of Christian liberty, though I would encourage believers to go to more conducive places if they wish to chill and relax and spend time with friends.
Regarding rights and rules I think this may be another topic for discussion. Briefly I take the view that he who owns the place sets the rules. If I run a Christian school (no govt funding involved) then I will run it the Christian way. In the first place I may not even admit a non-Christian into the school. But perhaps another Christian may choose to do otherwise. It's his prerogative.
In regards to tithes, while it was taxes to Israel it is not treated as taxes today. A tithe is not defined as taxes because the church is not the government. Govt collect taxes but not churches. In fact I would argue that the tithe has no place in the church because it was never taught by Jesus or the apostles to the church.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Of course there is no command in the Bible to say that one cannot go clubbing. Personally I see it as a matter of Christian liberty, though I would encourage believers to go to more conducive places if they wish to chill and relax and spend time with friends.
Regarding rights and rules I think this may be another topic for discussion. Briefly I take the view that he who owns the place sets the rules. If I run a Christian school (no govt funding involved) then I will run it the Christian way. In the first place I may not even admit a non-Christian into the school. But perhaps another Christian may choose to do otherwise. It's his prerogative.
In regards to tithes, while it was taxes to Israel it is not treated as taxes today. A tithe is not defined as taxes because the church is not the government. Govt collect taxes but not churches. In fact I would argue that the tithe has no place in the church because it was never taught by Jesus or the apostles to the church.
Regarding tithes, I was saying that the church has no right to levy a compulsory contribution. I agree that today there is no justification for it in the first place.
I assume when you said tithes were intended to support the temples and priesthood of Israel, you meant Israel of biblical times. How did tithing disappear and reappear with a fresh justification in the 8th century? Was it to support the Catholic Church's properties and later military campaigns?
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James and others, I suggest you look for the movie "Jesus Camp" on wikipedia and Youtube.
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Life is surreal.
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Originally posted by alize:
Regarding tithes, I was saying that the church has no right to levy a compulsory contribution. I agree that today there is no justification for it in the first place.
I assume when you said tithes were intended to support the temples and priesthood of Israel, you meant Israel of biblical times. How did tithing disappear and reappear with a fresh justification in the 8th century? Was it to support the Catholic Church's properties and later military campaigns?
Here's what Frank Viola has to say in his well-researched book "Pagan Christianity" about tithing
The New Testament urges believers to give according to their ability. Christians in the early church gave to help other believers as well as to support apostolic workers, enabling them to travel and plant churches. One of the most outstanding testimonies of the early church has to dowith how generous the Christians were to the poor and needy. This iswhat provoked outsiders, including the philosopher Galen, to watch the awesome, winsome power of the early church and say: "Behold how they love one another."
In the third century, Cyprian of Carthage was the first Christian writer to mention the practice of financially supporting the clergy. He argued that just as the Levites were supported by the tithe, so theChristian clergy should be supported by the tithe. But this is mis-guided thinking. Today, the Levitical system has been abolished. We are all priests now. So if a priest demands a tithe, then all Christians should tithe to one another! Cyprian's plea was exceedingly rare for his time. It was neither picked up nor echoed by the Christian populace until much later. Other than Cyprian, no Christian writer before Constantine ever used Old Testament references to advocate tithing.
It was not until the fourth century, three hundred years after Christ, that some Christian leaders began to advocate tithing as a Christian practice to support the clergy. But it did not become widespread among Christians until the eighth century. According to one scholar, "For the first seven hundred years they [tithes] are hardly ever mentioned."Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating exercise. Tithing spread from the state to the church. Here's the story. In the seventh and eighth centuries, leasing land was a familiar characteristic of the European economy. The use of the tithe, or the tenth, was commonly used to calculate payments to landlords. As the church increased its ownership of land across Europe, the 10 percent rent-charge shifted from secular landlords to the church. Ecclesiastical leaders became the landlords. And the tithe became the ecclesiastical tax. This gave the 10 percent rent charge new meaning. It was creatively applied to the Old Testament law and came to be identified with the Levitical tithe! Consequently, the Christian tithe as an institution was based on a fusion of Old Testament practice and a common system of land-leasing in medieval Europe.
By the eighth century, the tithe became required by law in many areas of Western Europe. But by the end of the tenth century, the tithe as a rent charge for leasing land had all but faded. The tithe,however, remained and it came to be viewed as a moral requirement supported by the Old Testament. The tithe had evolved into a legally mandatory religious practice throughout Christian Europe. To put it another way, before the eighth century the tithe was practiced as a voluntary offering. But by the end of the tenth century,it had devolved into a legal requirement to fund the state church—demanded by the clergy and enforced by the secular authorities!
Today, the tithe is no longer a legal requirement in any nation. Yet the obligatory practice of tithing is as much alive today as it was when it was legally binding. Sure, you may not be physically punished if you fail to tithe. But in many ministries you will either be told or be made to feel that you are sinning. In fact, in some churches, if you are not a tither, you will be barred from holding a ministry position. A friend of mine was considered for eldership in one well-known congregation. However, because he believed in giving anonymously (he didn't use checks), he was barred from being an elder. The reason? He was told that the church had to know who was obeying God by tithing and who wasn't. This was the across-the-board policy of that particular denomination. Only tithers could be elders.
As far as clergy salaries go, ministers were unsalaried for the first three centuries. But when Constantine appeared, he instituted the practice of paying a fixed salary to the clergy from church funds and municipal and imperial treasuries. Thus was born the clergy salary,a harmful practice that has no root in the New Testament.
There is no doubt that it is imperative for believers to support the Lord's work financially and to give generously to the poor. Scripture enjoins both, and the Kingdom of God desperately needs both. The issue under scrutiny in this chapter is the appropriateness of the tithe as a Christian "law" and how it is normally used: to fund clergy salaries, operational costs, and church building overhead.
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Oh goodness me, as much as I've attacked the theological rationale of tithing, I've never expected it to be so far removed from any theological rationale at all.
I think the way that some practice it is scandalous.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating exercise. Tithing spread from the state to the church. Here's the story. In the seventh and eighth centuries, leasing land was a familiar characteristic of the European economy. The use of the tithe, or the tenth, was commonly used to calculate payments to landlords. As the church increased its ownership of land across Europe, the 10 percent rent-charge shifted from secular landlords to the church. Ecclesiastical leaders became the landlords. And the tithe became the ecclesiastical tax. This gave the 10 percent rent charge new meaning. It was creatively applied to the Old Testament law and came to be identified with the Levitical tithe! Consequently, the Christian tithe as an institution was based on a fusion of Old Testament practice and a common system of land-leasing in medieval Europe.
It was also at this point in history that as the central Church authorities acquired more land, they introduced the doctrine of celibacy.
They did not want priests to have descendants who would inherit the property of the Church.
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Originally posted by alize:
It was also at this point in history that as the central Church authorities acquired more land, they introduced the doctrine of celibacy.
They did not want priests to have descendants who would inherit the property of the Church.
Regardless of the intents behind enforcing celibacy, the Bible does not demand it of anyone as far as the teachings of Christ and the apostles are concerned. Again this is more the domain of Roman Catholicism, not Biblical Christianity.
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Why focus on money?
Why?
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Actually, how is the situation now?
Attendence still strong as what some people are saying?
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@alize: Giving is supposed to be done out of the giver's will. After clarifying this issue with some mature Christians, it is not right for a leader to approach members to give. We are judged not based on whether or how much we gave, but how we steward our finances. God does not need our money, giving is just one of the many ways we should do to prevent covetousness and support church leaders in their work.
How the church leaders account for the money is a different matter. They are to be good stewards; spending wisely and reporting transparent details for accountability.
@Xiao^P: We do not know how true Jame's story about his friend is. After all, his first post is not supported by accurate information, but rather opinionated. The church builds up a spiritual family that provides a platform for one another to grow in the body of Christ. Of course there will be some others who may desert you in times of crisis, indifferent from the secular setting, but which organization and its people are perfect? Based on personal experiences alone, I know that there're church friends who stood by me when I struggled. No one can promise that all friends can be there for you and this remains true within and outside the walls of the church. It doesn't work to judge Christ based on your encounters with church attendees alone. I hope one day you realize how much He loves you.
@Zeeleewong: Your faith has made you strong. Loving God wholeheartedly and loving people fervently are the foundations of CHC's beliefs. Arguing does no one justice. Some of their points are worth thinking through- Entrusting your life in Pastor Kong's teaching and actions is not healthy Christian living, rather, be open to constructive criticism. Leave them be if their opinions cannot agree, keeping hurtful remarks out of discussion. Blessed are the peacemakers. ;)
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The truth hurts!~ hahahhahhah! hahahahahah!
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so christians only can tell positive things la. negative ones told by christians mean the christians won't be blessed. hahahahahahah!
sibeh ho chio!!
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The truth is out there.
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It's a business now.
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@ NicestRay: I sincerely wish it wasn't, but I'm afraid my friend's story is true. I have lost the energy to post or argue. If people really want to believe that God is promising health and wealth for ALL who are willing to pay for it, be my guest. This is not the Christianity that I know.
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http://sg.christianpost.com/dbase.php?cat=missions&id=1864
The above-mentioned claimed that he has trained more than 3,000 pastors in numerous Asian countries. He also mentioned his employment in City Harvest Church's Indian ministry.
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Wonder where Zeeleewong is now?
Probably someone from CHC saw her posts and ticked her off for embarrassing the church.
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agree that zeeleewong is an embarassment
if my atheist temple also got such people, i also will be worried to death