19 Steps to becoming City Harvest Church member.
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Hahah, thank you OP for making my friday morning so funny.
"--Always check who is sitting next to you.Ensure you are seated next to good looking fellow members. Chances are, Kong Hee will ask you to hug them, or hold their hand. And when, no need to hold back, give it a good squeeze as Kong Hee has allowed you to do."
Damn good idea!
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Brother? Sister? Aneslayer. You seem confused. Let me help you.
"Call me skeptical... "
- I did not call you skeptical. You just did.
"I get goose bumps when cold or listening to certain music or seeing certain arrangement of lights..."
- The Holy Spirit speaks thru me in tongues. Does this happen to you when you listen to music or see arrangements of lights?
"...To use Pastor Kong's adage, "God loves quality over quantity..." "
- Quantity is a consequence of quality. God is showing His love for CHC by supporting our growth. If our quality was bad, God would not help us, and our quantity would be low.
"..."And Jesus said unto them, come ye after me,.... Leave your worldly employments, and become my disciples, and I will make you to become fishers of men..." "
- Pastor Kong talked about this oso. This is why we seed leh. We are giving our worldly employments (tithes and offers) to God. We are God's disciples. The size of our church proves we are excellent "fishers of men". Are you denying that CHC is changing the lives of thousands of people by bringing them to Christ. How can this be wrong?
"...Jesus never needed an army... because God already has a BIG one..."
- This is your own interpretation. You are contradicting Pastor Kong. Why would I believe you over Pastor Kong? Worse, you are contradicting the Bible oso. God never contradicts Himself . You contradict yourself in 2 sentences. Is your faith build on solid ground?
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full ARMOR OF GOD so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
Joshua 5:14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the ARMY OF THE LORD I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord have for his servant?”
Joel 2:11 The LORD thunders at the head of his ARMY; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?
Isaiah 13:3 I have commanded my holy ones; I have summoned my WARRIORS to carry out my wrath--those who rejoice in my triumph.
To repeat Pastor Kong's words: WE ARE THE ARMY OF THE LORD.
Our weapons are the Word of God, love, kindness, righteousness, charity,...and we will stand against the devil's schemes."... also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again..."
- God wants us to prosper so we can be generous. How can you give if you have nothing to give? What would you steal from a beggar?
"...For the measure you give will be the measure you get back."
- Correct. This is the reason why we give. This is the reason why we will receive abundantly. If you do not tithe or offer you will not get anything back.
God bless!
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
Brother? Sister? Aneslayer. You seem confused. Let me help you.
"Call me skeptical... "
- I did not call you skeptical. You just did.
"I get goose bumps when cold or listening to certain music or seeing certain arrangement of lights..."
- The Holy Spirit speaks thru me in tongues. Does this happen to you when you listen to music or see arrangements of lights?
"...To use Pastor Kong's adage, "God loves quality over quantity..." "
- Quantity is a consequence of quality. God is showing His love for CHC by supporting our growth. If our quality was bad, God would not help us, and our quantity would be low.
"..."And Jesus said unto them, come ye after me,.... Leave your worldly employments, and become my disciples, and I will make you to become fishers of men..." "
- Pastor Kong talked about this oso. This is why we seed leh. We are giving our worldly employments (tithes and offers) to God. We are God's disciples. The size of our church proves we are excellent "fishers of men". Are you denying that CHC is changing the lives of thousands of people by bringing them to Christ. How can this be wrong?
"...Jesus never needed an army... because God already has a BIG one..."
- This is your own interpretation. You are contradicting Pastor Kong. Why would I believe you over Pastor Kong? Worse, you are contradicting the Bible oso. God never contradicts Himself . You contradict yourself in 2 sentences. Is your faith build on solid ground?
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full ARMOR OF GOD so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
Joshua 5:14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the ARMY OF THE LORD I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord have for his servant?”
Joel 2:11 The LORD thunders at the head of his ARMY; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?
Isaiah 13:3 I have commanded my holy ones; I have summoned my WARRIORS to carry out my wrath--those who rejoice in my triumph.
To repeat Pastor Kong's words: WE ARE THE ARMY OF THE LORD.
Our weapons are the Word of God, love, kindness, righteousness, charity,...and we will stand against the devil's schemes."... also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again..."
- God wants us to prosper so we can be generous. How can you give if you have nothing to give? What would you steal from a beggar?
"...For the measure you give will be the measure you get back."
- Correct. This is the reason why we give. This is the reason why we will receive abundantly. If you do not tithe or offer you will not get anything back.
God bless!
Totally incorrigible... I'll sweep the dust from my feet and bid you good riddance.
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The reactions from Zeeleewong reflect my personal experiences talking to CHC members.
In my encounters I was dumbfolded by their ability to say the right words yet still not making sense at all. I have yet to meet the first CHC'ers to have a constructive discussion on faith. Even a simple question to elaborate on their belief system puts them in alert mode and they turn defensive.What strikes me is their apparent inability to apply healthy logical thinking. The points they bring forwarded seem rehearsed rather than coming from their own conviction. It feels like talking to an automatic voice mail.
"If you speak English <press one> - I you want account information <press five>" - If you want to speak to customer service <the line is busy at the moment please call back later>
Pinknutri, JoeRaj and Aneslayer are making very valid and rational points in their posts and what was the reaction from Zeeleewong? Defense, justification, kiasu pure. So far I learned that entering a discussion with people similar to Zeeleewong leads to nothing. They seem to hold the only truth and never back down from here point of views. They refuse to consider advice from other Christians if not in line with Kong Hee's teaching. They refuse to explore reason, even if the obvious is staring them in the face. My meetings with other CHC members, many "fruits" of all ages and social class although the majority are students/kids, followed the same recognizable pattern. Certain question will provoke standard answers leading the discussion in circles. Merry go-round making you dizzy.
Am I wrong to find this behaviour spiritually healthy? (Note that I am not judging CHC merely questioning the behaviour of many members). I get the feeling that for many members, only one thing matters and that is CHC. Christ has taken a back seat and Kong is leading the show. Any CHC member shivers at the thought of having to go to a different Christian church. (I asked the question). They would prefer to gather in a room with other CHC'ers than to worship with other Christians in service. It almost appears that giving up Kong Hee would be equal to giving up the reason to live. Am I the only one to find this unhealthty?
I am trying to understand the underlying reasons for this behaviour.
Is this what a respectable church should teach its members? And why? -
Well spoken sister. Do not let them hijack your Faith!
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Thnx Bro - no chance - they quit ordi - whiping dust of feet from loose sand =)
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I find the followings disturbing (quoted by Zeeleewong)
Those who are against CHC are satan followers
One time, our cell group burst out in laughter, and we could not stop
My whole body tingles when the Holy Ghost descends over me
Anyway, everybody is answerable for their own soul. None of my business. Just find them disturbing. Unless my closed ones are involved or else I don't care.
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You are right. Any mentally sound and rational person would consider this disturbing indeed yet for the CHC crowd this is a reality, and the ultimate proof of the Christ's existence. If you have any friends in CHC ask them about their personal experiences. They will be happy to share as their faith is centered around these feelings. Maybe you want to sit down first before popping the question.
The fact that emotions and feelings can me induced and manipulated is totally overlooked.True, it is none of our business. Why criticise another church? JoeRaj mentions that CHC can be considered a church. I would be interested to know what the basis is for this conclusion. JoeRaj, can you share with us?
I have my doubts. What constitutes a Christian church? In my view, a Christian church follows in the footsteps of Jesus and teaches Christian values. Is this what CHC is doing? What exactly does Kong Hee teach? I asked several CHC members and the answer always was: "It is not possible to explain, you have to come and experience it".
So I did. I went to several services, and I was not impressed, on the contrary, it was disturbing. If you discount the element of show, there really is nothing left.
On one occassion, the huge video screen was filled with floating US dollar signs, I kid you not, while the congregation had raised there hands speaking in tongues. Is this worthy of a Christian church? I refuse to accept this as Christian. Jesus got pissed of only ones, when His temple was used for profit, and here is CHC today, hands raised united to floating dollar signs. And I am not even talking about the 4th spiritual dimension sermons, and other things nowhere to be found in the bible. Does a genuine Christian church resort to this?
Kong Hee calls his church Christian, then why does he teach half truths? Why does he uses the Bible to support targets only? Why does Kong Hee run the show similar to other groups which turned out to be cultic? What would Paul have said when he could visit CHC? What would Jesus say about the 100fold blessings, the profitable sale of CD's, publications, and other gadget?
I pray that your loved ones will never get involved yet I also pray for the many young people and their families who are involved.
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You take things out of context. Dr. Steve Munsey used the floating dollar bills in combination with 'speak your future'. Speak your future means we get what you speak. A picture says more than 1000 words, so it supports the words we speak. Try and get it right next time. Otherwise, just leave us alone.
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
In my encounters I was dumbfolded by their ability to say the right words yet still not making sense at all. Even a simple question to elaborate on their belief system puts them in alert mode and they turn defensive.What strikes me is their apparent inability to apply healthy logical thinking. The points they bring forwarded seem rehearsed rather than coming from their own conviction. It feels like talking to an automatic voice mail.
Defense, justification, kiasu pure. So far I learned that entering a discussion with people similar to Zeeleewong leads to nothing. My meetings with other CHC members, many "fruits" of all ages and social class although the majority are students/kids, followed the same recognizable pattern.
Hahahahaha. I have heard so many of these "arguments" that even if I have not heard the "argument" before, let alone been told of its source, I can tell they are not the person's own. They are very distinctive.
Usually when someone uses these arguments, I have been ambushed. They have either launched into the "discussion" with an agenda or shifted the conversation slowly. Either way I am annoyed and I throw off my gloves.
My tactic is to interrupt the person and say "Haha where did you learn that? From ___ right?" They will waver and I will follow up with "Correct or not?". This will invariably yield the confession which proves my hunch right.
How are these "arguments" so distinctive?
I highlighted "that" because what I hear is usually a setpiece phrase and not an argument the person seems to understand.
I left a blank ___ because I'm not mentioning any particular house. The people I've met come from several places and not from any particular one. Nevertheless this tendency to borrow "logic" seems common.
What of logic? Sometimes they're very illogical or logical only in a very narrow sense. Sometimes the phrase is an analogy but the person not a very metaphorical sort. Sometimes the logic is clouded by emotion.
Best of all, sometimes the argument is completely logical or a very well applied excerpt from the holy book. But because I doubt the person's inherent ability to apply it (or inclination to find it), I know it is not their own and the argument stands out like sore thumb. Even the best arguments don't make a convincing case if the person fielding them...
Though I've met smart exceptions, most people who try to "ambush" me lack the ability to wield these arguments in any more than setpiece form. As such I am not worried if there exists a hypothetical Counter Intelligence Corps who has read this and tries to push out a new update. These matters being discussed are of a certain depth, the ability to debate them logically and sensibly is not something easily changed.
Then again, people like me may not be the target audience.
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
You take things out of context. Dr. Steve Munsey used the floating dollar bills in combination with 'speak your future'. Speak your future means we get what you speak. A picture says more than 1000 words, so it supports the words we speak. Try and get it right next time. Otherwise, just leave us alone.
eh... Singapore pools is that way =======>
Isn't the context suppose to be spiritual richness? Or has the mandate changed to wordly richness? God will provide regardlessly...
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Alize, you raise some good points - never looked at it that way.
I wonder if the person is consciously pushing a hidden agenda or shifting the conversation. Either way, so far discussions with CHC members tend to end abrubtly as soon as the discussions enters any depth.
In case of CHC, I expect that a remark such as "Haha where did you learn that? From KONG HEE right?" will not be waivered. It will passionately confirmed with the motto: <If it comes from Kong Hee then it comes from God hence is per definition irrefutable.> I will have plenty of opportunity to try out your strategy on Saturday after the CHC service, as so far, all conversations follow this pattern.
It would be interesting to know how you get person to parrot logic, when more often than not, the person does not fully comprehend the very logic he/she is so desperately trying to convey? Defending something against your own convictions seems a difficult task. Not only is the logic parrotted. The complete lifestyle is changed to meet the new truth.
Yep, you do not strike me as the target audience. CHC Cell groups have to bring in new people, a target has been set. Over time, they sense very quickly if a potential new member is "stuck" in his beliefs. They will not waste time - targets most be met.
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The pools are based on luck.
A harvest from God is guaranteed by Faith.
Luke 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you
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James, you can look at it the way you mentioned. If someone responds to the challenge by proudly affirming the source with a livid passion, it means they are a level deeper than my cases. At least some people I've encountered have wavered out of a sense of embarrassment when they realise their argument is faulty or not self-understood.
Unfortunately I haven't met enough people to survey whether people from any one place are markedly deeper in unquestioned belief (not to be confused with simply being deeper). I think much also depends on the individual's predisposition to such teachings.
There are scientific explanations behind a lot of the things you've discussed. I'm not linking this to any debate on houses on worship because I'm addressing the general points and not the church debate here:-
1. There is a battle between Emotion and Logic (handled by different parts of the brain) in each of us. It's usually one sided: Emotion trumps logic quite easily. For example, an advertiser's goal is to get people to part with money by making them feel they need a product. They are considerably more successful if they sell an emotional need, not a logical one. Emotions are at a level basic, instinctive, greedy, reptillian. As one marketer put it, "the reptilian always wins." You know why people buy stuff they don't need. If it makes you feel very good, you will gladly pay. I think the equivalent in secular people is the pride and satisfaction of buying a Ferarri.
Even in the most logical and frugal among us, our ability to think and decide logically is eroded when we are under (emotional) stress or distraction.
You have to look at why people are logical to varying shades. Does our education system teach critical thinking and questioning of the status quo? Is our command of English weak, so that we don't grasp the meaning of words and and we are prone to an old trick known as equivocation? Do these things reduce the logical abilities at our disposal, and lower our logical bar of any new belief?
While people are differently inclined to logic, a programme has to be tuned for the biggest slice of the audience, if numbers are your goal. You can't and shouldn't try to reach everybody or your message will be diluted and you will reach nobody. Have you ever attended an Adam Khoo talk? I have, it was pure torture (for me) because he was trying to get our emotional buy-in. Unfortunately that means a lot of repetition and hence lack of time to get to any depth. I being logical it didn't work for me, but hey, he's a hit "motivational speaker" in Singapore.
You mentioned the effects one undergoes at service, whether momentary or persistent in time. I've been for an MLM "seminar". The speaker told us the feel-good things, then he said to sign up and pay TODAY because if we took a few days to consider, the naysayers would appear and our "confidence would be shaken". I've been to a certain church where I was told that dating non-members or members of other churches was discouraged because their church's views might not agree with this church's. I'm putting it mildly. Within this youth and young adult Cell Group, permission was needed from the Cell Group leader and Zone Supervisor (leader of several Cell Groups) before starting a relationship.
You might not have met success in your discussions because they take place at the logical level. And what kind of emotions are you up against?
2. You mentioned that your discussions end once they enter any depth. What you've triggered is the fight or flight reflex imparted to all animal beings over millennia. When we feel threatened or over-matched, we retreat.
Perhaps you triggered their flight reflex and prompted them to end the discussion. If you want the discussion to last longer, maybe you can be less confrontational and tell them that you accept some of their premises, show that you've been listening, make some friendly gestures etc. Then more will spill forth, including the chunks of regurgitated matter, without you having to force it out or lose a friend.
Maybe when they are in fight or engagement mode, you have a ghost of a chance of making them come round. Once in flight, you have no chance at all.
Non-specific to any one house, there is a fear of depth or any deviation from the comfort of the rote "logic". Everyone has their flight threshold. When clinging desperately to this, under the stress of dealing with a formidable opponent such as yourself, their threshold is even lower.
FYI for your amusement, one common ending I've heard is " I can never win this argument because human logic is flawed. God's logic is flawless, operates on a completely different dimension and we humans are unable to comprehend it" or some variation.
3. I didn't seek out these ambushes among my friends or take any steps to make them "parrot out their logic". If I do so, I will only hear the old arguments I've already heard.
I used to look forward to the show down with a relish, but it's become so common that nowadays I participate out of pure irritation. I got fed up not only with being ambushed, but with the stubbornness of some people.
4. I can see the motivation for your doing this. I also think the world would be a better place if everyone could/would make the best decisions for themselves. But it's never going to happen.
Ultimately people will be responsible for the choices they make. If they are as well-equipped as any to make rational decisions and chose not to, it's not our duty to save them. If I spend my life at the casino and end up broke in my old age, it's my fault and no one has to save me. Of course, 1 out of 1,000 people like me will strike it rich, but that's just life. I would consider any outcome a fair outcome as long as I am not directly affected by others' folly eg. if so many people lose their wealth at the casino that the govt is forced to tax us to support them. Oh, maybe I could tell people that in future. Haha.
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
You are right. Any mentally sound and rational person would consider this disturbing indeed yet for the CHC crowd this is a reality, and the ultimate proof of the Christ's existence. If you have any friends in CHC ask them about their personal experiences. They will be happy to share as their faith is centered around these feelings. Maybe you want to sit down first before popping the question.
The fact that emotions and feelings can me induced and manipulated is totally overlooked.True, it is none of our business. Why criticise another church? JoeRaj mentions that CHC can be considered a church. I would be interested to know what the basis is for this conclusion. JoeRaj, can you share with us?
I have my doubts. What constitutes a Christian church? In my view, a Christian church follows in the footsteps of Jesus and teaches Christian values. Is this what CHC is doing? What exactly does Kong Hee teach? I asked several CHC members and the answer always was: "It is not possible to explain, you have to come and experience it".
So I did. I went to several services, and I was not impressed, on the contrary, it was disturbing. If you discount the element of show, there really is nothing left.
On one occassion, the huge video screen was filled with floating US dollar signs, I kid you not, while the congregation had raised there hands speaking in tongues. Is this worthy of a Christian church? I refuse to accept this as Christian. Jesus got pissed of only ones, when His temple was used for profit, and here is CHC today, hands raised united to floating dollar signs. And I am not even talking about the 4th spiritual dimension sermons, and other things nowhere to be found in the bible. Does a genuine Christian church resort to this?
Kong Hee calls his church Christian, then why does he teach half truths? Why does he uses the Bible to support targets only? Why does Kong Hee run the show similar to other groups which turned out to be cultic? What would Paul have said when he could visit CHC? What would Jesus say about the 100fold blessings, the profitable sale of CD's, publications, and other gadget?
I pray that your loved ones will never get involved yet I also pray for the many young people and their families who are involved.
I will not pray for my loved ones never get involved. I ENSURE that they don't get involved.
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Did someone say Sun Ho can sing?!??!
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
The pools are based on luck.
A harvest from God is guaranteed by Faith.
Luke 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you
God controls "luck"... Nice evading answering my questions.
Isn't the context suppose to be spiritual richness? Or has the mandate changed to wordly richness?
Luke 18:10~14
Two men went up into the temple to apray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am anot as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I afast twice in the week, I give btithes of all that I cpossess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a asinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified ratherthan the other: for every one that aexalteth himself shall be abased; and he that bhumbleth himself shall be exalted.
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Correct - God controls luck and he will bless those who seed.
God provides both spiritual and worldly riches.
Pastor Kong preached today that we do not have to be very strict in following the Word of God, but also not too loose. It is all about our personal relationship with Jesus. And if we do that, God will show us the path to treasures. He explained as spiritual and financially. (the prodigal Son)
Pastor Kong preached how he is fasting to be more spiritual and closer to God. Is it a Coincidence that you bring up exactly these things in your post?
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
Correct - God controls luck and he will bless those who seed.
God provides both spiritual and worldly riches.
Pastor Kong preached today that we do not have to be very strict in following the Word of God, but also not too loose. It is all about our personal relationship with Jesus. And if we do that, God will show us the path to treasures. He explained as spiritual and financially. (the prodigal Son)
Pastor Kong preached how he is fasting to be more spiritual and closer to God. Is it a Coincidence that you bring up exactly these things in your post?
Yet here we have you saying that "The bible says that he who is not with us is against us. Those who are against CHC are satan followers. "
What you've made is an illegal remark. You will not be sued, you will be charged for it. Do you think these words are incite ill feeling or even violence between different groups in Singapore? This fits the bill nicely.
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"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matt. 6:19-21
Matt 13:45,46 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it."
Luke 14:7-11 He spoke a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the best seats, and said to them, "When you are invited by anyone to a marriage feast, don’t sit in the best seat, since perhaps someone more honorable than you might be invited by him, and he who invited both of you would come and tell you, ‘Make room for this person.’ Then you would begin, with shame, to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when he who invited you comes, he may tell you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at the table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." (web)
The prodigal son was never about worldly riches... if Jesus was consistent in his teachings.... Note that Jesus never prayed for physical resources for himself to bless others....
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Alize, thank you for the huge effort. Very enlightening indeed.
The reason I am linking this to CHC is a consequence of personal "interest".
After returning from several years overseas, I found my best friend to be CHC member. He has changed. He is no longer taking responsibility for wife and kids. He no longer has the time to meet up with the old bunch. While overseas, he never said a word about CHC, yet since I am back he cannot stop talking about it. We talk a lot lately, but somehow it is a one way street. He is not listening.
Long story short: My friend is not an extravagent, emotional person.
6 years ago, my friends was a sensible and ambitious engineer with excellent future prospects in reputable company. Loving wife and 2 adorable children.Jump to today, he is "self-employed" (running errands for CHC) to avoid CPF payments. Income is low and irregular. He is facing bancruptcy and his wife is treathening with divorce. He feels better than ever before, and is convinced that God will bless him quickly.
What happened?
After I left Singapore, my friend joined CHC during a time his youngest had serious allergy problems. We are Christians-CHC are Christians so what's the harm? Instead of the difficult situation at home with junior and the increasingly nagging wife (her words-she blames herself for driving hi in the arms of Kong Hee), he found a group of loving people that seemed to care.
6 month later, CHC managed to convince him to quit his job and participate in Bible School which is a full time program covering multiple months. Knowing my friend, I find this one the hardest to swallow - the person I knew would never do this. How did this happen?
During and after Bible school, he started working for CHC - according to his wife: "long hours and free of charge while I was at home looking after sick child" - until, with his newly acquired "Life"-skills, his pastor talked him into starting his own business.My friend is a damn good engineer. Business is not his thing. Never has - never will be - no Bible school will change this. Predictably, 2 year's later he is forced to close shop to avoid bancruptcy. Today he owes the bank 200k+ SGD. The bank has not filed for bankruptcy (Thanks to God - of course) yet but the sword is dangling above his head.
My friend could care less. He still tithes and offers. Unbelievable!!! Rather than paying money to his wife and kids, or showing some sincerity in repaying his debts, he keeps sends the little money that's left, to Kong Hee. Hoping for a miracle? What freaks me out is the change from rational person to completely irresponsible and failing to see the cause for all his troubles.
True, we are all responsible for our behaviour yet does CHC not have any accountability at all? What about the adolescents?
CHC made gesture, tipping everything in their favour: In these troubled times for my friend, they gave him a 5-digit check for support. Water on a hot plate, and much less than the tithes and offers he paid over 6 years, yet it puts my friend in a state-of-mind of eternally gratitude. "See how great CHC is!!!"
Interesting fact for the CAD, my friend did not sign any receipts for this money. The pastor called it a love gift??? Despite the high salary of Pastors in CHC, it is highly unlikely that this money came from the pastor's (PS- this pastor is not Pastor Kong) personal finance. How can CHC make "love-gifts" without recording the transaction? Where did the money come from?
His wife, also a dear friend, has given up. She is not a CHC member and her opinion of CHC is not suitable for printing.
I know this guy my whole life. He is acting in a way I can not explain. Very scary. He is not acting crazy or anything. You cannot tell the difference looking at him. Basically what he does is putting the responsibility for his life in the hands of CHC. Paying money while hoping for a miracle. It does sound like gambling addiction, doesn't it.
Is this an isolated event?
I had to think about it for a long time before posting, afraid that my friend would be exposed and get himself into trouble. However, I doubt CHC will be able to identify him, as per his wife, he is not the only case with financial issues in CHC. IBancruptcy, divorce and marital/partnership issues are quite common in CHC. Please note: I did not say that EVERYONE in CHC have issues.Secondly, he cannot get more in trouble than he already is - my opinion, the faster he leaves CHC and starts facing his worldy responsibilities the better.
Alize, I have some questions regarding your post but need to do some work - later - thanks again for great information.
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wow, what will this dicussion lead to?
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
The pools are based on luck.
A harvest from God is guaranteed by Faith.
Luke 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you
May i ask if analslayer is also a christian? and also, i believe the bible shld be read and interpreted as a whole... not by quoting several short verses. if going by these 2 verse. Pastor Kong asks for money and he shall be given, he gives abit and that bit is returned to him. Doesn't make sense does it? -
Dear [imdestinyz] I resent your name calling. It is un-Christian and not constructive. It weakens/spoils your perfectly sound argument.
You are right. One can prove almost any point by ripping Bible verses out of context. It is referred to as "prooftesting" and is a favorite tool of atheists. How does it work? You set a target first: e.g. 1. you want to prove that God is cruel. 2. So you start fishing for verses that support your argument. 3. you highlight the words in bold. Et voila - God said it so it must be true. As you pointed out: Total bollocks.
I experienced that "Prooftexting" is also a preferred tool of Kong Hee. I put huge question marks ?????? here. Why?
Instead of teaching a sound doctrine, a target is set. And verses are extrapolated to support the target. Whether you want to prove that "God is cruel" or "God is love" or "God wants you to prosper" or "Arise and Build"...You will find the right verses to support your argument but the effect is a very poor spiritual health. It literally is "Faith built NOT on solid ground"Looking from a distance is exactly what Aneslayer does when he says: "Note that Jesus never prayed for physical resources for himself to bless others...." This is sound thinking.
I ask myself many questions: With regards to "Arise and Build". CHC is a descendent of the protestant church. The protestant church split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 15-hundreds CE (after the "Greek" vs "Latin" split with the Orthodox Church) following Martin Luther's translation of the Bible. One of the main "protests" of Martin Luther was that the Catholic Church was issuing blessings in return for money to build the St. Peters Basilica in Rome. Sound familiar? Martin Luther was objecting to the church collecting money for a building. Here we are today, 2012 Singapore, where CHC is opposing to the very reason of their existence in the first place. How is that possible? How can people forget so quickly? ... I am seeing the CHC fruits, and trust me, they do not taste good.
I also like Aneslayers:
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."Not that it matters if Anelsayer is a believer, do you think a non-believer would write this?
I did not post my report of CHC service of last Saturday, but again, even with little time available, Kong Hee spends it on himself. Instead of teaching, he "shared" with his congregation " memories. Bottom line: Me, Kong Hee has been in church so long, I know the bible so well, while all of you are just little children who know nothing. I am the greatest.
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Did I read somewhere about someone from CHC threatening a lawsuit? And God will judge you bla bla bla. Hahaha for fuck's sake, wake up la. Don't be a moron.