19 Steps to becoming City Harvest Church member.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
i got my letter for IRAS last Friday and my tears roll down
I usually get a few hundred dollars CR, this time I got 12.28 DR
Times are bad.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
There is. That the atheist can talk about this or that being true or false is one thing, but justifying the existence of truth in atheism is another. It is a case where the atheist acts inconsistently from his atheism. For the atheist matter is all there is. Man is the result of an accident, a random naturalistic process. Thoughts are but chemical reactions in the brain. But on what basis can random chemical reactions give rise to notions of truth, right from wrong? Again I am not saying that the atheist son does not know things that are true, he certainly can. But this is not because of atheism but in spite of atheism. Atheism does not supply the preconditions of intelligibility, but theism does.
Even granting your argument that there is no right and wrong under atheism, right and wrong are a different dimension from truth and falsehood.
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Originally posted by alize:
Even granting your argument that there is no right and wrong under atheism, right and wrong are a different dimension from truth and falsehood.
Even so, the same problem exists for atheism. Atheism cannot account for morality, logic, truth, consciousness, rationality and other things as well. -
Originally posted by mancha:
I usually get a few hundred dollars CR, this time I got 12.28 DR
Times are bad.
go any church
and u get 10% knocked off immediately
good deal
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Religion and the rules of charity
Religious charities that collect money are back in the spotlight with recent allegations that City Harvest leaders misused church funds. Yet there appears to be enough regulatory oversight of faith groups, and little reason to add new laws. What can improve: a questioning attitude from the faithful, healthier checks and balances, and training in governance.
By LEE SIEW HUA and
JENNANI DURAISALES manager Benjamin Kong, 39, started giving to his Methodist church in his teens, putting a dollar or two into the offering bag on Sundays. He had simple notions then of how the collection was spent, figuring that "the church needs upkeep, the staff need salaries".
Two decades later, he notices more. The church bulletin carries news about groups supported by his parish, so he senses that cash is worthily deployed. "We also get an annual report and I glance at that but don't query the accounts," he says.
He would, however, expect fuller transparency from a charity. So if he donates to a specific cause such as buying walking aids for the disabled but the money is used for something else, he would be upset.
"But for a church or other religious groups, because expenditure covers such a range of things, people believe the money is going to some good cause somewhere," he says. "People are less likely to question where exactly the money has gone."
Across faith groups, this abiding trust in the goodness and wisdom of spiritual leaders seems pervasive.
It is not blind faith but recent charges against leaders of City Harvest Church, for alleged criminal breach of trust, have put back in the spotlight the sensitive issue of religious giving and how best to regulate it.
The sums involved are large. In 2010, religious charities received $1.6 billion.
That figure would be even higher if older institutions such as the Anglican and Catholic churches here, which are exempt from registering under the Charities Act, were included. The stakes are high because the monies being donated are tied to individuals' faith in their spiritual leaders and God.
The challenge is complicated by the range of religious groups, which differ in size and vintage and leadership structures.
The task is perhaps beyond any one regulator. That is why the Commissioner of Charities (COC) makes plain in its 2011 annual report that it looks to the public to play its role, by "donating with generosity and discernment".
Godly giving
SINGAPORE has in recent years seen the rise of new, rich spiritual players, such as mega-churches. Also, there is a trend of charities engaging in business.
In 2010, the charity sector had a total income of $10.7 billion. Of this sum, the 'Religious and others' sector received $1.6 billion (15 per cent) - from donations, government grants and fees for services.
Religion ranked second behind the mighty education sector, which topped the income league of charities by pulling in $6.8 billion (63.4 per cent).
The presence of religious groups is huge. In 2005, the "Religious and others" category formed the lion's share, or 51.4 per cent, of all registered charities. This figure climbed to 59.5 per cent last year - or 1,245 religious charities.
In all, there are 2,093 charities registered with the COC.
Religious groups may be in a happy place with surging income. But they now cautiously navigate a regulatory terrain that has changed significantly since 2004-2005, when the National Kidney Foundation scandal flared.
In swift response, the authorities set up a Charities Unit in the Ministry of Community Development, Youth and Sports in 2006.
The same year, the Charities Act was amended to empower the Commissioner of Charities to better regulate charities and Institutions of Public Character. A full-time commissioner, Mr Low Puk Yeong, was appointed.
As much as the COC is an enforcer that has initiated 10 inquiries, counting the City Harvest one, it has a gentler face. Indeed, its investigative role seems the exception as, much of the time, it promotes and advises on good governance.
This nurturing role is most visibly played out in its Charity Council. Set up in 2007, it is chaired by Mrs Fang Ai Lian and composed of representatives from the people sector. She points out that the council settled on the best way to build up the charity sector: Balance regulations with best practices for charities to strive for.
So the council introduced a Code of Governance, guidelines for charities that cover tricky issues from board responsibilities to internal financial controls. The code was refined last year and now, compliance is less onerous for smaller charities.
The council also rolled out a multi-million fund for charities to beef up governance through training and IT support, and reaches out to charities.
Room for questions
GIVING is integral to the beliefs of most worshippers. "I believe in giving. It is biblical to share your time, life and resources with others," says Mr Tong Hong Mun, 25, a director of an entertainment firm who goes to a mega-church.
Preschool teacher S. Nirmala, 48, donates to Hindu temples about six times a year. "I don't think it's necessary to look at the accounts to see exactly what it's being used for," she says.
Match this personal conviction with the presumption of good - that spiritual leaders are divinely led to do what is right - and believers tend to open their wallets readily for their church, mosque or temple.
Singapore Buddhist Federation chief executive Kua Soon Khe says: "Most temple-goers are donating out of goodwill and support for the temple, and will give without asking questions about how the temple intends to spend their money."
There are pitfalls to this approach. The first is that the faithful lose their ability to ask hard questions about the amounts of money being raised and how these are used.
Second, when someone does raise a challenge, the faithful feel duty-bound to defend any leader accused of wrongdoing.
Christian theologian Daniel Koh believes donors should not shy away from asking questions, because it is their duty to be discerning in their giving.
The Trinity Theological College lecturer says: "If Christians desire to grow in their faith and be good stewards of God-given resources, they should not be afraid to ask hard but reasonable questions with regard to both faith and practice of the church, including how funds are allocated and managed."
Mr Mark Sng, an executive committee member of the National Council of Churches of Singapore, says the spiritual leader "sets the tone" when he lets people feel free to ask questions. "But if there is an aura of discouraging questions, then of course people feel they are challenging authority if they speak up."
Mr Willie Cheng, a former partner at consulting firm Accenture, who now sits on the boards of commercial and non-profit organisations, believes there is a case to be made for religious charities to be regulated in a "differentiated" way.
He wrote in a Straits Times commentary last Saturday that most believers give with a "blanket fiat" for their leaders to do with the donation as deemed fit. Evangelisation and a leader's influence are also issues.
This challenges regulators when they seek to implement a single approach across charities. "Perhaps it is time to review such differences so that a consistent yet differentiated approach can be devised for better charity governance and regulation, and greater harmony," he suggested.
But Professor Mak Yuen Teen, a National University of Singapore (NUS) don and governance advocate, does not fully agree. "I can tell you that every sector will say it has unique features," he says. And most believers will not give blanket fiat. "If they found their leaders driving around in a Ferrari, I think most would have a problem with it."
Separation of roles
MRS Fang of the Charity Council is clear that "good governance should be the cornerstone of every organisation, whether religious or secular".
She says: "The Charity Council is committed to work harder to demonstrate that good work and good governance are not mutually exclusive - in fact, good governance allows the charity to serve their beneficiaries even better in the long run."
For religious charities, there arises an issue of how much say spiritual leaders should have in matters of finance. These leaders are often held in esteem by their flocks, so it can be difficult to question their actions unless they are blatantly wrong.
Healthier checks and balances between board and management are thus imperative. For religious groups, the board is usually controlled by lay spiritual leaders, while the management is composed of clergy who are full-time, paid religious leaders.
Says Associate Professor Ho Yew Kee, vice-dean of finance and administration at the NUS Business School: "There needs to be clear communication and transparency such that the clergies understand that the lay leaders are helping them to discharge their responsibilities and keep them on the straight and narrow path."
Take the case of a church welfare fund, he says. With their "pastoral heart", the clergy may dispense this fund without checking recipients' identities. Lay leaders set up procedures to protect both clergy and organisation from accusations of poor governance or embezzlement.
To steer clear of such minefields, it seems best to aim for a separation of roles and powers. Let the clergy do what they excel in - spiritual teaching and ministry - he suggests. And let lay leaders manage the administration, finance, human resources and all non-religious matters.
The Anglicans, for example, have a structure of government with a "Synod" composed of the the houses of the bishop, clergy and laity.
"Ecclesiastical matters lie primarily with the clergy led by the Bishop, whereas temporal matters such as property and money matters are decided with maximum lay participation in the Synod and Standing Committee," says Mr Charles Leong, the Synod's assistant secretary.
The Catholic Church has a different structure. Archbishop Nicholas Chia has personal oversight of finances. He chairs the Finance Committee of the Archdiocese and requires each church to send him a monthly financial statement.
The Archdiocese double-checks numbers before they are made available, at the parish's discretion, to parishioners.
Vigilance lessens the likelihood of another Father Joachim Kang case. In 2004, he was sentenced to 7½ years' jail for misappropriating $5.1 million in church funds while serving as a parish priest at the Church of St Teresa. He was released in 2008 for good behaviour.
At the other end of the spectrum, the pastor of a small independent church whose board struggled with compliance issues, says: "We were faced with increased fees from auditors."
Still, he thinks the COC has given "latitude" to smaller religious charities like his.
This is where the regulator has tried to respond flexibly in an ever-diverse religious landscape. The guidelines in its Code of Governance are tiered according to the size of charities.
For example, charities with gross annual receipts of more than $50,000 are asked to meet this guideline: Staff should not comprise more than one-third of the board. Smaller charities are not asked to do so.
This enabling ethos may have helped improve governance standards. In 2010, 95 per cent of charities met at least 80 per cent of the Code of Governance guidelines. This is an improvement from a compliance rate of 80 per cent in 2008.
If groups focus on such compliance and self-regulation, perhaps there is little need for more regulations. Prof Ho of NUS, who helped refine the Code of Governance, says: "We can always have more rules. We need to ask: Will they be effective? What is the cost involved?"
The Charity Council itself likes self-regulation and Mrs Fang emphasises: "We should avoid a knee-jerk reaction to an isolated incident. The Charity Council wishes to encourage self-regulation in the sector as regulation alone will never be sufficient to prevent high-profile incidents from occurring."
She highlights the principle of filling the board with the right people. "We also want to avoid strangling the sector with overly tightened regulations," she says. "Rather than rely solely on increased regulation, stakeholders can play their part to prompt charities to be more accountable and transparent."
The faithful will have to step up to the plate as Singapore's vibrant charity sector spurs a debate over governance and religion. And never more so than now, in an age of active citizenry, wealth and religious interest.
Best practices
RELIGION and money can mix, judiciously. For charities and religious groups with business activities, the Office of the Commissioner of Charities and National University of Singapore Business School's Professor Ho Yew Kee suggest three best practices.
• Investment
Have an investment policy approved by the governing board. Make prudent decisions and do not expose charitable assets to significant risks. Do not depart from core charitable purposes; the business subsidiary is meant to benefit the charity. Plough back profits to advance charitable aims.
• Fund-raising
Make sure that fund-raising is conducted in an honourable style, with proper procedures. Fund-raising often relies on volunteers, who may chase convenience over propriety, for example, by not submitting proper accounts. Ensure that funds raised are segregated, or restricted for the intended purpose.
• Internal controls
Put in strict internal controls, and comply. Get the basics right, for example, bank in money, instead of leaving cash in the office. Get three quotes for purchases above a specified sum rather than going to a favourite member or vendor. Have a clear, robust finance manual and update it regularly.
LEE SIEW HUA
Temple learns lessons from past experiences
The Central Sikh Temple in Towner -- ST FILE PHOTO
TWO years ago, two staff members at the Central Sikh Temple allegedly tried to steal $60,000 from its accounts.
The pair were junior staff of the temple in Towner Road.
Their alleged misdeed was discovered during a routine check of the 2010 accounts in January 2011. It triggered an internal investigation.
Although the police are still investigating, temple leaders say the suspects have returned the full sum.
Since then, leaders at all levels of the temple's management and board have become "more circumspect and more alert", said Mr Karpal Singh, chairman of its governing Central Sikh Gurdwara Board.
The board - which oversees the Towner Road temple, the Silat Road temple and the Sikh Centre - has tightened its processes. It also conducts its own review of governance standards and financial oversight, in addition to regular external audits.
The main safeguard in place is the dividing of responsibility among many people, Mr Singh said.Purchases of up to $2,000 can be approved by individual temples or centres, while purchases of up to $10,000 must be approved by the board's executive committee of 11 people, and purchases of more than $10,000 require the approval of the board's entire council of 25 people.The board currently has three accountants among its elected office-bearers.
Mr Singh said the temple also chose to forgive the two suspects.
"As a religious organisation, one of our basic tenets is forgiveness. People do make mistakes, and our job is to help them," he said.
"The law of the land, we leave to the police and the courts. But in this temple, we are promoting a slightly different law - the law of the Almighty."
JENNANI DURAI
Methodist bishop overpaid due to admin error, but no wrongdoing found
IT WAS an embarrassing error as it concerned the salary of the top man in the Methodist Church here.
But the Commissioner of Charities investigated the matter and found no wrongdoing, only an unintentional administrative mistake which resulted in Bishop Robert Solomon being overpaid for five years, from 2001 to 2005.
Dr Solomon, who returned the $52,700 that he was overpaid, said the church has since clarified several of its administrative and financial processes, and inserted them into its Book of Discipline. This contains the church's doctrinal statements, administrative rules and social principles.
Dr Solomon has been the church's bishop since 2000, and will step down once his second term ends this year.
The changes, which were made in 2008, also incorporated suggestions from the Charity Council's code of governance, launched in 2007. These include curbs on the terms of treasurers.
"The Methodist Church has been around for a long time and developed good governance rules on its own, but the changes we included were fine-tunings based on the recommendations," said Dr Solomon.
Only the highest Methodist body in Singapore - the General Conference - can approve church expenditure above $150,000, and every level of the Church organisation also has its own audit committee now.
Of the systems and controls the church has in place, Dr Solomon said: "They are stable and transparent."
While he believes it is a good idea to promote accountability and transparency, he also worries about the risk of over-regulation.
"In trying to prevent problems, we also must be mindful that charities have things to do - their basic mission - that's why they were set up in the first place. So regulation needs to be balanced finely. He added that this was especially true of smaller churches. "They may drown in the required administrative procedures," he said. "I'm glad the Charity Council has looked at it carefully and set up tiers so it's not one-size-fits-all."
The Methodist Church has tried to help smaller churches with this problem by partnering them with larger ones that can give them training in governance standards, he said.
The Methodist Church's own practice is to present its accounts at monthly and annual meetings.Church members can also inspect the accounts any time, as these are kept in the church office.
But many do not feel a need to do so, Dr Solomon said.
"Giving is an act of worship for Christians, and many don't want to make it into such a commercial transaction.
"But some do want to know, and so we make our financial accounts available to all."
It is "healthy" for church-goers to find out about their own church's finances, he said, adding: "It's the proper attitude for us, that in whatever we do, we build trust between the leaders and the congregation," he said.
JENNANI DURAI
Part D, Insight, The Straits Times, Saturday, July 14 2012, Pg D2-3
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@ M the name:
That is a fantastic contribution.
As I was not in Singapore at the time, I was not aware.
Is it possible to jail a catholic priest but release a "so-called" Christian leader, for similar yet larger scale offense?In summary:
- Catholic priest misused 5 Million SGD of church money
(...Kong Hee: 50 Million SGD)- Despite support from the bishop and believers
(Kong Hee: Support of City Harvest Church and its members)- Catholic priest kept denying until the reality of 14 years in jail dawned upon him.
(Kong hee: Still in denial)- Catholic priest got 7.5 years with early release for good behaviour
(Kong Hee: In relation to crime, will Kong get 745 years?)- Catholic priest re-paid the 5 Million SGD by selling the properties he bought
(Kong Hee: Is it even possible for Kong Hee to repay 50 Million? His house is only worht 9.3 Million...the rest was spent on Rastafarian Rapists (the elephant man) rubbing against his wife.It is very doubtful that Kong will get away without punishment. The worse part is: I am a christian, yet I genuinly hope that Kong will pay for his manipulations and deceit, especially of so many young people. How many young life's will never achieve their full potential due to his indoctrinations. I pray for justice.
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I'd say be humble and repent while still able...
And then someone has to hog the limelight and caused the canceling of festival of praise meant for God without a hint of regret.
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"Humble" is not part of Kong Hee's dictionary.
How come he(e) always have to hog the limelight?The cancelling of FOP: "If I can not play with your toys then you can not play with mine"
What is he(e) trying to prove?Does he(e) really believe Christianity in Singapore cannot survive without him?
Does he(e) not realize that his so-called "MEGA"-Church is not "MEGA" at all?
Every week, about 500,000 Christians visit the catholic church in Singapore.
He(e) is only big in the heads of CHC members.And with the reported 411,000 SGD Charity donations in 2009/2010, CHC is not exactly leading the charity charts. The 411k SGD should rank them somewhere around No 1000 right after the happy housewives association and right before the contributions of the Starbucks tipbox.
Why all this boasting and bragging? Big bubble full of air.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
go any church
and u get 10% knocked off immediately
good deal
Yeah
contributions to charity are tax deductible.
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After the arrests, I had some hope my CHC friends would finally see the light. Fat chance.
When I stumbled upon this funny US idols audition, I could not help but think about CHC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBzwrLd6L_Y&feature=related
The Facts: The guy cannot sing.
The Self-Deception: I can sing like Freddy Mercury.
Instead of facing this reality, this guy persists, even becomes aggresive, to support his belief that he can sing..Kong Hee:
The Facts: He misused money. He tried to cover it up. He plagiarised before. He terrorised (I have no other word for it) Mr. Spoon. He is filthy rich...
The Self-Deception of CHC members: Kong Hee is a man of God.
Instead of facing the reality, CHC members will persist in his defence, with the most absurd arguments. "We sent Sun with 24 Mio to US to convert Christians in Taiwan. -
After the arrests, I had some hope my CHC friends would finally see the light. Fat chance.
When I stumbled upon this funny US idols audition, I could not help but think about CHC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBzwrLd6L_Y&feature=related
The Facts: The guy cannot sing.
The Self-Deception: I can sing like Freddy Mercury.
Instead of facing this reality, this guy persists, even becomes aggresive, to support his belief that he can sing..Kong Hee:
The Facts: He misused money. He tried to cover it up. He plagiarised before. He terrorised (I have no other word for it) Mr. Spoon. He is filthy rich...
The Self-Deception of CHC members: Kong Hee is a man of God.
Instead of facing the reality, CHC members will persist in his defence, with the most absurd arguments. "We sent Sun with 24 Mio to US to convert Christians in Taiwan. -
After the arrests, I had some hope my CHC friends would finally see the light. Fat chance.
When I stumbled upon this funny US idols audition, I could not help but think about CHC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBzwrLd6L_Y&feature=related
The Facts: The guy cannot sing.
The Self-Deception: I can sing like Freddy Mercury.
Instead of facing this reality, this guy persists, even becomes aggresive, to support his belief that he can sing..Kong Hee:
The Facts: He misused money. He tried to cover it up. He plagiarised before. He terrorised (I have no other word for it) Mr. Spoon. He is filthy rich...
The Self-Deception of CHC members: Kong Hee is a man of God.
Instead of facing the reality, CHC members will persist in his defence, with the most absurd arguments. "We sent Sun with 24 Mio to US to convert Christians in Taiwan. -
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Pastor tried to cheat on three-quarter tank rule
He tampered with fuel gauge; gets two weeks' jail for lying to officer
By SELINA LUM
A CHURCH pastor tried to drive to Malaysia with about a quarter tank of fuel in his car, breaching the three-quarter tank rule for vehicles leaving Singapore.
The car's fuel indicator, however, showed he had a three- quarter tank of petrol.
When questioned by an immigration officer, Steven Yang Suan Piau, 47, twice maintained that the indicator was correct and that the fuel gauge had not been tampered with.
But a check of his car showed otherwise.
The pastor with Eternal Life Baptist Church in Kim Keat Road was sentenced to two weeks' jail after he pleaded guilty to giving false information under the Customs Act.
Another charge of failing to comply with the three-quarter tank rule was taken into consideration.
He is appealing against the sentence and is out on $15,000 bail until the appeal hearing.
Yesterday, Senior District Judge See Kee Oon's written explanation of the grounds for the sentence was published.
In it, he noted that two weeks' jail was the sentencing norm and there were no exceptional reasons to warrant a non-custodial sentence for Yang.
The incident happened around midnight on Jan 3 when the pastor was at the Woodlands Checkpoint.
As the car was being given the routine fuel gauge check by officers of the Immigration and Checkpoints Authority, Yang was asked about the accuracy of the fuel indicator.
He said it was correct and had not been tampered with but an officer found a remote control inside the car's coin compartment.
When the officer pressed the remote control, the indicator moved down to its actual level, below the one-quarter mark.
Yang's lawyer Peter Ong, pleading with the court not to send him to jail, said he was a person of good character and contributed actively to the community with volunteer work.
Mr Ong said Yang was aware of the three-quarter tank rule but committed the offence in a moment of indiscretion, panic and confusion.
But Judge See said Yang was asked twice about the fuel gauge. "He chose not to come clean but to perpetuate his subterfuge."
The judge added that Yang's work and contributions to the community were not relevant mitigating factors.
"Indeed, it could be said that he ought to have been even more conscious than most of the need to admit to his transgressions instead of lying twice to attempt to avoid the consequences."
The penalty for giving false information under the Customs Act is a fine of up to $5,000 or a jail term of up to a year, or both.
Home, The Straits Times, Friday, July 20 2012, Pg B15
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Who still don't believe me that times are bad?
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Why is people surprised that CHCabout Senior Councils for estimated 1 - 1.5 Million SGD each?
Sun Ho got 24 Million in 2 years. This means 1,000,000 per month. SC is easy money.
Never mind the poor and needy.In eyes of CHC members - Kong is currently "poor and needy"...
Sick to my stomach
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Which is why i never give my tithes to the church, save perhaps for the cost of the air-cond and worship environment that I experience on sunday service. I prefer to give them to para-church organisations that have proper governance, accounts audited and report to donors periodically whether our money really has any impact to the people we want to help.
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I have emailed Penn and Teller. See if they can be warmed up to the CHC case.
Some of their work includes ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc732uzUkw4
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Money.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Even so, the same problem exists for atheism. Atheism cannot account for morality, logic, truth, consciousness, rationality and other things as well.Unless you think we both don't feel pain and can't come to an understanding that violence is wrong and immoral.
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Originally posted by alize:
Unless you think we both don't feel pain and can't come to an understanding that violence is wrong and immoral.
I think you are still missing the point. It is not about denying pain or morality, but explaining it and providing a basis for it.
Yes, pain is real and felt in its various forms.
Violence is real too.
But on what basis do you we call violence wrong and immoral? Violence in the animal world is a reality, but do you call that wrong or immoral? Why do we not indict animals for preying on other animals? Why do we reserve moral judgement and accountability for human violence towards fellow humans but not animals on animals? In an evolutionary-atheistic world of nature red in tooth and claw, where the fittest survive, who is to declare that violence for the sake of survival is morally wrong?
Can you begin to see what I am driving at? Only theism supplies the pre-condition and basis for morality, moral absolutes, and moral judgement. Pain and violence are the effects experienced in a fallen world marred by man's moral rebellion against God. Moral laws presuppose a moral lawgiver. If you can even declare something to be wrong or immoral it already PRESUPPOSES the existence of moral absolutes or objective moral values, the very things that atheism CANNOT explain and does not supply. Any atheist who insists that there are objective moral values is sneaking theism into his belief system whether he realises it or not, or even if he denies it. Such an atheist is being inconsistent with his belief system.
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"LET'S STICK TO THE FACTS" : What is the biggest church in Singapore?
The Facts:
(Source: http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/popn/c2010sr1.html )Total 3,105,748 No Religion 527,553 With Religion 2,578,196 Buddhism 1,032,879 Taoism* 339,149 Islam 457,435 Hinduism 157,854 Sikhism 10,744 Christianity 569,244 (Catholic 219,133 Other Christians 350,111) Other Religions 10,891 So with "allegedly" 30,000 members, is CHC the largest church in Singapore?
The answer is: NO.
Even with 30,000 members, or less then 1%, CHC is a pathetically small religious group. Hardly noticeable. So who is calling them the "largest" church in Singapore?So what are we so upset about?
Maybe the answer to the question: Who is the richest pastor in Singapore? might explain the excitement. -
And also they also possess the noisiest troll, like BIC
lol
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Found another one... http://exchersonesusaurea.blogspot.sg/2012/07/kevin-dyson-city-harvest-church-advisor.html will there ever be an end to Kong Hee's lies and deceit/