19 Steps to becoming City Harvest Church member.
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
Dear [imdestinyz] I resent your name calling. It is un-Christian and not constructive. It weakens/spoils your perfectly sound argument.
You are right. One can prove almost any point by ripping Bible verses out of context. It is referred to as "prooftesting" and is a favorite tool of atheists. How does it work? You set a target first: e.g. 1. you want to prove that God is cruel. 2. So you start fishing for verses that support your argument. 3. you highlight the words in bold. Et voila - God said it so it must be true. As you pointed out: Total bollocks.
I experienced that "Prooftexting" is also a preferred tool of Kong Hee. I put huge question marks ?????? here. Why?
Instead of teaching a sound doctrine, a target is set. And verses are extrapolated to support the target. Whether you want to prove that "God is cruel" or "God is love" or "God wants you to prosper" or "Arise and Build"...You will find the right verses to support your argument but the effect is a very poor spiritual health. It literally is "Faith built NOT on solid ground"Looking from a distance is exactly what Aneslayer does when he says: "Note that Jesus never prayed for physical resources for himself to bless others...." This is sound thinking.
I ask myself many questions: With regards to "Arise and Build". CHC is a descendent of the protestant church. The protestant church split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 15-hundreds CE (after the "Greek" vs "Latin" split with the Orthodox Church) following Martin Luther's translation of the Bible. One of the main "protests" of Martin Luther was that the Catholic Church was issuing blessings in return for money to build the St. Peters Basilica in Rome. Sound familiar? Martin Luther was objecting to the church collecting money for a building. Here we are today, 2012 Singapore, where CHC is opposing to the very reason of their existence in the first place. How is that possible? How can people forget so quickly? ... I am seeing the CHC fruits, and trust me, they do not taste good.
I also like Aneslayers:
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."Not that it matters if Anelsayer is a believer, do you think a non-believer would write this?
I did not post my report of CHC service of last Saturday, but again, even with little time available, Kong Hee spends it on himself. Instead of teaching, he "shared" with his congregation " memories. Bottom line: Me, Kong Hee has been in church so long, I know the bible so well, while all of you are just little children who know nothing. I am the greatest.
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i did not do any name calling did i? apologies if i did but i merely questioned if anelslayer is also of christian faith. Apparently, zee(from CHC) thinks that anyone who opposes them are satan's followers. That so, if someone like anelslayer who posts questions on CHC but is still a believer of christian faith,how is that considered? Furthermore, the way they quote their sources are way different. Which actually leads me to question how do they actually understand the christian faith?
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James to answer your question- yes, I accept the CHC is a church as a opposed to cult. A cult in my view is something done in a clandestine way, or does some things in the open while hiding others.
Of course, you're considering the climate of 'infallibility' that some CHC members have for Kong Hee and others, which resonates with many cults, who hold their leaders as faultless, and those who oppose them as 'evil doers'.
That's always a danger, but I don't think the flock at CHC have been so thoroughly brain-washed, it's quite normal for worshippers to be defensive of the leaders. It takes a more rational person and discerning person, to question certain policies and directions their leaders are embarking and seek clarifications.
Unfortunately, some from the CHC, take the opposing view. Every question is not seen in good faith, but a 'vicious attack initiated by the devil', hell bent on destroying them.
In essence, if a body preaches the basic tenet of Christianity - belief in Christ as the Saviour of sins, through His death and resurrection, than that body fulfills the basic requirement of a church. I think CHC meets that and also is used a place of worship and encourages it's followers to spread the Good News of Salvation. So in that sense, I can fully accept them as a church in that context.
The problem some followers feel that faith is something you shouldn't question, and religious leaders speak directly from God. They don't understand that Christianity is a 'Living religion', questioning certain things doesn't mean you're unfaithful, rather it deepens your understanding and search for truth. Religious leaders are mere messengers, sometimes they can be wrong, but you only have to look and understand what God is trying to say, not what they are saying or doing.
God only requires you to love Him with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbour as yourself. He certainly doesn't require you to fight battles on His behalf. He wis well capable of judging for Himself.
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Hahaha - re-read Aneslayer's name in your initial post s - l - o - w - l - y. Guess it was a typo.
I am asking the same question:
How does CHC understand the Christian Faith? or What does Kong Hee teach?As mentioned before, I have been asking the same question without any answer. People get defensive immediately, as if this is some attack on their integrity. Strange. Visiting several services, and one cell group meeting (which is nothing more than a mini service with focus on offering) has not made me any wiser. It seems all based on a "feel good" experience rather than sound doctrine.
Doctrine? What doctrine?
With reference to past Saturday, after his usual plea for pity ("Your Pastor has been awake for 14 hours...) and self agrandissement ("I went to some conference where many great speakers were present, And I was invited to do the opening speechs), Kong Hee managed to translate the parabel of the prodigal son into a prosperity theme. Kong Hee started off quite well, talking about mercy and grace. But when he started to add his own interpretation, things became confusing. Many roads lead to Rome, yet in CHC all roads lead to giving money.
The final message: CHC must not be without rules like the younger son (rebelious) but we must also not be to strict like the older son (represented legalistic churches). What failed in the message was "How to do it right?" The "It's all about the relationship with Jesus leaves a lot to the imagination of the crowd. This vagenuess seems to be the storyline in the CHC Gospel.
Of course, any depth into the subject would lead very fast to a dead-end as when it comes to tithing and offerings, CHC acts like the older son whereas when it comes to "giving to the poor" they prefer the role of the younger son.
Any serious CHC member is welcome to comment, and show some fellow Christians the CHC way to salvation.
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Thanks JoeRay,
Your arguments make perfect sense.
I am not convinced yet that CHC teaches the right things, but that is my personal point of view. Maybe I only met the more fanatical one (I would say that Zeeleewong is a good representation of the people I met in CHC), and missed the services where the gospel was preached. So far the subject of the sermons covered (after 6 CHC services and 1 Cell group meeting) 1. Tithing and offering 2. The CHC organization 3. The life of Pastor Kong. (one exception to be mentioned: Dr. Robbi actually preached to be content and stop asking for stuff resulting in a rebuke by Pastor Kong because Robbi did not follow script)
I have difficulties with the continuous and consistent focus on money for a building (see my previous post on Martin Luther) versus CHC efforts to support the poor and the community. Is 7 cents on the dollar (per the last CHC published annual report in 2009) really the best they can do?
I will not enter a discussion whether tithing is still required. However, if the giving is free, and from the heart, why is it necessary to keep repeating the request to give? Why always after the "speaking in tongues" supported by appropriate music. Why not put a basket at the entrance and let the people decide freely? Would the people give less?
I am convinced that CHC could do a lot of good but they need to adjust their course. Reading the Epistles from Paul would be a good starting point, even if it causes CHC a few members, and they have to downgrade to a smaller building. Today, this would be considered loss of faith.
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John 2:12-25
Key verse 2:15-16
So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my father’s house into a market!”
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Biblical proof the CHC is a Church - I pasted my study notes for the scepticals:
Acts 2:4 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Bible Study Notes: Filled means full. God overflows everything he fills. Speaking in tongues is proof of Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:14-15 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!
Bible Study Notes: A true Church will get you to your feet. The Holy Ghost will set your feet a dancing. It wasn’t just Peter who stood, everyone got up. Everyone gets touched. Without the Holy Spirit a church falls apart, but with the Holy Spirit the church will stands united.
Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Bible Study Notes: Power is power to give (Money). In order to give we need money.
Biblical proof that prosperity is justified. (Lots more verses available):
Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles
Bible Study Notes: Abraham was rich. Jesus came to make us rich.
2 Cor 8:9 “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.”
Bible Study Notes: Proof that Jesus was rich but gave it away so we can become rich instead.
Mark 10:30 Who will not receive in this age a hundred times as much – homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, fields, all with persecutions – and in the age to come, eternal life.
Bible Study Notes: Comes after: "All things are possible with God"...God will return hundred times
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Bible Study Notes: speaks for itself. God tells us we well prosper and be in health. This must be financial health as spiritual "soul prospereth" is additional
God bless!
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
Biblical proof the CHC is a Church - I pasted my study notes for the scepticals:
Acts 2:4 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Bible Study Notes: Filled means full. God overflows everything he fills. Speaking in tongues is proof of Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:14-15 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!
Bible Study Notes: A true Church will get you to your feet. The Holy Ghost will set your feet a dancing. It wasn’t just Peter who stood, everyone got up. Everyone gets touched. Without the Holy Spirit a church falls apart, but with the Holy Spirit the church will stands united.
Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Bible Study Notes: Power is power to give (Money). In order to give we need money.
Biblical proof that prosperity is justified. (Lots more verses available):
Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles
Bible Study Notes: Abraham was rich. Jesus came to make us rich.
2 Cor 8:9 “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.”
Bible Study Notes: Proof that Jesus was rich but gave it away so we can become rich instead.
Mark 10:30 Who will not receive in this age a hundred times as much – homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, fields, all with persecutions – and in the age to come, eternal life.
Bible Study Notes: Comes after: "All things are possible with God"...God will return hundred times
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Bible Study Notes: speaks for itself. God tells us we well prosper and be in health. This must be financial health as spiritual "soul prospereth" is additional
God bless!
3 John 1:2 is a key verse (or proof text) used by proponents to support the "Health and Wealth Gospel". The NET Bible translates it this way, "Dear friend, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, just as it is well with your soul."
While some translations use the word "prosper" the question is whether it has a financial connotation to it. A key problem I see is that H&W proponents see the word "prosper" and quite automatically tend to equate it primarily with the meaning of "Huat Ah!" aka monetary terms. But does the context demands it? Or is this merely being read into it by H&W proponents?
The Greek word is εá½�οδοῦσθαι (euodousthai) which means "to have a prosperous journey" http://biblelexicon.org/3_john/1-2.htm which is derived from the word εá½�οδοω which occurs only four times in the New Testament (cf. Romans 1:10; I Corinthians 16:2; twice in III John 2), and in each case the conventional meaning is employed; specifically, success in one’s journey or passage in life, including anything in which a believer might legitimately engage. In none of the passages is the word used primarily to express the intent of economic success (i.e., financial prosperity).
It is more of a general greeting as when we say "Hi there! Hope all is well with you and that you are in good health!" Nothing in such a salutation conveys any theology of health and wealth at all.
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So many interpretations.
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"...and also, i believe the bible shld be read and interpreted as a whole... not by quoting several short verses."
The word is consistency... Jesus is consistent in his preaching of love. He is also consistent in preaching against attachment to wordly treasures...
"...if anelslayer is also of christian faith. Apparently, zee(from CHC) thinks that anyone who opposes them are satan's followers. That so, if someone like anelslayer who posts questions on CHC but is still a believer of christian faith,how is that considered?"
I'd offer my help to those I think is lost... not by ignoring them or thinking they are of a "lost" case...
" ... the way they quote their sources are way different. Which actually leads me to question how do they actually understand the christian faith?"
By reading the bible and memorizing all the verses front to back, back to front, not. Its simple... having an interest in Jesus, setting him up as a role model, and read up his words and works. For Christians, Jesus IS the ONLY acknowledged redemption.
"Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Bible Study Notes: Power is power to give (Money). In order to give we need money."
And you'd empower Money... Are you aware that its akin to setting up an idol of gold and silver?
"Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles
Bible Study Notes: Abraham was rich. Jesus came to make us rich."
Rich spiritually... There's no legacy of Abraham to the Gentiles except those in the heavens...
"2 Cor 8:9 “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.”
Bible Study Notes: Proof that Jesus was rich but gave it away so we can become rich instead."
Remember consistency... remember how Jesus suffered on the cross... please don't cheapen our Lord's ultimate sacrifice by using it to justify empowering money...
"29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Bible Study Notes: Comes after: "All things are possible with God"...God will return hundred times"
Is it truly for Jesus? The focus is on Jesus, not the ROI... (Return on Investment)
"3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Bible Study Notes: speaks for itself. God tells us we well prosper and be in health. This must be financial health as spiritual "soul prospereth" is additional"
Disputable translation and interpretations on the opening salutations...
I liked the cafe... but the coffee is not cheap instead of free... :)
P.S. My rage meter is building up... and its not about being called anal, because I can be at times.
I feel alive again...
Edit: Thanks BroInChrist ... for elaborating 3John 1:2
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Originally posted by charlize:
So many interpretations.
i interpreted i am god
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Bible Study Notes: speaks for itself. God tells us we well prosper and be in health. This must be financial health as spiritual "soul prospereth" is additional
I find it somewhat odd and even unbelievable that the Good Lord would be more concerned that we prosper financially ahead of other things, and that 'spiritual health' is more of an add on!
Rather I would think He would want us to strengthen our souls with His Spirit, and be in communion with Him, ahead of everything else.
Not that he would deny us the right to be richer materially, provided it doesn't direct us away from His Will and Word.
Whether we are rich or poor, doesn't matter to Him, what's more important is our spiritual well being and obedience to Him. If He was so concerned about our financial health, he would make every single Christian richer or far better off, than those who don't believe in Him. He wouldn't let Chirstians be poor or face hardships, be it natural, man made or Divinely ordained.
Instead He asks to welcome trials and tribulations in His name, and that our reward for doing so will be great in heaven.
I don't know what exactly transpires at CHC, and what the main focus of its message is, whether CHC is badly misunderstood by outsiders, when in fact it's a really super organisation that goes out of its way to preach the Good News.
But I do know that every member should not be afraid to contradict, question, ask or opt out of things they find difficult to reconcile with their faith. They should realise the CHC is only a vehicle, not a direct replacement of the Holy Spirit.
If you're giving or others are encouraged to give, in order to reap rewards many times over, then I believe you're on the wrong track, and your reward, if any, is only earthly. But if give because you genuinely want to further the Good News and help the poor, the needy and the sick, then your reward would be far greater in the Kingdom of Heaven to come.
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No money how to go to heaven ?
How?
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when there's a will, there's a way
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Originally posted by charlize:
No money how to go to heaven ?
How?
No money means condemned by god?
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Damn sad when people think religion is for enriching yourself with money and material things.
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hey hey
times are bad
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JoeRaj,
We are on the same page. My concern is that organizations quickly call themselves Christian and appear geniune. As a consequence, many Christians jump quickly to defend CHC, especially when non believers start abusing, without even knowing what is teaches. My personal experiences with CHC raise a lot of questions. The non stop focus on Kong Hee and the money cannot be healthy. The methods used to raise money, and everybody must have seen the multiple videos by now, are they not the modern version of the Pharisees? Seeing a 16 year old, emptying her purse in a bucket with tears in her ever, in front of the camera for everybody to see, is a very disturbing sight. In CHC this is called "giving freely from the heart".
I doubt my friend turned from rational engineer to irresponsible giver just based on CHC's good works. All we can do, as BroInChrist advices me some time ago, is point out the flaws in the doctrine. Or not defend something we do not understand.
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I read the nasty comments. I love Pastor Kong even more. You try to confuse, I only get stronger. If you choose to contradict Pastor Kong, and judge his teachings, fine! How bout "Thou shall not judge"?
In the end, you have your faith and we have ours. God will judge. None of you hypocrites will turn our family away from Pastor Kong. Pastor Kong and Pastor Sun are our parents. We are one family. We look out for each other.
Do know Pastor Kong? Do you know Pastor Kong dedicates his life for us? We thank him by trusting him with all our heart. Why would I listen to you? Pastor Kong is studying the Bible since 6 year old. Do you really think you know better than Pastor Kong? Pastor Kong is building a church and is reaching out to hundred thousands of people around the world. Do you know about the hardship he has to endure? Pastor Kong must stand strong against attacks from people like yourselves. Did you know he suffered a severe depression because of the investigations? God spoke to Pastor Kong many times, thanking him for the good works. How can you place yourself above God? Do you call yourself a Christian?
What have you accomplished? All of you are all talk talk no dial tone. While you persist in being poor, we will become rich to support the poor. God bless Pastor Kong and Pastor Sun.
God bless!
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Perhaps the following links may be helpful to discern a cult http://www.letusreason.org/cults.htm
But I think it may also be useful to distinguish between a cult (which denies core doctrines but claim the label of Christian) and a group with cultic tendencies (which may affirm core doctrines but manifest certain sociological traits of cults).
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
I read the nasty comments. I love Pastor Kong even more. You try to confuse, I only get stronger. If you choose to contradict Pastor Kong, and judge his teachings, fine! How bout "Thou shall not judge"?
In the end, you have your faith and we have ours. God will judge. None of you hypocrites will turn our family away from Pastor Kong. Pastor Kong and Pastor Sun are our parents. We are one family. We look out for each other.
Do know Pastor Kong? Do you know Pastor Kong dedicates his life for us? We thank him by trusting him with all our heart. Why would I listen to you? Pastor Kong is studying the Bible since 6 year old. Do you really think you know better than Pastor Kong? Pastor Kong is building a church and is reaching out to hundred thousands of people around the world. Do you know about the hardship he has to endure? Pastor Kong must stand strong against attacks from people like yourselves. Did you know he suffered a severe depression because of the investigations? God spoke to Pastor Kong many times, thanking him for the good works. How can you place yourself above God? Do you call yourself a Christian?
What have you accomplished? All of you are all talk talk no dial tone. While you persist in being poor, we will become rich to support the poor. God bless Pastor Kong and Pastor Sun.
God bless!
if "thou shall not judge" is to be practiced then why is CHC judging ppl who are non followers as satan's followers? Pastor kong and Pastor sun are your parents? How about your real mum and dad? Is it ok to really place the pastors in such high aspect? As you have said, pastor kong must stand against strong attacks and suffered a severe depression. How severe is severe? you shall it for yourself how he acted like in the depression or the message was merely conveyed that he had a depression?
I believe alot of things cannot be taken at face value and for christianity teachings, i believe BIC is right that the doctrine shld always be referred, re examined to learn things from picking. Picking out a few verses or 1 or 2 text is so easily twisted. I believe that zee you as CHC follower, speaking of christian faith, the first thing to not do is to exclude others and label them. i believe god says to spread love, which i tink is to embrace all, not to embrace only your kind or that anyone who opposes you(CHC) are labelled as other "beings"
You questioned others whether they are christians, is that name impt or the faith is more impt? Are you really following the christian faith as taught?
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wa finally i see BIC here :)
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
I read the nasty comments. I love Pastor Kong even more. You try to confuse, I only get stronger. If you choose to contradict Pastor Kong, and judge his teachings, fine! How bout "Thou shall not judge"?
In the end, you have your faith and we have ours. God will judge. None of you hypocrites will turn our family away from Pastor Kong. Pastor Kong and Pastor Sun are our parents. We are one family. We look out for each other.
Do know Pastor Kong? Do you know Pastor Kong dedicates his life for us? We thank him by trusting him with all our heart. Why would I listen to you? Pastor Kong is studying the Bible since 6 year old. Do you really think you know better than Pastor Kong? Pastor Kong is building a church and is reaching out to hundred thousands of people around the world. Do you know about the hardship he has to endure? Pastor Kong must stand strong against attacks from people like yourselves. Did you know he suffered a severe depression because of the investigations? God spoke to Pastor Kong many times, thanking him for the good works. How can you place yourself above God? Do you call yourself a Christian?
What have you accomplished? All of you are all talk talk no dial tone. While you persist in being poor, we will become rich to support the poor. God bless Pastor Kong and Pastor Sun.
God bless!
The Bible does not forbid judging, but it does warn against hypocritical, false or malicious judging of each other. We can't throw caution to the wind when it comes to leaders who wield great influence over those who follow. Even the Bereans had to check Paul's teachings against the Word of God. Regardless of how one perceives of Kong Hee's character and person, one must still be a noble Berean and examine his teachings under the light of Scripture. But I do understand that those already in the H&W movement have been taught (or conditioned?) to read and interpret Scriptures in a certain light, or bias. Or to react to criticism in a certain way, for example, to accuse those who critique the teachings as judging or touching God's anointed. Or to evade/downplay the issue of controversial doctrines and highlight the good things done by the leaders or the churches.
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@ Zeeleewong: You never cease to amaze me. The least I can say is that you strongly believer in whatever that might be.
@BroInChrist
Thank you for the link. True, the word cult is not very specific, and very negative on top of that. Distinguishing makes sense but is hard to do. Cult's like Heaven's Gate started of as a pentacostal church. Only on hindsight, after the alledged suicides, they were identified as a cult.When you told me in "What happened to CHC dishonesty case, to look at sound doctrine, I think you were right. Rather than asking the question: Is CHC a cult, or have cultic traits?
We migth have a more productive discussion when asking:
Is CHC a Christian Church? or Where does CHC deviate from sound Christian doctrine? (This also means I was wrong with my topic alluding to CHC as destructive cult)
However, the discussion will always be one-sided if we do not get CHC members to participate, and elaborate on their point of view, even if only offline. Me visiting CHC, despite efforts, can not be called objective as a start with a very negative experience.
I do not consider Zeeleewong, no offense intended, to be suitable to take the role of CHC spokesmen. In my view she is the only one causing "damage" to CHC's reputation. Regrettably, so far, I only met Zeeleewong's in CHC, and this includes the Pastor that did the introduction interview.
As Alize mentioned before, maybe I am too confrontational.
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Any CHC members out there who wish to share their belief with other Christians?